In the following darsanas and morning walks, our most worshipful Srila Gurudeva, Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, discusses a bit about guru-tattva, and in most of them he discusses with his sannyasis regarding their giving initiations. In these discussions he tells them:
- He is allowing all sannyasis (and senior devotees) who think themselves qualified.
- He is leaving it up to the personal discretion of each individual sannyasi as to whether or not that sannyasi thinks himself qualified to initiate. If the sannyasi thinks himself qualified but is actually a kanistha-adhikari, he will fall down.
- The minimum requirement to initiate is madhyama-adhikari, preferably madhyama-madhyama; still better is madhyama-uttama, and best is uttama (who is playing the role of madhyama). Uttama is very rare, whereas madhyama is more available.
- The disciple should see his guru as uttama-adhikari, otherwise he cannot advance, and therefore one should take the time to consider before accepting him. If the guru is not actually uttama, Krsna and Balarama and Nityananda Prabhu, as akhanda-guru-tattva, will accept the worship and fulfill the prayers of that sincere disciple. They will make arrangements for him to advance. They may arrange for him to connect with an uttama Vaisnava, or self-realized, sad-guru.
- Many more things.
The darsanas and walk excerpts are presented in chronological order, and they are edited for grammatical clarity.
1. Badger Morning Walk Excerpts
June 20, 2007
Baladeva dasa: We understand from scripture that sri guru is present everywhere. It is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.2.2): “Tam sarva-bhuta-hrdayam munim anato ‘smi. [I offer my respectful obeisances unto that great sage Sukadeva Gosvami, who can enter the hearts of all.”]
So, what is the difference between my asking in an internal prayer to gurudeva to remove all obstacles to my bhakti – like lust, anger, greed illusion, madness, and bewilderment – and asking him directly, face to face, to remove them?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If the guru is on the level of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, there is no need of asking face to face. Guru is a manifestation of Krsna, and therefore he is powerful enough that his response will inspire your heart. If the guru is not of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami’s caliber and is a madhyama-adhikari (an intermediate devotee), then Krsna will fulfill the disciple’s desire on behalf of that guru.
Brajanath dasa: What if the disciple prays to the qualified guru, and he also wants to ask in person?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: That is also good; but if he is far away and cannot ask in person and he earnestly prays within his heart, the reply will come.
Radha-kanta dasa: Srila Gurudeva, it is said that the guru gives the conception of sambandha-jnana (one’s eternal relationship with Krsna) when he gives diksa-mantras to the disciple. If the guru is only on the madhyama (intermediate) platform and the understanding of his own and his disciple’s svarupa, or eternal form, is not complete, then what conception can he give?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: First understand that at the time of diksa, all kinds of anarthas are eradicated and one’s relationship with Krsna is realized. Nowadays, however, diksa is not actual (vidvat-rudhi). *[see endnote 1] Rather, in the ordinary diksa of present days, gurudeva is giving only some qualification to the disciple to begin his diksa process. Later, when the disciple’s relationship is realized, at that time his diksa is actual.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Radha-kanta prabhu’s question is this: If a madhyama-adhikari has no realization of his own relation with Krsna, then how can he give this?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: He can give something, even though he does not have that realization. Then, in this life, or in future lives, the disciple will find a perfect guru; and by surrendering to that perfect guru he will be able to realize his relationship with Krsna.
Radha-kanta dasa: So ultimately we have to take siksa from an uttama-bhagavat (topmost devotee)?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: You cannot realize who is an uttama Vaisnava in your present stage. When you become a madhyama-uttama Vaisnava (the highest level of madhyama, just prior to the uttama Vaisnava stage), then you will be able to realize.
Gokula dasa (from Australia): Can’t an uttama-adhikari make you realize? *[See endnote 2]
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Yes, he can. He knows a disciple’s level of qualification, and he gives his mercy accordingly. A father places weight upon his son’s head according to his son’s capacity; not more than that. Guru does this as well.
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Sripad Nemi Maharaja: You were saying that nowadays one’s diksa is not vidvat-rudhi. It is merely giving some adhikari, or qualification for later advancement. So is the bona fide guru simply giving some adhikara, or is he giving full diksa?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: The guru gives an opportunity for the disciples to begin their diksa process. We see in Jaiva-dharma that when Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha took diksa, they at once realized and saw Gauracandra (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu). Nowadays, the diksa initiations are not of that caliber.
Sripad Sajjana Maharaja: Is it that the madhyama-guru gives instructions, thereby giving their disciples sukrti (spiritual merits); and then, when the disciple follows these instructions he will get the association of the topmost devotees?
Srila Gurudeva: A disciple should always think, “My Gurudeva is an uttama-adhikari and an associate of Sri Krsna.”
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Otherwise he cannot advance.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: He should think like that. In the Bhagavad-gita there is a sloka which states that if anyone is worshipping the demigods, the fruit of that worship is given by Krsna, because the demigods have no power to give that fruit. Suppose you worship grass or straw, thinking, “I am worshipping Krsna.” That straw is not Krsna, but if you think, “Krsna is here, I am worshipping Him,” He will know this and sprinkle His mercy upon you at once.
Vidvat-rudhi refers to an internal initiation wherein the disciple completely gives his heart at his guru’s lotus feet, knowing that his guru will make him qualified to serve Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Gurudeva gives all kinds of divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge, about krsna-tattva, guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, and prema-tattva. (Pinnacle of Devotion, in the section called “The Glories of Sadhu-Sanga,” by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja)
*Endnote 2: Uttama-adhikari, uttama Vaisnava, and uttama-bhagavat are different terms for the topmost devotee. -ed
2. Two Vrndavana Darsanas
Discussions on Future Initiations
Gopinatha Bhavan, Vrndavana, India: Nov. 10, 2007
Sripad Bhagavata Maharaja: We want to take all headaches from you. We don’t want you to have any headaches.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: But I think that I have no headache. I am very happy to preach all over the world, and all sincere persons are coming by love and affection. I want that you will all continue after me. Do everything like me – with love and affection – not by controlling.
Sripad Bhagavata Maharaja: ‘After me’ will be after a long time.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Very soon I will tell my preachers who are preaching in different areas that I will not go to those areas to initiate; so they should give harinama and also diksa, and thus continue. After me, and also while I am still in this world, I will allow all to preach and make disciples in their area.
But do not be like ISKCON leaders. They quarrel with Vaisnavas and don’t give honor to them; especially to senior Vaisnavas. I want everyone to give respect to seniors, whether those seniors are grhasthas or sannyasis. I request the sannyasis not to think, “The grhasthas are controlling us. They should not come.”
Problems always come, and they will come in the future also. At the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada there were so many problems, and my Gurudeva even had to go to jail. But pure Vaisnavas always keep their feet on the head of problems, and I do that as well. Problems come, but I keep my feet on the head of problems.
In ISKCON, almost all sannyasis have gone down and left sannyasa. Then, again, new ones are coming, and again making their pockets heavy. Still, to this day, I have no bank account, nor do I keep even one paise. Brajanath and Radha-kanta and Yasodananda have accounts, but I do not. I have something in pocket, but not in my pocket. Everything is in the pockets of Madhava Maharaja and Brajanath, and Brajanath keeps all the accounts.
I have not done anything for myself; I have not kept even one paisa or shilling. You should all be selfless like me, following in the footsteps of what I have done for the mission – preaching, making preaching centers here and there, and helping others.
I also want a ladies’ ashram for ladies who are orphaned (who have left their home and family); either here in Gopinath Bhavan or outside. Also, I want a school in Vrndavana for the children of devotees.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Why are you worried?
Kisori Mohana dasa: I am worried because two days ago, after the meeting, you said very clearly, “I will stop travelling. My disciples, the preachers, will be travelling everywhere, and they will be giving harinama and diksa.” And then you said, “They will make their own disciples.” My worry is that everything I have heard from you for the last eleven years about the qualities of guru, guru-tattva, who can give diksa, and what is the definition of diksa – it seems like it was all smashed to pieces at that moment.
I want to understand from you how someone can give diksa who does not have realization of his own relationship with Krsna and who cannot see the svarupa (form) of the soul. I don’t understand.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: You should not be worried about that. (Indicating some Western sannyasis in the room) Those sannyasis who are preaching my mission everywhere are madhyama-adhikari. I think they will not deviate.… I have that faith. Only a few went, like Prema Prayojana, but I have no doubt about these sannyasis. The Indian sannyasis like Vana Maharaja, Tirtha Maharaja, and Madhava Maharaja are qualified, and they are also madhyama-adhikari.
For my Gurudeva, I am giving initiation, diksa, and even sannyasa. So, I want that, in my lifetime, those who are qualified should do the same. Thus our parampara will continue. I would like that.
If they are madhyama-adhikari, they can give initiation even if they have no realization. I have been giving initiation for the past forty years, since our Guru Maharaja ordered me to do so. We should obey our holy master, our spiritual master. But I also want them to be qualified.
I have not told this for the grhastha-bhaktas. I have said this for these sannyasis – that after some time, in my lifetime, I am allowing them to initiate. After some time I will stop travelling, and if I have energy, I will write books as I am doing now. You should all preach my mission. And at some time, if I’m okay, I may go one time to America, or one time somewhere in the East.
Brajanath dasa: Gurudeva, but you will also continue to accept disciples.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Oh, one thing more. They are going to all the places, but if any devotee wants that] “I will take diksa and harinama from Maharaja.…”
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: From Gurudeva.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: They will come to me, and I will initiate them.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Direct or by phone; in some way he will give.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: But those who are satisfied by them should take initiation from them.
Kisori Mohana dasa: But how do we continue to preach guru-tattva – pure guru-tattva?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: They will preach as I preach guru-tattva.
Madhava Maharaja: Gurudeva is saying, “If they want, they can take initiation from me.” Gurudeva is happy to give them initiation.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Yes. I will give. But if they are satisfied by the sannyasis, oh, no harm.
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: Srila Gurudeva, Kisori Mohan’s concern is that our siddhanta, and what we have heard from you, is that the bhakti-lata-bija (the seed of devotion) and one’s relationship with Krsna can only come from a Vaisnava who is on that high-level uttama stage. What will the disciple be receiving if he receives diksa from a lower Vaisnava – a madhyama or.…?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: By the order of Gurudeva, the disciple acts like a postman. The postman gives money, money orders, and everything else, but that money is not his. Similarly, that ‘money’ is Gurudeva’s, and thus he is distributing to all.
They can take what I am saying in this sense. They should not think, “I am guru.”
Sripad Bhagavata Maharaja: Last year in Vamsi-vata you told me that only the vraja-rasika-uttama-adhikari (the self realized guru who is an associate of Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana) can give the bhakti-lata-bija.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: It is true. It is true.
Bhagavata Maharaja: Then I asked you, “Can one who is coming up from kanistha to madhyama give that bija?” You said, “No.” But are you saying now that if you give the order to that madhyama, then…
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Like a peon (postman) he should give initiation.
Sripad Bhagavata Maharaja: It will come by that order?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If he follows the order sincerely, then Krsna realization may come.
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: Gurudeva, you are saying it is true – you just said it is true – that only the uttama-mahabhagavata can give the bija. Is that true, or not true?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: It is true.
Padmanabha Maharaja: So the madhyama cannot give it.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If the madhyama is sincere, he can inspire them for that. He will tell all these things to him, and inspire them for that krsna-seva-vasana to come. [krsna-seva-vasana is the desire to serve Krsna purely, the seed of which is the symptom of the bhakti-lata-bija.]
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: But in some lifetime that disciple will have to receive initiation directly from the uttama-bhakta? Otherwise, it is not possible to actually receive it.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Don’t have any doubt or worry. They should follow what I’m telling them. They should not think, “I am guru.”
(To Syamarani dasi) What do you want to tell?
Syamarani dasi: When we go to preach, we tell people, “Surrender to Sri Guru.” Suppose the disciple thinks, “Yes, my guru, Padmanabha Maharaja, is Sri Guru, that very guru who is talked about in sastra.”
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: When I am not alive, what will happen?
Syamarani dasi: Won’t there be another one coming like you?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If I leave this planet, what will happen? Will everyone stop giving and taking initiation? What will they do?
Syamarani dasi: I am just speaking by siddhanta.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: No, no. I want to ask you, “When I leave this planet, what will they do? Will they initiate, or not?”
Syamarani dasi: Whatever you desire, of course. But isn’t there another uttama-adhikari always present on the planet who one should search for?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: I think that whether I will tell them to do so or not, they must [will definately] initiate.
Syamarani dasi: “They will anyway,” you are saying?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: I know. So, why not beginning from my lifetime?
In his last days, Srila Sridhara Maharaja stopped giving initiation, and when anyone came to him he told them, “Go to Govinda Maharaja.” But during my lifetime, if someone really only wants to take initiation from me, I will initiate him.
Syamarani dasi: It was just a question about our preaching.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: They may tell the candidates for initiation, “Your main guru is Maharaja.” They may say this during my lifetime. They are free to initiate, or to send the candidates to me; no harm.
(Stretching out the word ‘worried’) Don’t be w o r r r i e e e e d.
3. Govardhana Darsana Excerpt
Some Rule and Regulation for New Gurus
November 4, 2008
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: But I want that there should be some rule and regulation. There should be no quarrel among yourselves. If any devotee wants to take harinama from Padmanabha Maharaja, but Nemi Maharaja or anyone is telling again, again, and gives them diksa and harinama, then this is not okay. Do you understand?
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: No, Gurudeva.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Gurudeva wants to tell that if someone wants to take from you, but other devotees say, “Don’t. He is bad, don’t go to him, Take from me.” Like this…
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: Oh, telling against him.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Now understand?
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: Yes.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: What did I tell?
Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja: Yeah, that if someone wants to take harinama, let’s say from Asrama Maharaja, but then Sajjana Maharaja is telling that devotee, “No, no, no, don’t go to Asrama Maharaja. Take from me.” So this….
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: In case he will do this, first time, warning. And second time, then his giving diksa should be stopped by a general body.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: I thought nobody can control guru.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: What?
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Guru is asraya-tattva. Guru – acarya mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit [“The acarya is to be considered as My very self. No one should disrespect him.”] How can a general body control…?
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: No, Gurudeva wants to say that suppose someone wants to take initiation from you, but Padmanabha Maharaja and myself, or another, says to him, “Don’t go to him. He’s bad, African, black person. Don’t go to him.” Then, first there will be a warning. Second time, his giving initiation will be stopped.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: But my question is that guru is a transcendental position, not to be controlled. How can guru be controlled by a body?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: What?
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Guru. How can guru be controlled by a body?
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Commission.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Maybe the commission is made up of baddha-jivas, and guru himself – his disciples are thinking he is liberated.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Now I am present, and I am giving power to that general body so that if any sannyasi is doing like so, he must be stopped. Like ISKCON is doing.
Brajanath dasa: Maharaja, if a sannyasi says, “He is bad,” then that sannyasi who says that, he is not…
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: He will be banned from giving initiation.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Otherwise there will be quarrels among yourselves, and you will be separated.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Now understand, Maharaja?
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Yeah, I understand, understand.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: Who is blaspheming and telling, “Oh, don’t go to him. He is bad,” that sannyasi will be banned from giving initiation.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sannyasi will be banned.
4. Italy Morning Walk Excerpts
On Future Initiations
July 6, 2010
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Srila Gurudeva, it is stated [in Padma Purana], sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā matāḥ. The mantra is meant for one to achieve the goal of bhava, and ultimately prema. If a kanistha-adhikari gives this mantra to a disciple, is there any effect?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: A kanistha-adhikari should not do so. He should take that person to a high-class Vaisnava to be initiated.
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: A kanistha can be a vartma-pradarsaka guru (the guru who shows the path; who brings the candidate to the bona fide, self-realized guru)
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: So, in a case where a kanistha-adhikari gives the mantra to a disciple, is there no effect?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If he does this, what is there to say? Many kanisthas are doing this.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Somebody may say that because in some societies there are no high-class Vaisnavas, there is a need for kanisthas to give initiation.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: In fact, even those who haven’t reached the level of kanistha-adhikari – those with no adhikari at all – are giving ‘initiation.’
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: So, the fruit is not bhakti?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Millions of persons are doing this. Those with nothing, not even the qualification of kanistha, are doing this, and nothing can be done about it.
Sripad Sudadvaiti Maharaja: But will the fruit of this initiation be bhakti, or sukrti only? The disciples will not get bhakti; is this correct?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: The result will be nothing.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Gurudeva, in the Upadesamrta of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja, at the end of purport five, he says not to take a guru if he is not uttama-adhikari; he also says “Don’t become guru if you are not uttama-adhikari.” Then he says that both the kanistha-adhikari and madhyama-adhikari may also take disciples, but that such disciples cannot make much progress due to insufficient guidance. The question is this: Below which level would you say that one should not venture to take disciples?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: It is not written anywhere. But I think that, at the least, one requires the qualification of a madhyama-madhyama devotee in order to give initiation. [See Endnote]
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Does his giving of the diksa-mantra have the power to give divya-jnana?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: It is not as powerful as if Narada would give it. If Narada gives initiation, at once, in a second, divya-jnana will manifest. But we are not like him.
Sripad Nemi Maharaja: What are the symptoms of a madhyama-madhyama-adhikari, Srila Gurudeva?
Sripad Madhava Maharaja: He is asking what is the qualification of a madhyama-madhyama? Is it ruci, or asakti, or nistha, or what?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Up to asakti. And, if bhava comes…
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: The definition of divya-jnana is that the guru is putting the form of Bhagavan in the heart by the mantra, like a seed. From that seed manifests bhagavat sambandha visesa jnanam ca [from Bhakti-sandarbha], meaning specific realized knowledge of one’s relationship with Bhagavan. At which level can guru know this?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If I know, and you know, why will that madhyama-madhyama not know? [Here, he is pretending to be like us, saying that he and we and the madhyama-madhyama guru may have varying degrees of theoretical knowledge of one’s particular relationship with Krsna. -ed] However, realization of that knowledge will come at bhava. Without bhava, or rati, realization will not come; but even that level the realization will be as though ‘covered with glass.’
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: So, does ‘up to asakti’ mean ruci? Is ruci not madhyama-madhyama? ‘Up to asakti’ begins from where? [From Pinnacle of Devotion, in the chapter entitled “The Role of Siksa-guru” (footnote to the word ‘prema’ in ‘prema maitre, krpa, upeksa’): “Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura writes in his Srimad-Bhagavatam commentary that a madhyama-adhikari cannot have real prema. But by thinking of how the gopis loved Krsna, he may receive a shadow of their prema. Thus he jachieves the level of asakti, attachment for Krsna.”]
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Ruci.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: (To Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja) He didn’t say ruci with his mouth. You said ruci.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: (To Sripad Asrama Maharaja) But it is understood in all sastra.
Brajanath dasa: Gurudeva said, “Asakti.”
Sripad Sridhara Maharaja: If we look closely, we see that so many gurus take disciples although those gurus’ anarthas have not gone. They have not passed anartha-nrvrtti, yet they are taking disciples. How can they do this?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Nowadays there is no consideration of qualification at all – nothing. All are allowed to give, especially unqualified persons.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Srila Gurudeva, you said, “Up to asakti.” Do you mean nistha-ruci madhyama-madhyama, or only ruci-asakti madhyama-madhyama? [When Srila Gurudeva said ‘up to asakti,’ he meant that the guru must have already reached up to the stage of asakti. He must already be on the stage of asakti. -ed]
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: What is it that you continue to ask (ki sab)?
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: If one is not madhyama-madhyama and he gives diksa, what reaction will he receive?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Good result (gati); there is no harm in this. Krsna will do what is needful.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: No, I am not referring to the madhyama-madhyama. I am asking about one who is less than that.
Brajanath dasa: What is the result of an unqualified guru giving diksa?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: He should be qualified.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: But what if he is unqualified? Then?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: What will be the result? You know.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Me? Oh, please; don’t do this to me. Don’t do this to me.
Sripad Suddhadvaita Maharaja: So madhyama-madhyama begins at ruci; yes?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Do you know the meaning of mana (honor) and summana (honor, or respect)?
The desire for these things will grow. That unqualified person will thus think, “I am the only guru,” and then he will fall down.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: I have a question on guru-tattva. Maharaja is asking me to ask this question. Yesterday you explained that if a kanistha-adhikari gives diksa, the result is zero. But it has been said that you previously mentioned that if the kanistha-adhikari who is giving diksa is himself taking siksa from a higher devotee, this system might be okay.
My question is this: What is the need for a kanistha-adhikari to give diksa if he can directly send that person to the higher devotee, and he himself just helps with instruction?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: The kanistha-adhikari should not give diksa. He should take the candidates to the uttama-adhikari.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Somebody said that you mentioned once before that this system may be okay. I just wanted it confirmed.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: But it is better to take them to the uttama-adhikari.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: What if there is no maha-bhagavat available in our sanga?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Madhyama.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Madhyama; madhyama-madhyama.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Madhyama is available everywhere.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Everywhere?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: (To Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja) You yourself can give diksa.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Why are you cheating me now?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Nemi Maharaja, and you, and all. One day you will have to give diksa; today or tomorrow.
Sannyasi: Next life.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Better to start now.
Sripad Sudhadvaiti Maharaja: Double cheating now.
Brajanath dasa: They are inviting.
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: They can all do it.
What are the symptoms of madhyama-adhikārī? You need to know these symptoms before accepting a dīkṣā or śikṣā-guru. If you do not see these symptoms, then do not accept a person as guru. Otherwise, there will be so many difficulties in your devotional life. If that guru falls down, your life will be ruined and you will cry bitterly. The first symptom of the bona fide guru is this:
tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta
jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam
śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ
brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam
Srimad-Bhagavatam, 11.3.21
Any person who is seriously desirous of achieving real happiness must seek out a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of a spiritual master is that he must have realized the conclusion of the scriptures by deliberation and arguments and thus be able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken complete shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understood as bona fide spiritual masters.
Though all symptoms should be there in full, two are prominent. The first symptom is śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy; the guru has complete knowledge of the scriptures. The second symptom is upaśamāśrayam; he is detached from material desires. He is always so happy serving Śrī Kṛṣṇa. If he is unhappy and feels that his life has so many problems, then he is not qualified to be guru. Haridāsa Ṭhākura was beaten in twenty-two marketplaces, almost to the point of death, but he did not consider this a problem. He kept chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa. Prahlāda Mahārāja was tortured by his father, yet he never felt he had a problem. Rather, he stood on the head of all problems.
A guru who chants and performs the nine processes of bhakti, and who has taken dīkṣā but who laments that he has so many problems – that his wife has cheated him, his children are not with him, he cannot manage or make money, or that he has no computer or no sufficient material facility – should be rejected at once.
The third symptom of guru is that he is realized in kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Without having this realization, because he still has material desires, he is bound to fall. Besides these three symptoms, a madhyama-adhikārī will have four additional qualities. The uttama-adhikārī is of course superior and offers a superior result in bhakti, but such a guru is rare in this world. In the absence of such an uttama-guru, the madhyama-adhikārī can be accepted as a śikṣā or dīkṣā-guru.
But one should see whether or not he has the following four qualities:
1) prema – He has love and affection for Kṛṣṇa. (Gurudeva’s footnote to this word: Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura writes in his Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam commentary that a madhyama-adhikārī cannot have real prema. But by thinking of how the gopīs loved Kṛṣṇa, he may receive a shadow of their prema. Thus he achieves the level of āsakti, attachment for Kṛṣṇa.)
2) maitre – He shows friendship towards and offers…(etc.) (from Pinnacle of Devotion, Chapter entitled “The Role of Siksa-Guru”)
5. If Guru Is Not Uttama
If Guru Is Not Uttama
Vrndavana, India: September 19, 1992
Syamarani dasi: In your recent discussions on Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 21, you mention that Vrajanatha and Vijaya-kumara understood that they could only attain perfection by getting diksa from an uttama-adhikari. Our god-brothers in ISKCON may not be uttama-adhikari, but they are giving diksa. How will their disciples achieve perfection? By sending them to you for further guidance?
Srila Gurudeva: Diksa-guru must be qualified; Or, siksa-guru must be qualified. We cannot achieve perfection without a qualified guru.
Syamarani dasi: ‘Qualified’ refers to an uttama-bhakta?
Srila Gurudeva: Certainly he must be more advanced than us. He must be more advanced than that sadhaka.
Syamarani dasi: What would be the general procedure, then, for the disciples of our god-brothers?
Srila Gurudeva: They will gradually develop in this birth, and then in the next birth, and then in the birth after that.
Syamarani dasi: What about the situation wherein the diksa-guru is madhyama-adhikari, but that madhyama guru can direct their disciples to an uttama siksa-guru? In that case, can the disciple attain perfection even with a madhyama diksa-guru?
Srila Gurudeva: Krsna will arrange everything.
Syamarani dasi: How does Krsna work it out?
Srila Gurudeva: He sees what is needed in the disciple’s heart. If the disciple is a sadhaka, then Krsna will make arrangements. If the disciple is not a sadhaka but only a disciple – simply thinking “I am a disciple,” but not following bhakti, then Krsna will not do anything.
Syamarani dasi: What do you mean by the word sadhaka?
Srila Gurudeva: Those who have greed are sadhaka. [“When transcendental devotional service, by which love for Krsna is attained, is executed by the senses, it is called sadhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila, 22.105).]
Syamarani dasi: If a sadhaka can connect with a siksa-guru who is an uttama-bhakta, they can attain perfection in that way?
Srila Gurudeva: How did you come to me?
Syamarani dasi: By your mercy and our Prabhupada’s mercy.
Srila Gurudeva: How?
Syamarani dasi: By Aditya’s mercy (a god-sister).
Srila Gurdueva: Who made this arrangement?
Syamarani dasi: Krsna.
Srila Gurudeva: Then certainly Krsna will make whatever arrangement is required.
Jagatarini dasi: What do you mean by ‘disciple’?
Srila Gurudeva: He calls himself a disciple, but he has no greed. He is not seriously doing anything for his advancement in bhakti.
Jagatarini dasi: It is just a formality? He is not serious and not interested in advancement?
Srila Gurudeva: He does not actually want to improve.
Syamarani dasi: So, even if one’s diksa-guru is madhyama, and he has a siksa guru who is uttama…
Srila Gurudeva: Madhyama Vaisnavas are of so many varieties– basically there is madhyama-kanistha (a beginner madhyama), madhyama-madyama (an intermediate madhyama), and madhyama-uttama (an advanced madhyama). Madyama-uttama is about to become uttama; this will do. He will be a rasika Vaisnava – very interested in Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis.
Without lobha, genuine spiritual greed, we cannot go forward an inch. There should be real greed, and we should judge whether or not our greed is real. If a person has greed for anything, he will not consider whether the process to achieve that thing is right or wrong. He will only think, “I must have it.”
He is not discouraged if all common persons are telling him not to strive for that objective. Rather, upon the appearance of true spiritual greed he will see how the gopis attained that raga, or spontaneous attachment, for Krsna – how Rupa Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura were situated in raganuga-bhakti and reached the level of svarupa-siddhi and vastu-siddhi. [they are Krsna’s eternal associates, but as an example for us they played the role of conditioned souls advancing. –ed] He will see how the Srutis achieved gopi-bhava, and determine, “I will also have to do this. Beg, borrow or steal, I will have to adopt their methods.” Spiritual greed will not come just by reading books.
If we have some greed to enter this type of bhakti, we will have to adopt the method of Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, and Srila Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura, and especially Srila Rupa Gosvami.
(This paragraph is taken from later in the darsana):
When a person has greed, he will not question about other things. He will only question how he can attain his desired goal. Suppose I see a very beautiful picture that is with you. There is no concern for me regarding how it came to you, how you collected it, or what is its price value. My question, or concern, is how to collect it from you – by theft or by giving anything, by hook or by crook, I will have to take it. If I have so much greed for that picture, my question or concern will be only on this point.
The ruci, or taste, of a person with such greed will not go to anything which is not helpful.
Syamarani dasi: Their taste will not go where?
Srila Gurudeva: It will not go that thing which is not helpful in the development of raganuga-bhakti. Do you understand?
Syamarani dasi: Right now I no longer have a taste for painting, because I don’t see how it is helpful.
Srila Gurudeva: A natural taste will come for anything which is helpful for raganuga-bhakti. Such devotees will not need to ask anyone, “Should I do this, or not?” The presence or absence of taste will determine what to do and what not to do.
If anyone tells something which is not helpful for raganuga-bhakti, they will think this to be very painful for them. For example, if you are extremely thirsty and a man gives you very warm salty water, as is found in Mathura and Vrndavana, will you drink it?
Syamarani dasi: No.
Srila Gurudeva: Similarly, a raganuga-bhakta will only adopt those things that are helpful for development in raganuga-bhakti. If someone forcefully says to you, “You should do this,” you will think that a harassment; you will feel difficulty.
Syamarani dasi: You were speaking to our god-brothers about how the spiritual master comes and eats what his disciples offer to him. You were also speaking about the occasion when the guru is not uttama. I forgot what you said at that time. Can you please explain this again? Can the disciple offer prasadam to a madhyama diksa-guru, and will that madhyama guru be able to take it and pass it up the disciplic succession? Or…?
Srila Gurdueva: Initiated disciples should always believe, “My Gurudeva is uttama, and very near and dear to Krsna. Krsna will like whatever he will do. He is most dear to Krsna.”
Syamarani dasi: But some persons thought that Bhavananda and Ramasvara and other ISKCON gurus were uttama. Later those persons found out they weren’t, and felt cheated.
Srila Gurudeva: They should consider what kind of guru someone is before taking initiation from him.
Syamarani dasi: Even if the gurus are not actually uttama, it is okay for the disciple to think that they are?
Srila Gurudeva: If we are giving everything of ourselves unto the lotus feet of Krsna, He will surely give us connection with a good guru. If we are not so qualified and we have so many material desires, then Krsna will make different arrangements. After that, the disciple will gradually develop, and later on he will be able to think who is a proper guru or not. He will then take initiation again.
Jagatarini dasi: We saw so many unqualified people who took diksa from Prabhupada.
Srila Gurudeva: But they had no doubt in Prabhupada. Those who are performing activities of bhakti will gradually develop, and those who were not qualified and left Prabhupada will go to hell. At the same time, there are persons who left Prabhupada but still have the faith that he is bona fide. For example, Bhavananda left hari-bhajana, but if anyone asks him whether his guru is pure or not, he will say, “My guru is pure.” I think that whoever has not committed offenses at the feet of guru will again return to the path of bhakti.
Jagatarini dasi: It is a weakness of heart that they could not complete the process? I’m asking this because you just said that if one is sincere he will get a good guru, and if he is insincere, he will not. But sometimes it seems that one who appeared to be more sincere had some difficulty, and one who seemed insincere got Prabhupada. It seems that it is difficult to criticize and say that those who got Bhavananda were all insincere.
Srila Gurudeva: When the disciples of Prabhupada were initiated and joined the movement, at that time their faith was good. If they would have had regular, qualified Vaisnava sanga, this mishap could not have come about. For example, after Prabhupada’s departure Bhavananda and Ramesvara and others became free in their preaching – their mixing with ladies and gentlemen and materialists. There was no control, so they began to do what they liked. There was no one to regulate them, so they had no fear.
Syamarani dasi: Nowadays, many of the devotees coming into ISKCON and taking diksa from our god-brothers are understanding that their gurus are not on Srila Prahbupada’s level of uttama, but that they are on some level of madhyama. Is it okay for them to think that their guru is on some level of madhyama?
Srila Gurudeva: They should think, “My Gurudeva is really a Vaisnava, and by surrendering to him, we can attain the service of Radha and Krsna.” If they do not regard their guru in this way, they will not be able to obey their holy master, and gradually they will go down. If they think, “My guru is really a Vaisnava, bhagavat-svarupa (a manifestation of the Supreme Lord), they will gradually go up. Then, when their heart becomes so sincere, Krsna will arrange the right person as guru.
Jagatarini dasi: Perhaps the disciples’ madhyama guru is ahead of them, and if he is advancing and advancing, then he will be able to guide them to some proper course?
Srila Gurudeva: Guru is akandha-tattva. If a guru says, “Chant harinama,” this idea is not of that gurudeva. It is of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Svami. And actually, this idea came from his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and actually this idea came from his guru. At last, the origin is Krsna, and from Krsna comes Baladeva Prabhu.
Krsna is akandha-guru; Baladeva Prabhu is akandha-guru. We should obey our spiritual master and think that he is obeying Krsna and Baladeva, the root gurus. We should think that, “In this way, I am obeying Baladeva Prabhu.” Guru is a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu.
If we see that our guru is different from Baladeva Prabhu, Rupa Gosvami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja, then we should do namaskara (offer respects) to him, and have no further relation with him – if there is a difference. And if there is no difference, we should treat him as a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu.
Syamarani dasi: But hundreds or thousands of ISKCON devotees now think, “My Gurudeva is madhyama”. This is because of all that happened in ISKCON.
Srila Gurudeva: Do you think your Gurudeva is madhyama?
Syamarani dasi: No.
Srila Gurudeva: Why?
Syamarani dasi: Because he has the words and characteristics and symptoms of an uttama-adhikari.
Srila Gurudeva: You are coming to me. What do you think about me? Do you think I am uttama or kanistha?
Syamarani dasi: I think you are uttama.
Srila Gurudeva: I’m telling you that I am kanistha-adhikari.
Syamarani dasi: I don’t believe it. None of us here believe it.
Srila Gurudeva: You are not believing?
Syamarani dasi: No. Because you have the laksana (symptoms) of an uttama.
Srila Gurudeva: Oh, you know the laksana of an uttama?
Syamarani dasi: Well, you seem to.
Srila Gurudeva: [laughing with some sarcasm, as only an uttama-bhakta, or madhyama-uttama, can actually recognize such symptoms with realization] You are so qualified.
Jagatarini dasi: A disciple cannot really see on what level his guru is situated. You have said on other occasions that he has not got the qualification to judge.
Srila Gurudeva: Why are you bothering about these things? You have connection with a real guru, so what problems are with you?
Syamarani dasi: None. But we are surrounded by people in ISKCON who have these problems and are asking these questions.
Srila Gurudeva: They should work out their problems. Why are you wasting your time with this? I am also travelling in so many places, and I am not bothered. I believe in akandha-guru tattva – purna-guru-tattva (the full, complete, undivided principle of guru).
Syamarani dasi: How do we avoid purusa-bhava (the false ego of thinking “I am the doer”) when we are preaching and lecturing to audiences?
Srila Gurudeva: By thinking, “I am a servant, or maidservant, of Krsna. I am preaching to give pleasure to Krsna. I am preaching so that Krsna may be pleased and our gurudeva may be pleased.” With this conviction, purusa-bhava will not come. Being very simple, with prema, love and affection, we should preach and serve; as Lalita does, as Rupa Manjari does, as Rupa Gosvami does.
How many disciples did Rupa Gosvami have? How many sisyas (initiated disciples) did Srila Sanatana Gosvami have?
Syamarani dasi: Unlimited. Millions.
Srila Gurudeva: Millions?
Syamarani dasi: I mean, in the spiritual world.
Srila Gurudeva: Srila Rupa Gosvami did not accept any sisyas. He only had one [initiated disciple], namely Srila Jiva Gosvami; no other. But he preached and wrote so many books, and anyone who was actually connected with him became like him – with no purusa-bhava.
November 29, 1992
Syamarani dasi: We sing nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai to the spiritual master. ["Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis, planning the arrangements for the perfection of yugala-kisora's amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vrndavana. Because he is so expert in making these tasteful arrangements for Their pleasure, he is very dear to Sri Radha and Krsna. I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva.” (Sri Gurvastakam, Verse 6)]
If the spiritual master is not siddha (perfect in self-realization), but he is sadhaka (a devotional practitioner aspiring for pure devotion), is there any benefit in singing that song?
Srila Gurudeva: So much benefit. Baladeva will take all these things.
Syamarani dasi: Even if the disciple thinks that the words of the song are going directly to his sadhaka guru, still, Baladeva is taking it?
Srila Gurudeva: Krsna and Baladeva are the root-guru. As akhanda-guru (complete guru), They will take the worship. So, no harm.
A Few Sastric Considerations on
Uttama, Madhyama, and Kanistha Adhikari Devotees:
Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.45):
sarva-bhutesu yah pasyed
bhagavad-bhavam atmanah
bhutani bhagavaty atmany
esa bhagavatottamah
The most advanced devotee sees within everything the soul of all souls, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sré Krsna. Consequently he sees systematically everything in relation to the Supreme Lord and understands that everything that exists is eternally situated within the Lord.
Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.47):
arcayam eva haraye
pujam yah sraddhayehate
na tad-bhaktesu canyesu
sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah
“A person who is very faithfully engaged in the worship of the Deity in the temple, but who does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general is called a prakrta-bhakta, or kanistha-adhikari.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.46):
isvare tad-adhinesu
balisesu dvisatsu ca
prema-maitri-krpopeksa
yah karoti sa madhyamah
“The madhyama-adhikari is a devotee who worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the highest object of love, makes friends with the Lord’s devotees, is merciful to the ignorant and avoids those who are envious by nature.”
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.64
sraddhavan jana haya bhakti-adhikari
’uttama’, ‘madhyama’, ‘kanistha’—sraddha-anusari
“A faithful devotee is a truly eligible candidate for the loving service of the Lord. According to one’s faith, one is classified as a topmost devotee, an intermediate devotee or an inferior devotee.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.65
sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra
’uttama-adhikari’ sei taraye samsara
“One who is expert in logic, argument and the revealed scriptures and who has firm faith in Krsna is classified as a topmost devotee. He can deliver the whole world.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.66
sastre yuktau ca nipunah
sarvatha drdha-niscayah
praudha-sraddho ‘dhikari yah
sa bhaktav uttamo matah
“One who is expert in logic and in understanding the revealed scriptures, and who always has firm conviction and deep faith that is not blind, is to be considered a topmost devotee in devotional service.”
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.67
sastra-yukti nahi jane droha, sraddhavan
’madhyama-adhikari’ sei maha-bhagyavan
“One who is not very expert in argument and logic based on the revealed scriptures but who has firm faith is considered a second-class devotee. He also must be considered most fortunate.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.69
yahara komala sraddha, se ‘kanistha’ jana
krame krame tenho bhakta ha-ibe ‘uttama’
“One whose faith is soft and pliable is called a neophyte, but by gradually following the process he will rise to the platform of a first-class devotee.
Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.70
yo bhavet komala-sraddhah
sa kanistho nigadyate
“One whose faith is not very strong, who is just beginning, should be considered a neophyte devotee.”
Click here to read the official
IPBYS Guru Position Paper
and discussion.
Acharya is self effulgent in the proper time it may manifest.
I understand Maharaj that what you say is to advogate in favor of the godbrothers of the guru and for the etiquete of not interfere in other zone, always respectful.
but if you say such things like zone, next generation and so one, you already loose the case.
We will do the same mistake iskcon did, to kidnaped the Acharya´s mission and divided in zones of mini acharyas?
This is not proper and proof already in iskcon to be a big ofense against the acharya.
give initiation is one thing divide the guru mission in mini missions is another thing. if some one think he is the acharya he can go and open his own mission. Srila Gurudeva did not left any acharya, as did not Srila Prabhupada as did not Srila Bhaktisidantha.
I already read , zone, next generation, and so others things that we strong opose in iskcon.
What zone? What next generation, we are in Srila Gurudeva’s mission. we are spreading his teachings ,
we are Srila Bhaktisidantha Prabhupada, followers, we came mostly in contact with Krishna trough Iskcon. And Srila Gurudeva has gave more clear teachings for us to understant fully what is in Srila Prabhupada books.
Now, what will be the zone guru´s colaboration in the matter of understanding Krishna..
If there is no new uplift of sidhanta all have to bow down to Srila Gurudeva and going on with his mission.
Is not that now new gurus are coming to replace srila gurudeva, Are they?
There will be my zone, your zone? next generation.?right now. Without any demonstration of new big contribution in understanding the sidantha.?
Just like that, please Sripad BV Vaikanthnas Maharaj explain this better, Sorry if I m wrong but I m smelling Iskconism somewhere in your statement. . I want to know better..
How we can preach you sing guruastakan thinking in your gurudeva, but by instance he proof in the course of time that he is not in the kunja, dont feel bad.
We can do that?
We have to reconcile those statements and in this work very careful all the brilliants minds of the seniors devotee how we will spread Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu movement that I think should be our second concern after the first that is our own spiritual life.
Let us not spoil everthing with rush to the next step of gutus without strongly reconcile this.
rSila Gurudeva staid that the Guru shold be in madhym /uthama stage at least.
we have such devotees?
Srila Gurudeva say that Kanistha if take the role of guru will fall.
He said, what is the vantage to clain that your guru is perfect and the most proeminent without being, If he never reach this stage.?
We can seat and think very careful before start to give guru certfication.
There is no nead for rush, Srila Prabhupda took many, many years after seeing his guru first time till he finally was initated.
Since we have no capacity to judge who is or who who is not qualified; the candidate can state in front of the deity and sign a dociment that he is in the madhyam utham stage and the disciple can sing to him nikunja…guruastakam.
Sorry but I want to know if I m inside or outside this preaaching camp.
I did not came to Srila Gurudeva, after the frustration of being cheated in Iskcon to participate in another theatre.
Dandavats,
yours insignificant,
Makundananda dasa
We have a beautiful society, beautiful teachings, beautiful devotees, we have everything to spread Hare Krishna Movement in full swing as Prabhupada use to say.
But I dont need to be a forecaster to see the result of our preaching if we will not fully reconcile this matter.
Seating here in this lonly country Brasil, that was blessed By Srila Gurudevaq Lotus feet, in a matter of fact I now in front of the bed he has slept and I can remember his sweet smile.
From here I already have a very good sample that what will be if we not adopt very good rules about initiation and reconcile all those statements of Srila Gurudeva and the scriptures for Guru Tatwa.
I m none, but here is a very good lab that test this future.
yours insignificant,
Mukundananda dasa
See when we have a pure devoteee as Guru is easy to trow mud in Iskcon so called Kangurus, now we are saying that they may be madhyam.
I find many ex iskcon devotees that didnt want to come to srila Gurudeva lótus feet because they calim that Srila Gurudeva gave instruction and support to those eleven Gurus be treat as god.
We have really to seat in this matter and be very careful . How we will follow Srila Gurudeva´s instruction and how we will externally teach and pratice this.
How we will reconcile this, has to be a way.
Srila Gurudeva said this to Syamarani, but I heard from him also many things that are diferent in some sense. He said once,” what is the benefit if the disciple call his Guru as pure and in reality this guru never touch the trancendental above? It is useless for the disciple to claim his Guru is perfect.” Look and find when Srila Gurudeva has said that.
Yours most insignificant,
Mukundananda dasa.
was reading my post and because english is not my language it is quite confuse.
My points are:
Srila Gurudeva has left, we cant go everywhere now preaching Guru Tatwa as our main point as we did before trying to bring innocent devotees to his lotus feet, this is clear.
Now by our tradition some devotees will take the role of spiritual masters, hope all we be in the level of madhym/madhyam, but in any case this point of worship him like God, I think we have to seat and think more deep in this matter. How this will be show outside or how it will be done pratically.
I dont think that external demonstration of such worship should be made, even internaly I think better to reinforce the power of the parampara sitem in save all of us.
If the Guru is not qualified and the disciple will worship him as god later one the disciple will feel cheated. and this is the main cause of loosing devotees to Maya.
Instead of this if the disciple believes that his guru is a bonafide devotee in the chain of parampara and he is connected with that paramparas, not like ritwiks, but real guru, but we worship like God Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada, and we honor our spiritual master.
In the reality, we dont find the spiritual master he find us.
When some one has some adhikar the spiritual master manifest in his life. This is daiva netrena, and like a seeed give live to big tree by nature itself, the spiritual master also comes in the life of disciple.
I read Bhagavatam before met Srila Gurdeva, and I read after , I was not capable to realize what Gurudeva gave to me at that time even if I had met Srila Gurudeva;. at that time I had no adhikar for such understanding ..
We have now the 3th generation of societys left by the spiritual master without any acharya, first Gaudiya math, Iskcon and us.
We can learn so many things for what they did that was succesful and not.
The desire of Srila Bhaktisidantha to spread Krishna consciouness and the Holly Names was so strong that he accept to serve meat if necessary to attract people.
What people in general can digest?
Any devotee in good standart if not become craze by being worship as god like a pure devotee, if he understant that he is just facilating Spreading of Krishna conciousness as his service for the previous acharyas, Any of then can make wonders without become craze.
Sai baba left the planet last year, he left 30 millions of followers in the world with a bogus teaching.
If we can make 1 % of that with pure Krishna counciousness teaching if we can give the oportunity to many become devotees and grow in sukrity and adhikar it will please a lot our Param Para.
If we will pay so much attention to this spiritual master matter, and dont give attention that we have the most merciful parampara from Rupa Goswami, and we have the best teaching for all. we will just spoil everything.
Iskcon has maded ofenses and still is making this is harming their progress, but they also did by Srila Prabhupada order some very good thing, one of those things is keeping working inside the society. Of course this doesnt mean that who went out for better association maded a mistake, but being unite is a great achievement no one can deny..
Let was inspire each other with a pure caracter, let punish who things is above of others, because a madhyam/madhyam is vey humble, if the so called Guru is not so humble this will be a clear proof that his bellow this level, and should be call in the corner for a little talk.
But if even inside our seniors devotees will be devotees that thing that such and such devotee is very advance and cant be correct. If we keep this bogus mentality, that pure devotees like Srila Gurudeva is easy to be found , that just being born in the dham and be saniaasy he has to be treat above everyone else, than forget it.
I m not saying to not respect, but by the time being let us not create another set of 11 pure devotees or another ananta vasudeva.
I was reading my post and because english is not my language it is quite confuse.
My points are:
Srila Gurudeva has left, we cant go everywhere now preaching Guru Tatwa as our main point as we did before trying to bring innocent devotees to his lotus feet, this is clear.
Now by our tradition some devotees will take the role of spiritual masters, hope all we be in the level of madhym/madhyam, but in any case this point of worship him like God, I think we have to seat and think more deep in this matter. How this will be show outside or how it will be done pratically.
I dont think that external demonstration of such worship should be made, even internaly I think better to reinforce the power of the parampara sitem in save all of us.
If the Guru is not qualified and the disciple will worship him as god later one the disciple will feel cheated. and this is the main cause of loosing devotees to Maya.
Instead of this if the disciple believes that his guru is a bonafide devotee in the chain of parampara and he is connected with that paramparas, not like ritwiks, but real guru, but we worship like God Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada, and we honor our spiritual master.
In the reality, we dont find the spiritual master he find us.
When some one has some adhikar the spiritual master manifest in his life. This is daiva netrena, and like a seeed give live to big tree by nature itself, the spiritual master also comes in the life of disciple.
I read Bhagavatam before met Srila Gurdeva, and I read after , I was not capable to realize what Gurudeva gave to me at that time even if I had met Srila Gurudeva;. at that time I had no adhikar for such understanding ..
We have now the 3th generation of societys left by the spiritual master without any acharya, first Gaudiya math, Iskcon and us.
We can learn so many things for what they did that was succesful and not.
The desire of Srila Bhaktisidantha to spread Krishna consciouness and the Holly Names was so strong that he accept to serve meat if necessary to attract people.
What people in general can digest?
Any devotee in good standart if not become craze by being worship as god like a pure devotee, if he understant that he is just facilating Spreading of Krishna conciousness as his service for the previous acharyas, Any of then can make wonders without become craze.
Sai baba left the planet last year, he left 30 millions of followers in the world with a bogus teaching.
If we can make 1 % of that with pure Krishna counciousness teaching if we can give the oportunity to many become devotees and grow in sukrity and adhikar it will please a lot our Param Para.
If we will pay so much attention to this spiritual master matter, and dont give attention that we have the most merciful parampara from Rupa Goswami, and we have the best teaching for all. we will just spoil everything.
Iskcon has maded ofenses and still is making this is harming their progress, but they also did by Srila Prabhupada order some very good thing, one of those things is keeping working inside the society. Of course this doesnt mean that who went out for better association maded a mistake, but being unite is a great achievement no one can deny..
Let was inspire each other with a pure caracter, let punish who things is above of others, because a madhyam/madhyam is vey humble, if the so called Guru is not so humble this will be a clear proof that his bellow this level, and should be call in the corner for a little talk.
But if even inside our seniors devotees will be devotees that thing that such and such devotee is very advance and cant be correct. If we keep this bogus mentality, that pure devotees like Srila Gurudeva is easy to be found , that just being born in the dham and be saniaasy he has to be treat above everyone else, than forget it.
I m not saying to not respect, but by the time being let us not create another set of 11 pure devotees or another ananta vasudeva.
Daer Maharajs, Prabhus and Didis,
Please accept my humble dadavats pranams.
All Glories to Srila Gurudeva!
I read all coments they are all very nice.
About Guru and kangurus, what we can say.
Srila Gurudeva could call Kangurus as Srila Prabhupada could call rascals.
But we can?
We can go everywhere and tell people about “guru Tatwa”. A matter that speacking frankly how many of us really realize all the true concepts of Guru tatwa? We can do like parrots but realizaqtion of Guru Tatwa is by hinself the level of very advance Madhyam Bhaktas who really understand and serve his Gurudeva.
About Iskcon leaders they make a big mistake, Their mistake was not to accept disciples but to ignore and making ofenses against pure devotees . at that time many of Srila Bhaktisidantha .disciples was alive.
The ofense they maded at the Lotus Feet of Pure Devotees and they are still doing so, was the problem.
For te sake of spread the mission of the Acharya, they could accept the risk to become guru´s, But how many did that only for the sake of serving their Guru’s mission?
If their effort was pure even if they were neophite not qualified they could take advantage of so much pure siksa availabe in the planet. But they prefer to dishonor who has to be very much Honor, the Pure Devotee.
This was their mistake, not taking the role of spiritual masters giving diksa to spread the Guru’s mission.
I was a disciple of such a “guru”, I cant deny that he help me. But he could help much more if he was humble and never disrespect elders Vaishnavas.
But this is a particular problem of Iskcon..
We by our understanding of tSrila Gurudeva’s teachings cant do the same mistakes.
We will be more punish if we do that , because we know the truth, Iskcon leaders was and are ignorants of all complexity of Guru Tatwa, and they was push by Srila Prabhupada to accept this hole, well I hope there is no ritwiks in our sanga.
Also Srila Prabhupada was very careful to mix his disciples with Gaudiya Math, this of course was not very much Srila Prabhuipada position in the last 3 to 4 years before he left.
But who knew actually that Srila Prabhupada change his moods after his society was full estabilished?
Many devotees still read in his letters and books to be careful in dealing with Gaudiya,
Be careful doesnt mean not to have relation, not to deal. But any way is there.
My point here is to make a paralell with Srila Prabhupda in build his society when he was here and Srila Gurudeva at the same effort when he was here.
The prasad we took from Srila Gurudeva and our preaching in pushing devotees to take his
shelter now is not to be the same, because he is not manifest lila any more.
Now Srila Gurudeva left and we have so much teaching and blessing from him.
We cant make mistakes in this field.
Spreading the holly name dont implicate in making disciples, but if some take this role, he has to be always very meek an humble and be very much guard and protect by the god brothers to not come in the ilusion of their fans clubs and that they are the new Acharya.
If some pure devotees sprout in this sanga will be not a surprise .
Now Gurudeva is not any more with us in prakrita but he is always with us and if we sincerely come down to his lotus feet he will properly guide everyone of us and his society.
We have to be alert that no contamination in this regard will come to our sanga.
This is our duty.
But as Srila Gurudeva said you will try but Kali Maharaj will not allow, but you trying you are praticing Bhakti. The fate of unperfect souls is to make mistakes.
I hope I did said some useful thing of my very much nonsense insights and praying for the mercy of Srila Gurudeva to be always with us,
Your insignificant,
Mukundananda das
Srimati Syamarani didi Ki Jay!!!!Jaya Srila Prtabhupada Jaya Srila Gurudeva !!!!
In the 1 is stated:
“He is allowing all sannyasis (and senior devotees) who think themselves qualified.”
Can someone point to me where Srila Gurudeva state that senior devotees can give initiation? I was thinking that was stated previously that only sannyasis could give initiation. This is not clealy for me yet.
Jaya Srila Gurudeva!
Hare Krsna, thank you so much for publishing these darshans. it put everything into prospective. What ever Gurudeva desires then everything will work well. This has ben so helpful. Thank you. Jaya Sril Gurudeva
My spelling mistake Sorry. Jaya Srila Gurudeva!!!!!!
Sundar vicar
बहुत सुन्दर (bahut sundar)
Gurudev by these words have show the ideal character of a real Sad-Guru. So detached, no harm if others want to be Guru … even at his presence …. i have seen that it happen but still Gurudev always gave love to all . Who will understand how much love Gurudev have even to the enemies of the truth? All Glories to Gurudev!!! The most Glorious Acharya!!!
Good one, Syamarani didi & Harikatha team.
Jay Srila Gurudeva!
This has certainly opened my eyes and mind, and sheds a whole “new” light on the subject. Thank you so much Syamarani didi and Harikatha team for compiling it and making it available for our upliftment.
ys Raghava