Dear devotees,
Please accept our dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.
Since the departure of our beloved Gurudeva, Nitya-lila pravista Om Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, the Sannyasa Council in consultation with the members of the Bhakti Trust International, senior math commanders and eminent preachers, has begun the process of developing and codifying the principles and aims of our sanga, known as the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society. Sri Guru is always present in his instructions and within the hearts of sincere disciples. We pray fervently that Srila Gurudeva guide us in our humble attempts to fulfill his mano bhista. Our discussions thus far have resulted in two papers that are being presented for your consideration.
Our Society, as envisioned by Srila Gurudeva, has many responsibilities and yet has a distinctive inclination towards encouraging individual initiative and decision making on the local level. The institution or society has as its primary responsibility, the preservation and teaching of the eternal spiritual principles conveyed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu through our guru-parampara . The form that our society takes and any guidelines and bylaws that we may adopt, are meant to follow and uphold those principles.
Thus you will see in the two papers that are presented, that there is little in the way of rules and regulations. The topic is mostly guru-tattva and how we are responding to the complexities of that issue now that there are multiple devotees taking on that role within the same society. The emphasis is to clarify our spiritual relationships and our mutual goals. The processes by which we achieve these may be adjusted according to time, place and circumstance, as long as the original principles remain fixed as our guiding beacon.
The first paper on guru-tattva was written to be presented at the Vraja-mandala Parikrama of 2011. There were some issues that had not yet been discussed by the international body of sannyasis and senior devotees. We waited for those meetings to be concluded so that a summary of those discussions could be given at the same time. These meetings addressed the practical application of the guru-tattva paper based on the experiences gained and input received from members of the world-wide sanga over the last 9 months. The second paper is a summary of the meetings held in Govardhana during the parikrama in November, 2011.
These papers will certainly stimulate discussion and responses from devotees around the world. That is a good thing. Please keep the discussions philosophical and respectful. The discussions may center around guru-tattva or they may explore other areas of personal and sanga development. This is a challenging and exciting time. Let your voices be heard.
Aspiring for the service of Hari, Guru and Vaisnavas,
Swami BV Vaikhanas
I dont think that if a preacher was going on giving initiation even with Srila Gurudeva here was a problem, get disciples and giving diksa mantra if some devotee feel that he can do , is his choice.
But there is a big gap in doing that and try to minimize Srila Gurudeva´s Glories,.
Making all effort to spread everywhere the glories of this Mahanta Achraya.
Also critisize him in subtle ways, is like Sankara say Vyas was not 100% right.
This a big mistake, and speacking Sri Guru Tatwa, was not expose this big mistake, was only giving guidance to devotees be very much alert to recognize the symptoms of a bonafide spiritual master and dont take things basis in sentimental mentality.
If the Vasihnava is glorious who can damage the faith of his followers?
Srila Gurudeva was blasphemed , insulted , betray and everywhere they try to stop him.
Anyone think that Gurudeva´s had any lost in this?
They make a favor for Srila Gurudeva., they spread more and more his fame.
Why now we will dont regonize his glories in his disciples , if we do that we will do the same minimize his Glories. We cant start to criticise each other, the only critic we can do in the our sanga, is that, dont blasphem or the good reputation of our Srila Gurudeva.
If someone will say Gurudeva is an SaktiAvesha Avatar, and someone come and say he is not, this is a blaphem.
If Someone say all his disciples that are taking the role of Guru as Srila Gurudeva´s world are in the madhyam level, this is not a blaphem this is the truth.
And the disciple of a MAdhym cant accept his Guru as a bonafide representant of the Lord?
He cant treat his madhyam Guru as God hinself?
If the time will show some high class Vaishnava, like Srila Gurudeva , this will be great. In the mantime, we accept that everyone is the madhyam level, is a free choice to anyone try to get higher association outside this sanga or stay here, and see all his devotees together with all their shortcomings as part and parcel o f Srila Gurudeva..
The only thing we cant tolerate I repeat is stoping anyone to preach the correct sidhanta with fear that his reputation will be harm , this is unceaptable, and a ofense agaisnt Srila Gurudeva glorie.
Dandavats Pranams, All Sanniassy, prabhus adn didi.
All glóries to Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta NArayan Goswami Mahraj.
The root cuase io our Srila Prabhupada got the credentials to preach in the west
And who has come later oon to the world as a humble servat of Bhaktivedanta Swami, to bring Krishna’s Movement back to the tracks.
Now the world have eyes and light who will be cheated is because dont care abouit that, They want that.
The amount of light Srila Gurudeva left in this world is like millions of suns.
Waht to speack of the teaching of Srila Gurudeva give in this class, that the meaning of the verse has being distorce. And who are forbiing anyone to go and seek for higher association is not a Vaishnava. If they said dont go outside our group.
But I can see that only 2 years that Srila Gurudeva left and that are devotees that tell dont go for this preacher in our group , he is unqualified he is criticising. He is a aparadhi, dont even dont look in his face.
The other group did that for not going outside their group . Here we already start to do this in our own sanga.
So high level MAhabagavata, he saw everything much before. He left clear instructions to regonize a VAsihnava but we are starting doing worst then Isk……..
What can be done? Who will stop this, I have to show out my face to stop this nonsense here in Brasil, and who am I?
THis has to come from You . Why this is being going on with full approval of the sanniassys council.
And dont telll that is not with the approoval becasue since 2 years this is going on and not even a single word for the sanga was told..
And I know that the real offended party in this was called attention to not preach so much deep “Guru Tatwa”
And oof course all this politicts has took effect in the faith of many devotees, instead protecting the devotees saying to the saniassy to not preach so much Guru Tatwa, This action of stop the flowing of correct sidantha did ruin already many lives here.
And this council think they are protecting the faith of the next generation, what a bluff!
What we be this? A place for spiritual criminals to flourish and lies and politics will be our sidhnata.
agree 100% .. whats is happening in brasil is a desaster and guru aparadha …. many iniciations took place while Gurudev was still present here (i have a original letter that prove this) .. everybody knows, no one take any atitude …. now new people are frustated by cheap iniciations, we will be blamed in all country to be the second iskcon … and the worst thing, we have to agree ….
please, this case should be looked well, other wise many jivas will be frustated or will be cheated or will do aparadha against the founder Acharya Sri Srila Narayan Goswami Maharaj.
“Sri Narottama Thakura also studied in the school of Sri Jiva Gosvami. Jiva Gosvami personally told him to take initiation from Lokanatha dasa Gosvami, and he told Srinivasa Acarya to take initiation from Gopala Bhatta Gosvami. In those days there were no restrictions as there are today. Everyone was free to associate with topmost Vaisnavas.
In fact, gurus would advise their disciples: “Take the association of these most exalted Vaisnavas, and in this way you will develop your Krsna consciousness.” There was no caste consciousness as there is today: “Don’t go to other Vaisnavas, even though they may be very high-class. This is our party, and that is their party, and that is the other group’s party.” At that time there was no party spirit at all; everyone belonged to the family of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All used to hear from all.
Jiva Gosvami had such a pure heart, free from any envy, that he told Narottama Thakura and Srinivasa Acarya to take initiation from these two high-class Vaisnavas. They had made up their minds to take initiation from Jiva Gosvami, but he told them: “Oh, they are my seniors. You will be more benefited by taking their shelter.” We are not pure enough to speak in this way to our subordinates. Our hearts are not so improved.”
(Srila Gurudev)
“I think what we are seeing right now is that many senior devotees are concerned that devotees are rushing off to find a maha-bhagavat siksa guru, and that many are neglecting their relationship with Srila Gurudeva and his mission.”
Dandavat Pranam
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Hare Krsna
Dear All,
Raghunath batta prabhu a disciple of Srila Gour Govinda Swami provides a lesson on this subject.
He relates this story. When Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja entered Nitya Lila Raghunath batta prabhu having understood Maharaja’s instructions about always being under the guidance of a pure devotee came directly to Srila BV Narayan Maharaja. Prabhu explains that his God brothers were finding fault with him for coming to Srila Gurudeva so soon after the departure of his Guru.
Srila Gurudeva reassured him (many times) what he was doing was correct and welcomed him as a siksa disciple.
Any intelligent disciple will seek pure sadhu sanga (inside and outside the institution) while pushing on the mission and mood of his Gurudeva.
Your worthless servant
Isa das
same history ….
i think the problem is that now many are gurus, before they were disciples searcing for guidance ……
intersting is that some same who went Gurudev after Gour Govinda M. departure, now criticize others of doing the same thing they did ….
Siksha Guru of the same level of Diksha will always encreasy the relation of disciple with his Diksha Guru. The association with another Siksha Maha Bhagavata Guru will always be good for the disciple, for the institution, and for the seva … who will neglect the seva of the Diksha? only foolish persons …..
Gurudev always told the best seva is to be a good devotee …. and what is most important? Sadhu sanga .. sadhu sanga .. in the beggining and in the end. Sadhu Sanga!
Gurudev have stated in his book “The true conception of sri-guru-tattva’ yo can see at purebhakti.com that:
“The Guru should be at least a Madhyama-uttama.- asakti stage.”
“What the sintoms? He will never be envious if the disciple want to see one more eelevated guru, a Uttama adhikari Guru, and he also will go to see that high class Guru. If the madhyama or kanistha Guru dont give permission, then the disciple should undrestand that his guru has false ego, Then he should reject him.”
It was stated by Gurudev himself. You can read at purebhakti.com ‘english books’ ” The true conception of sri-guru-tattva”
i became very sad when i told that iam taking siksha from a Uttama Guru (recognized by many Prabhupad´s disciples as B.Promode Puri, Bhakti Dayita Madhav, Bhakti Kumud Santa.), many ‘gurus’ have discouraged me saying “he have another mood.” or “he speak only about Drhuva and Prahlad” or “If you hava faith you go.”. May be they are only qualified for rasa-lila and nothing more. . My self iam very fallen.
No one became very happy and desire to go with me to see that Uttama Guru. Only Brajanath Prabhu encouraged me and by this atitude we can see that he is following Gurudev instruction on this book. Gurudev told that if a devotee dont become happy to see another going to uttama Guru , then we can understand that he have false ego and have desire for many disciples., and then we should reject him. Its all stated on this book, You can see yourself since my time is short.
Here in the Gurudev´s book “The true conception of guru tattva” Gurudev clearly explain that the guru should be at least a Madhyama-uttama.
Page 63. interview.
Gurudev – “The bona fide guru is qualified. He is like fire. He will burn everything away. He will not take the fruits of disciple karma. He will burn everything.But if the Guru is not qualified, he have to take all sins. A madhyama adhikari who is at level of Madhyama Uttama, oh, he will burn everything.”
Question- “If some one has a guru who can not give the bhakti lata bija, then is that to be acept as real initiation?”
Gurudev – “No , he should be changed. He should acept at leats a Madhyama-uttama vaishnava as his Guru.
If his Guru is chanting harinama and he has sraddha, and he also knows some siddhanta, but he is not fallen, then a devotee may aproach his Gurudev and request him: “Can you please be mercifull? Can i take siksha from the other Guru?” Then, his guru will be very happy, and the Guru himself will also go with him. But if he does not agree, then the disciple should undrstand that he does not have a qualified guru.”
Gurudev have stated in his book “The true conception of sri-guru-tattva’ yo can see at http://www.purebhakti.com that:
“The Guru should be at least a Madhyama-uttama.- asakti stage.”
“What the sintoms? He will never be envious if the disciple want to see one more eelevated guru, a Uttama adhikari Guru, and he also will go to see that high class Guru. If the madhyama or kanistha Guru dont give permission, then the disciple should undrestand that his guru has false ego, Then he should reject him.”
It was stated by Gurudev himself. You can read at http://www.purebhakti.com ‘english books’ ” The true conception of sri-guru-tattva”
i became very sad when i told that iam taking siksha from a Uttama Guru (recognized by many Prabhupad´s disciples as B.Promode Puri, Bhakti Dayita Madhav, Bhakti Kumud Santa.), many ‘gurus’ have discouraged me saying “he have another mood.” or “he speak only about Drhuva and Prahlad” or “If you hava faith you go.”. May be they are only qualified for rasa-lila and nothing more. . My self iam very fallen.
No one became very happy and desire to go with me to see that Uttama Guru. Only Brajanath Prabhu encouraged me and by this atitude we can see that he is following Gurudev instruction on this book. Gurudev told that if a devotee dont become happy to see another going to uttama Guru , then we can understand that he have false ego and have desire for many disciples., and then we should reject him. Its all stated on this book, You can see yourself since my time is short.
recently i was invited by a disciple of Bhakti Promode Puri Goswami Maharaj, who took sanyassa from paramadvaiti Maharaj, to visit his farm here in brazil, some events took places and its also have some conection with what happen in our sanga.
The main thing happened there because this sanyassi know some thing about guru-tattva and diferent levels of Guru. When i spoke guru-tattva there some paramadvaiti m. disciples became confused, even i did not mentioned any name. Thats another dificult thing. If we speak guru-tattva to any disciple of a kanistha or madhyama adhikaris, automatically they will feel inferiorized and some deception will enter in their hearts, its natural. So that sanyassi told me he also had this problem with them and asked me to dont say many things to them. In fact, it happen in the same way in our sanga. So what to do? I always heard that truth should be spoken, and that who objects the truth can not be called Guru.
Another important thing i saw is that if all the honor, prestige and indication is given only to Maha Bhagavatas, this problem would finished at a moment. We would not have any desire of pratistha for ourselfs, no deceptioned jivas, not envious mind, the Acharya would became very happy to save many souls, all jivas would be happy and would never be disapointed and no ofense would be made to any pure devotee.
for gaurasundara prabhu who told “Sad guru also never think he is a guru but just a instrument’ its true but in this case he is a uttama who down to the madhyama level to give mercy, usually he even dont think he is a madhyama, he feel He is most fallen soul and that all others are Maha Bhagavata, we see this fact very easy in Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj, today in hari-katha he told: “Iam very old, even my eyes can not see the paper now adays, i can not speak so much, please you all bless me, i will some thing now just to my own benefit.” This is the pure devotee fellings, no one can understand unless have sraddha on their lotus feet.
Goura Hari Bol!!!
Jay Gurudev!!!
“The spiritual master is not a temporary, perishable lump of flesh and blood. Srimad-Bhagavatam states that the spiritual master is the Lord Himself. He is an incarnation of the Lord. Of his own sweet will, the spiritual master mercifully descends from the spiritual world to this world. He is eternally present both in the Lord’s manifest and unmanifest pastimes. He always acts as our guide and gives us proper intelligence.
The spiritual master is an extraordinary personality. He is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. To consider him an ordinary human being is to be possessed of a hellish mentality. To think like this is an offence against the holy name. The spiritual master is self-realized; he knows the science of Krsna. He is dear to Sri Caitanyadeva. He has appeared in this world to deliver fallen souls like us. He is not a karmi, jnani or yogi. He is an associate of the Lord in His pastimes. He is a topmost devotee. As God is eternal, so is the spiritual master. The transcendental Cupid, Krsna, is God. The spiritual master is non-different from that same Krsna. He is a manifestation of Krsna.
When we consider the spiritual master as non-different from God, we recognize that the spiritual master is worshipable God. Although he is the worshipable Supreme Lord, he is most dear to the Lord. The spiritual master manifests the pastimes of worshipper God. The spiritual master and Krsna are simultaneously one and different. The spiritual master is sheltered, and Lord Krsna is the shelter. The spiritual master is servitor God and Sri Krsna is the object of service, the Personality of Godhead. The spiritual master is most dear to Lord Mukunda. In the vision of a self-realized disciple on the raga path, the spiritual master is Krsna’s energy and a manifestation of Vrsabhanu’s daughter. The spiritual master, who is dear to Krsna, is part of Krsna’s internal energy; Lord Krsna is the Supreme Energetic. Krsna is the male or enjoyer, and the spiritual master is the female or beloved of Krsna.”
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.
“we are in a ”unique” position to “get it right”; not just with the benifit of hindsight but with the efforts of many sincere persons in our sanga who are sincerely trying to follow Srila Gurudeva’s instructions.
vaisnava dasanudas
sudarsana”
Well said!
We do not want any false pretenders in numbers, but we want a single sincere soul.
February 2, 1970
Los Angeles
My Dear Lalita Kumar,
My open advice is that if any one can remain a Brahmacari, it is very nice, but there is no need of artificial Brahmacaris. In Bhagavad-gita it is stated that one who exhibits outwardly as self restrained, but inwardly he thinks of sense gratification he is condemned as mithyacara which means false pretender.
We do not want any false pretenders in numbers, but we want a single sincere soul. There is no harm in accepting a wife and living without any disturbance of the mind and thus sincerely advancing in Krishna Consciousness.
Perfect!
Dear Maharajas and assembled Vaisnavas
dandavat-pranams, and thank you for all your thoughtful and sincere and heart-felt ideas, feelings, insights …
I have read so many of the postings here, and personally I found the most inspiration from BV Vaikhanas Maharaja’s original post and subsequent comments, especially fromDec 22 or 23. I also greatly appreciated Brajanath prabhu’s powerful appeal on behalf of so many of us who were encouraged to take shelter of bogus gurus for so many years …
Here’s what I am thinking: we are all fans of Srila Gurudev – but his purpose in coming was not to create a fan-club. He gave so many teachings that he wants us to actually assimilate and apply in our own lives. Two things he said that I find of extreme relevance and potency in regards to the issues being discussed are:
1) Who should you blame (for any distresses or difficulties that befall you)? Who else is responsible other than you yourself?
2) Don’t worry (in regards to this very issue around madhyama-level devotees taking on the role and responsibilities of Guru)
So should we not determine to align ourselves with these directives? What is the use of glorifying Srila Gurudev’s most elevated status, and lamenting that he is no longer present to give initiation and direct things personally … but failing to do our utmost to apply his directives? In so many of the posts here both things are very present: blame for others victimising us, and so much worry about what could happen, worry that actually obscures the answers Srila Gurudev gave to the same questions asked here that were being posed to him personally by
Shyamarani didi and others.
I may mention I had darshan with Srila Prabhupada at the kumbha mela in 1977 – but I was unable to recognize his position or to know that my true welfare lay in simply embracing his lotus feet and instructions. I found myself joining his movement in 1978 in Vrindavan, after his departure. And though I felt very close to him, I found myself bowing to the social pressure within ISKCON and choosing my guru. I chose Kirtanananda Swami, who bade me come to New Vrindavan, and never allowed me to return to India, to Vrindavan (where I had expected and hoped to spend the rest of this life). I vaguely remember Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj coming through to preach there – but I failed to recognize his status, and was certainly not questioning my then-guru’s’ or my own status. So many things happened – I eventually rejected my relationship with him back in the mid-90′s, and wandered as an ‘independent’ with some unclear sense of relationship with Srila Prabhupada. But it wasn’t until 2009 that I actually came to see Srila Gurudev, who very very kindly gave me mantras and assurances that he would help me.
Sometimes I wondered how my life would have been if, when I was staying in Vrindavan in 1978, I might have met Srila Narayan Maharaj – but I had not heard of him then. So … how should I look at all this? Who do I blame for my misfortunes, for my inability to recognize either the neophyte status of the one I took shelter of, or the advanced status of those mahabhagavatas I did pass by? Although I deeply appreciate the sentiments Sriman Brajanath prabhu presents in regards to those devotees who were cheated, do I believe that I was a somehow innocent victim? I cannot do that, because that goes against the teachings I am trying to absorb, as in the tat te ‘nukampam verse, about which Srila Gurudev said that IF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS VERSE YOU WILL NEVER BE ANGRY … and I understand this to refer to anger with anyone or anything else for somehow cheating or victimising me.
Alongside such instructions, I have regularly heard about the actual causative factors such as sukriti and samskaras and aparadhas – this all makes so much sense. And as far as sukriti and samskaras are concerned, we are all on a journey that is neither begun nor ended in this one brief flash. So many lifetimes, and Srila Gurudev many times described that in this life, you may progress so far, developing bhakti, and then in the next, some more advancement, until the point of bhava, and then raga, rupa-anuga … that it is not usually this life, and boom, you’re home free (and no, those last were not his words:) ). This is a provess, so many steps, and we are not situated on the same step, so that the next step is also not the same for us all … accoridng to our sukriti and samskaras.
As far as receiving guidance from madhyama-adhikaris is concerned – what a blessing. If they are truly madhyama, then they are acting under the guidance and direction of the acaryas, and can indeed help so many devotees progress, and attain further sukriti and samskaras that will in turn grant them not only association with mahabhagavatas, either in this life or the next or the one after, but also grant them the benediction of actually recognizing what that means, and that the purpose of such association is to take their instructions to heart and to living accordingly.
Meanwhile, the comparisons with ISKCON are innappropriate – neophytes and kanisthas acting outside the actual instructions and guidance of their own guru and happily isolating themselves from and making serious offences to other Vaisnavas … to compare the senior disciples of Srila Gurudev (and who have spent many years being trained by him as well as by other acaryas, and who had also not come to him with a complete lack of standing in Vaisnava philosophy or practices) to such neophytes and offenders is inadvisable, and also entirely irrelevant, a ‘red herring.’
For myself, I am very grateful and happy to be associated with this sangha, to have some opportunities to hear from devotees who are so much more advanced than me, who have received so much from Gurudev that when I listen to them intently I can hear him through them – at least to that extent that I can actually hear him anyway – I am excited that there are gatherings of Gurudev’s sanga where his seniormost disciples can speak and enlighten me and reveal far more about his teachings than I could ever hope to glean from endless study on my own … and I lament my own lack that I live so far from such a sanga, that various circumstances exist in my life according to my previous lives’ choices that restrict my possibility for association in this life … and I am happy knowing that regardless of wherever I might be, Gurudev is actually here, if I can only develop the sincerity and love to turn towards him, and at the same time, to realize how hopeless is my situation, that now he has gone and I have no opportunity to ever associate intimately with him … and yet I have hope, that I might again meet and even appreciate the presence of, truly advanced souls, simply by the mercy of my eternal Guru and Krishna, who are always making the perfect arrangements, exactly according to their own perfect vision and love, at exactly the right time and in exactly the right way.
So Gurudev has told us DON’T WORRY – and as long as we are sincere, what reason do we have to worry? Do we really imagine that somehow or other, on account of all our worrying and doubting and sometimes criticising, then from that all the clear answers will arise? That unless we worry and complain and doubt, Krishna and Guru are uninterested or incapable of doing what is actually their own desire in our regards?!? If we are sincere, then we cannot be defeated by the insincerity of anyone else. Everything is going on, under the transcendental direction of Sri Guru and Gauranga – if we do not believe this, then we will see problems everywhere, and suffer accordingly. But if we can have such trust, and simply turn towards Guru and Krsna, then … well, as Srila Prabhupada said, ‘the only problem is a lack of Krsna-consciousness.’ And the only place we need to loo for such a lack is inside our own hearts and minds and faith.’ Srila Gurudev may have left our physical vision or plane – but he is absolutely present, utterly undiminished by any physical or material condition, in his transcendental status. And he has said DON”T WORRY.
All glories, all glories, to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, to Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaj, to Srila AC BHaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, to all our rupanuga acaryas, whose blessings and direction are always here, protecting and guiding us.
Narasingha das
dear Narasingha prabhu,
please accept my dandavats pranams
all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji and all glories to Sri Sri Radha Raman Bihariji
wonderful presentation, so much thanks for your input
Srila Gurudeva ordered us to provide directions, advice, and set guidelines for the spiritual progress of all the members within his mission
by the causeless mercy of Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga the message of pure Krsna Consiousness has been introduced to us
let us do some wishful thinking based upon the experience we have obtained in the past
suppose at the time of the closure of Srila Prabhupada’s manifest pastimes, the leaders in ISKCON would have followed the advice of their spiritual master and taken full advantage of the association and directions of senior Vaisnavas, what would have happened?
it could very well have been that the leaders of ISKCON had understood the tattva regarding giving guidance and spiritual nourishment to existing and new, aspiring devotees
in Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition the responsibility of giving initiation is reserved for those elevated saintly personalities that actually possess pure bhakti – this is also an inherent tattva established in the scriptures
bhaktis tu bhagavat bhakta sangena parijayate – only by the association of the Bhagavat Bhakta will bhakti enter our heart for an elevated saintly devotee’s heart is overflowing with bhakti always
suppose that the leaders of ISKCON would have requested for the process of giving spiritual guidance through siksa and diksa to be performed by their elevated Godbrothers Param Pujyapada Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja and Param Pujyapada Srila Radha Krsna Maharaja; and siksa and possible diksa by the most exalted Godbrothers and friends of Srila Prabhupada, Param Pujyapada Srila Bhaktiraksakha Sridhar Maharaja and our beloved Srila Gurudeva
if they would have been genuinely humble and able to show ideal respect, the leaders of ISKCON had the opportunity to provide such direction
however, it was not possible for them to do this because they lacked the proper training and thus their adhikara made them decide differently
you write that our leaders are so much qualified in bhakti tattva, they are well trained and able to provide spiritual guidance to all
so my proposal and sincere request is that we do not rush ahead and take our time to advice what is the best – according to spiritual tattva – for providing spiritual guidance and nourishment through siksa and diksa
Srila Gurudeva said more than once that his mission will be successful only if the sannyasis and senior preachers are devoid of all false ego and offer respect to all, to seniors, to equals and to juniors
so first and foremost respect should be given to what the scripture and our Acaryas are teaching us to be a success formula
Srila Gurudeva never, ever said that his mission will be successful if all sannyasis will start giving initiation, rather he said that if this happens it will create chaos and disaster
the scriptures say that where there is lack of respect and we assume the responsibility to accept disciples without having the capacity to liberate them from material bondage, we are committing aparadha
to accept dependents means that there will be backward pulling and for someone who is not able to swim or perform surgery, how can this person rescue or cure others?
to reason that someone has to do this and the order of my spiritual master is upon my head, this is very true but unless we are qualified we are destined to meet with failure
let us look at and take inspiration from the example of our predecessor spiritual masters, how they followed and implemented the order of their superiors:
Srila Prabhupada prepared himself for 40 + years before he executed the order of his spiritual master to go to the West
Srila Gurudeva, although requested and ordered, he waited for 18 years before giving initiation; he carefully considered what would be favorable for bhakti and how the mission of his spiritual master would remain together centered around pure bhakti
every sannyasi and senior preacher knows these facts very well; same goes for the scriptural tattva that one should never accept responsibility for others unless he can liberate them from the cycle of birth and death
I have no personal worry and I can easily sit back and watch events unfold, however Srila Gurudeva has showered loads of causeless mercy as well as profuse heartly blessings upon all of us, me included
it is his desire to establish an International Mission that is based upon PURE BHAKTI
he also emphasized that we should be very careful to always place BHAKTI as number one, rest will follow automatically
aspiring for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa – fallen and wretched
in Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition the responsibility of giving initiation is reserved for those elevated saintly personalities that actually possess pure bhakti – this is also an inherent tattva established in the scriptures’ brajanath prabhu ..
Agree wiith brajanath, isa and sudarsana prabhu 100%
this ‘politic’ let them do what they want etc.. is what iskcon did, who dont agree will be kicked from institution, i was fortunate to be kicked by read Gurudev and Sridhar Maharaj´s books, in this way if speak the truth is bad, better to be kicked, or ‘better do die’.
my experience in my country after Gurudev left is that his mission became like a ‘sahajiya sect’ with a new Acharya being worshiped as maha Bhagavata , manjari and so on …. i have to hear many times new devotees asking ‘Who is Naa raya Maharj’ some times dont know even the name of Gurudev. Its what iam seeing, no one told me, iam seeing , my eyes, in front of me. What to do? Just be silent and see all these things is very hard to those have some afection to Gurudev. Who will tolerate this?
I have heard and record in my own camera, when one devotee asked one question to Gurudev in Govardhan, brajanath may know that, Gurudev replied: “Go, go to you Guru, ??? Maharaj, he knows better than me.” You can whact by your self this video ‘baladev1′ channel.
So, some will say, let us do our bhajan and forget all thse things, remember that Gurudev wrote many books and hari katha about guru tattva, bogus gurus and so on, is Gurudev a fool, ‘Why he only did his bhajan? May be after they will doubt of Gurudev 2.
Jay Gurudev!!! Goura Hari Bol!!!
Dear Narasingha prabhu. Please accept my dandavat pranams. All glories to Guru and Gauranga and all Vaisnavas.
Many thanks for your input into this discussion as you always have many valid comments.
It is a fact that for one who is sincere,”he cannot be be cheated by the insincerity of someone else”. And it is also a fact that if we are sincere Krsna will open our eyes to these persons who are trying to cheat us (which is more than 99.99% of the people on this planet). As you have clearley pointed out many of us have been cheated in the past by ISKCON ”gurus” who are still carrying on this “charade” today with an ever increasing ferver, or in the words of philosopher George Santayan…..”Fanaticism consists of re-doubling your effort, when you have lost your aim”
So we do not want to become a “revolving door” like many pseudo-religious groups that attract people, cheat them and then discard them out the other side.
All I am saying is that we should be vigilant so that we do not fall into the same trap.
When your former ISKCON “guru” had an audience with Srila Gurudeva I was a little confused about this, and even angry, but now I can see that (well this is my understanding anyway) he was acting in the capacity of uttama adkhicari and seeing everyone equally, just as Narada Muni who would have audience with the Pandavas but also the Kuru dynasty.
We however should not think that Gurudeva was in any way giving VALIDATION to this person or to any of his previous activities nor should we associate with such personalities.
The point also that I was trying to make in relation to Brajanatha prabhu’s reply was that niether should we become like “prostitutes” ourselves and glorify persons that have a clear history of criminal behaviour, deception and abuse against other devotees.
As far as any negative influences regarding Gurus and Sannyasis in our own sanga I do not know them well enough to comment, nor would I make any comment on hearsay other than to say that we are in a ”unique” position to “get it right”; not just with the benifit of hindsight but with the efforts of many sincere persons in our sanga who are sincerely trying to follow Srila Gurudeva’s instructions.
vaisnava dasanudas
sudarsana
Once Suddhadvaiti Maharaj told one sanyassi (???): “Oh Maharaj (???), everyone here likes you, you are like a guru here.”
this sanyassi reply : “Yes, iam a guru, and a guru needs disciples.”
it was what i have heard, in Gurudev presence, no one told me, i have heard. Maharaj can tell everyone if iam telling lie.
What to do? Some may say nothing can be done. Othrs can say, yes we should do some thing.
Everyone Should Be Selfish
About Their Eternal Welfare
by Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda
Question 4: Is it possible for a human being to describe the affairs of the transcendental plane?
Answer: Only a person who has descended from the spiritual world can speak about that place. One who belongs to the phenomenal world cannot actually report on matters of the transcendental plane. However, upon receiving the fortune of hearing hari-kathā from the lotus lips of a great personality who has descended from the spiritual world, one can obtain information about Vaikuṇṭha – the infinite Kingdom of God.
No transcendental entity can be comprehended through a worldly line of thought. It is not appropriate to consider the transcendent and the phenomenal to be one and the same. With good fortune, one may find a great person who has come from the other world. Śrī Caitanyadeva has therefore said:
kṛṣṇa yadi kṛpā karena kona bhāgyavāne
guru-antaryāmī rūpe śikhāye āpane
Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya-līlā 22.47)
When a soul becomes extremely fortunate, Śrī Kṛṣṇa showers mercy upon him by coming personally to teach him. He appears externally in the form of śrī guru, and internally in the form of the Supersoul.
Dandavat Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Jai Sri Radhe
Dear Prabhus and Didis,
Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Maharaja are oceans of mercy. I have been told that Srila Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Maharaja was very close to Srila Gurudeva and is a long time supporter of our sanga.
That being said, there is unlimited service to do for Srila Gurudeva’s mission, book distribution and publishing, lecture transcription and editing, etc…
There are 4000 lectures of Srila Gurudeva, as His disciples we should ask ourselves how much time are we devoting to reading His books and listening to His lectures and serving Him through out the day. The above mentioned Vaisnavas and the Sr. members of our sanga are here to help guide us.
Srila Gurudeva cautions us:
“They should consider what kind of guru someone is before taking initiation from him.”
Srila Prabhupada explains:
Simply by associating with a pure devotee, one becomes wonderfully advanced in Krsna consciousness. Sadhu-sanga, or association with a devotee, means always engaging in Krsna consciousness by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra… but he whose heart is contaminated sees things differently. Therefore by sat-sanga, or association with devotees, one becomes perfectly pure in heart.
SB 4.24.59 P Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Siva
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has repeatedly said:’sadhu-sanga’, ‘sadhu-sanga’—-sarva-sastre kayalava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya
The summary is that one has to, first of all, seek the association of pure devotees who not only are learned in the Vedanta but are self-realized souls and unalloyed devotees of Lord Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead. In that association, the neophyte devotees must render loving service physically and mentally without reservation. This service attitude will induce the great souls to be more favorable in bestowing their mercy, which injects the neophyte with all the transcendental qualities of the pure devotees.
your servant
Isa das
Isa Prabhu dandavats ……
very good to know what you think, espeacially because for me you are making a lot of guru-seva with videos who is now our hope, the gurudev vani is given to all trogh you, thank you ..
I can say what i have heard from Sanyassis fof Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, where this 2 mentioneted sanyassis live.
1- (B.Dayita Madhav Goswami biographi) says. “In the letter leaft by the Acharyya Madhav Goswami maharaj, was writen: ‘I have chosen with the help and aproove of my god-brothers that Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj will be the next Acharya of Chaitanya gaudiya Math. and more “I have chosen Him, B.B.Tirtha Goswami, because here In Math i have no other disciple like Him.” and more .. “One who gives full pleasure to my heart is Tirtha Goswami maharaj.”
2 in the introdution of the book “Parisads’ of Tirtha Goswami, B.Promode Puri Goswami told about the author. “Tirtha Maharaj have showwed a inteligence beyond of any ordinary person, that despite old age, he is able to manage all C.G.Math in all india, publishing books and preaching all over the world, its not possible for any ordinary jiva.”
Is good to tell that the secretary of Chaitanya Gaudiya Math is a very qualified sanyassi also called Bhakti Saurabh Acharya Maharaj …..
3- Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami Maharaj told: “No doubt, Tirtha Maharaj is a Sad-Guru, who will take diksha from him, certainly will be beneficied.”
4- Bhakti Promode Puri Goswami also told (you can see at sreecgmath.org) that “Tirtha Maharaj is a eternal assocate of Nayana Manjari.”
So after that, he will have doubt??? as brajanath prabhu told “Unfortunate”
Goura Hari Bol!!!
another point rs
Gurudev told in recent articles about guru-tattva, posted today that “One should give initiations knowing that they will be only a chanel, not the real thing.”
and he also gave the example of Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj.
i meditate in Govinda maharaj guru-nistha, even Gurudev have told that his guru-nistha is great, why??? i think that is because he never though he was Guru. He always told: “You are receiving the blessings of Guru Maharaj (Sridhar maharaj), and Gurudev told tthey ‘sanyassis’ should act like that … its very important, Gurudev told they should think like that, so that they would know that they are only slaves and conecting others with Him, not by theirselfs, for me its clear …
So let us learn how we should act as instrument and never indepedent from Sri Guru with Govinda maharaj …..
also one time Vaikhanas maharaj asked in class: “If madhyama or kanistha can not give bhakti why we go to chant, preach etc ..” Gurudev told: “All the results will go by sri Guru Acharya mercy, you are just instruments.”
its very easy but is also dificult when position come, disciples and adoration comes … at that time we will see who is who, why they came to the lotus feet of Gurudev.
The sad guru also never thinks he is Guru but only a instrument, a representative.
YES … gaurasundar prabhu ….
another detail is that when i heard such thing from sanyassi, we were in one room, and Gurudev was just in the next room …… imagine the shock i got in ….
Very good that we already dont gave up this super-important discussion, as posted today Kanistha and madhyamas should lead disciples to Uttama ….
if we have madhyamas why they are not leading any one to Uttama Bhagavata???
in my country many are confused, yesterday one told me “The sanyassis dont reply me, its very bad” ….
i think if we are detached from institution and disciples we should say to all Where Uttama Bhagavatas are, other wise we will be blamed for ever for that …….
Dandavat Pranams
“did not point at Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja.”
There are stories that Srila Prabhupada did point out Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja and Srila Govinda Maharaja from south India. Tamal Krsna Mhj freaked out because of this and covered up Srila Prabhupada instructions and sent out his own paper.
BV Bhagavat Maharaja can explain further.
[...]
From a darsana in 1992:
Srila Gurudeva: Why are you bothering about these things? You have connection with a real guru, so what problems are with you?
Syamarani dasi: None. But we are surrounded by people in ISKCON who have these problems and are asking these questions.
Srila Gurudeva: They should work out their problems. Why are you wasting your time with this? I am also travelling in so many places, and I am not bothered. I believe in akandha-guru tattva – purna-guru-tattva (the full, complete, undivided principle of guru).
will be posting more shortly [...]
ys
Raghava
Dandavats all and Dear Raghava Prabhu well first a Guruposition paper is posted and then the devotes invited to comment — “These papers will certainly stimulate discussion and responses from devotees around the world. That is a good thing. Please keep the discussions philosophical and respectful. The discussions may center around guru-tattva or they may explore other areas of personal and sanga development. This is a challenging and exciting time. Let your voices be heard. ”
Then when we do we get smashed with :- From a darsana in 1992:
Srila Gurudeva: Why are you bothering about these things? You have connection with a real guru, so what problems are with you?
Syamarani dasi: None. But we are surrounded by people in ISKCON who have these problems and are asking these questions.
Srila Gurudeva: They should work out their problems. Why are you wasting your time with this? I am also travelling in so many places, and I am not bothered. I believe in akandha-guru tattva – purna-guru-tattva (the full, complete, undivided principle of guru).
Well you totally got us the first time around and now ” will be posting more shortly [...]
ys
Raghava ” to see if we are dumb enough to bight again?
So due to many of Gurudevas Sanga [and especially my self] criticizing ISKcon for having a majority of non-selfrealised souls as Gurus now their qualities will come to us and we will become the same .So its an inevitable and well deserved punishment by Krishna and we should silently accept our punishment ?
Radhe radhe !!
Pranams dearest Mathuranath prabhu ji ….
The discussions on Sri Guru-tattva have been going on for decades it appears, if not milleniums now. Apologies if it appears as if I was trying to “smash” anyone or anything. I guess what Srila Gurudeva was saying, and that’s why I quoted it, is “Take care of your own intentions and sincere prayers, then Krishna will surely reward us with His mahat-sanga and guru-krpa.. ” Our Guru Maharaja would say the same thing, “What is it to you? … Do your bhajan and develop krsna-prema … ”
I do appreciate your comments here very much though. Sharing and discussing all angles is helpful as long as it is done with humble heart and respectful attitude….
ys Raghava
i think its very good to discuss this point freely, with the rights to understand this its impossible to think about krishna, who we never saw ….
with out a bona fide uttama to gide no one can develop bhajan .. thats why this point is serious … it may help many to acept a high classs devotee to guide us …..
also i apreciate this in our society, free discussion, no ofensive mentality or name were pointed out here …. its the good point .. even if it will never change all society this discussion can help one and others …. and may be by that the future is guaranted to all …..
gurudev also told many times that we have to say what we think, very boldly, with out fear …. iam happy that i can follow him here ….. thanks all and glories to the pure devotees of Mahaprabhu!!!!
Take care of your own intentions and sincere prayers, then Krishna will surely reward us with His mahat-sanga and guru-krpa.. ” Our Guru Maharaja would say the same thing, “What is it to you? … Do your bhajan and develop krsna-prema … ”
so, if we get the words of a maha Bhagavata with out study all thing we wll be misguided.
If Gurudev really think like that why he preached so much boldly about Guru Tattva???
Sridhar Goswami Maharaj also he told so much, of course in the final he told, any way it will be decided by sukriti, but before he told a book about that. Ultimatly is Krishna will , but as Srila Sridhar Maharaj say we are more to Vedakalai school, that we have to do some thing, with out that we would be like tedankalai school, ‘we shoul do nothing’, let Krishna do all. Its not right in his understanding ….
and thats is what Ikscon use to say …. “Whats the use of discuss that. Do your sadhana and be happy.” so now that we have many wrong things going on its very easy to say “Alright, lets go do our bhajan and forget that” …
but its very dificult to acept the reality head by head, as in war .. and continue with our sadhana sincerily …. as Srila Sridhar Maharaj say “God is not for weaked heart” We have to always be alert to not be cheated in this kali yuga … we are prepared to not acept any thing in the name of “Let us do our bhajan” … Lets this book “Sermons of guardian” be glorious in all 3 worlds
My dear Mathuranatha prabhu, and dear Baladeva prabhu, pranams
The meeting and relationship between guru and disciple is a very personal thing.
Usually our immediate previous acaryas did not indicate “such and such is an uttama-adhikari”.
.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada did not point at any of his disciples in particular;
Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada revealed to us his guru’s mind saying that ” his idea was that the devotees should manage with a strong GBC and the self-effulgent acarya would manifest.
Himself did not point at Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja.
Another consideration is that not all souls have the sukrti and subsequent adhikara to approach a maha-bhagavata. They will aproach who they can “afford” according to their sukrti. And this shouldn’t be interfered with, as by accepting even a kanistha guru we have seen so many devotees increase their sukrti and then be able to come to a saint like Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja or to Srila Gurudeva.
We are not the controllers.
We can indicate someone that we see as qualified if we’re asked or we may do so out of neophyte enthusiasm but you cannot accuse the senior devotees in the leadership of not pointing to whom you think is qualified and conclude that if they don’t it means that it is because they have some ulterior motive.
Ys
dandavats dear Maharaji … agree with you in some points .. but dont agree (respectfully) with this …
Usually our immediate previous acaryas did not indicate “such and such is an uttama-adhikari”.
We see that in Sri Chaitanya Sarasvati Math, the most great Srila Sridhar Goswami Maharaj apointed Srila B.Sundar Govinda Maharaj as Acharya. (we can read at his books about that)
Also in Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, Sri Srila B.Dayita Madhav Goswami Maharaj apointed and told to all before his departre that Sr Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj would be the next Acharya since he had no disciples like him there. These were Madhav Goswami words. (these words were transcribed and published in Madhav Goswami biographi and Puri Goswami words was published in the beggining of the book ‘Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu parisads.’
In other Maths also we see that some Acharyas were selected by the previous Acharyas. In another cases as our not. One time i remember reading one article in VNN, Gurudev told the reprter that he would not apoint any one because there was not qualified devotee to be Acharya, and that probably next would apear in another Math.
a agree with you that its a question of sukriti and sincerity and that we can not interfer, thats what iam doing …. my Siksha Guru dont want disciples ….. so i follow him.
another point is that if i think , as u told, sure i would be wrong as iam a fool, but the point here is that Gurudev´s siksha Gurus have apointed, not me …. You can read at Tirtha Goswami Books or listen to their sanyassis what many of Srila sarasvati Thakur discples told about Him. just to point some. B.P.Puri Goswami, B.K.Santa Goswami, B.D.Madhav Goswami, Krishna Keshav Brahmachari, B.S. Trivikram Goswami .. All these our beloved Gurudev acepted as Siksha Guru, so my understand is What Gurudev and these personalities have told, they have told, i have to follow with out think so much.
if you prove to me that this idea is wrong, please say to me that i can see if its bad so that i can change my thoughts ….
about acusing others, iam not acusing , iam only asking why dont say that in another Math have a Maha Bhagavata, if Gurudev say that even Madhyama Adhikaris should go there to listen? may be iam more inclinated to the mentality of Paramadvaiti Maharaj and WVA .. but its only a institional thing .. not so important to me since we can serve our Gurudv in any place as he always told … i just can not believe that we have Maha Bhagavata in another Math, apointed by many great M.Bhagavatas as told, and we can not be humble at point to say freely … the words of Brajanath Prabhu (who acepted Him) is very significative …
“Many can not tolerate the superiority of others.” It remember me Gurudev saying about envy and the explanation of B.Thakur about :
“Envy is when some one can not tolerate the superiority of others”
thats what i think .. other points i agree with you … and you know you helped me so much .. iam endebted to you Suddhadvaiti Maharaj … afection
another point Maharaj …. iam saying these thing only here , .. you know that here where i live all already have 1 Siksha Guru and you know well who is …. so no question to say other thing … today if some one ask me what i think i answer “Do what you think and be happy” as you told we are not controllers … sukriti and sincerity leads a devotee to this or that Siksha Guru.
My Dear Suddhadvaiti Maharaja , I was just remembered how some of Parampujapada Gourgovinda Swamis disciples asked Him if they could go and take darshan of Srila Bhakti Promoda Puri Maharaja who had just arrived near by in Mayapur and he said yes they should go . And then they asked if He would also like to go and He replied he would so very much like to go but He could not go [due to the political dynamics in ISKcon Gurus were not allowed to go outside to take association] . And of course there was the situation where many leaders in ISKcon were disallowed from taking Siksa from Sril Gurudeva . That sort of scenario was what I was refering to when i mentioned “they will as dictated by their exemplary vaisnava sadachar take siksha , though perhaps discreetly if there is opposition or politics “. I was really meaning that if the leaders of our society were not leading the way to the Lotus feet of The mahabhagava Uttama Vaisnavas it was due to either being not able to recognize who the preeminent Vaisnava Achariya[s] at present are , or the situational dynamics are somewhat akin in embryonic form to the a fore mentioned circumstances within ISkcon “ie :- there may be some subtle pressure not to discriminate between aGurus adikar within our own sanga as well as out side .
So [of course without mentioning any names ] would it be beneficial to have an in depth open and robust debate on the symptoms of kanista , madyama and uttam Vaisnavas ? Sooner rather than later for the benefit of both asspiring disciples and aspiring Gurus?
Radhe Radhe
You may also see this section of a recently published article “Aparadha – Our Greatest Obstacle”:
“One Should Never Go To Anyone Else Outside Of Our Group…”
Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja: In Vedic culture, the son of a brahmana would not necessarily be a brahmana. It was dependent on guna-karma-vibhagasah:
cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ
tasya kartāram api māṁ
viddhy akartāram avyayam
[According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. Bg 4.13]
Meaning one’s qualification, only. So go on.
Prema Prayojana prabhu then continued speaking, describing how Maharaja Rsabhdeva instructed Bharata Maharaja, and his other ninety-nine sons. He then quoted the following sloka:
mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes
tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam
mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā
vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ sādhavo ye
[One can attain the path of liberation from material bondage only by rendering service to highly advanced spiritual personalities. These personalities are impersonalists and devotees. Whether one wants to merge into the Lord's existence or wants to associate with the Personality of Godhead, one should render service to the mahātmās. For those who are not interested in such activities, who associate with people fond of women and sex, the path to hell is wide open. The mahātmās are equipoised. They do not see any difference between one living entity and another. They are very peaceful and are fully engaged in devotional service. They are devoid of anger, and they work for the benefit of everyone. They do not behave in any abominable way. Such people are known as mahātmās. Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2]
Describing how the association of great personalities opens the door to liberation, Srila Maharaja then continued to speak. In recent times, he said, the original explanation of slokas like this have been discarded, and other, different explanations are now given instead. According to the new explanations, those who make them claim that “One should only take shelter of our Gurudeva, or of someone else who comes from our group. One should never go to anyone else outside of our group. It doesn’t matter who they are. Even though it may be Krishna in the shape of a sadhu, or even Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu in person, if They are outside of our group, then it is forbidden to see Them. And, if you disobey these rules, then we shall throw you out of the group. You must only see the sadhus who are in our little group.”
But this is not the meaning of this sloka, or of any other. Such statements are nowhere to be found in sastra.
Bhakti Is Not Confined By Any Sectarian Limitations
I see that so many devotees now want to come and hear Harikatha, but due to their weakness of mind, they become controlled. Those who are trying to control them are acting against Vaisnava etiquette, and are committing great offense. If any person is giving an invitation to come and hear Harikatha, and another person warns people not to go and hear, then he is guilty of the biggest kind of offense. Neither in history, nor in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the Mahabharata, nor the Ramayana, have we ever seen Vaisnavas act like this. So this poison is now being given. You should know that whoever is giving this poison is not even a Vaisnava, what to speak of a qualified Guru. If a so-called Guru is giving an order like this, he should most certainly be rejected. We are followers of Krishna bhakti. If we see a person who is qualified to give us that Krishna-bhakti, then we should hear from them. Bhakti is not confined by any sectarian limitations. Wherever any bonafide Vaisnava is speaking hari- katha, and Srimad-Bhagavatam we should most certainly go to hear from them. If such a Vaisnava is present, and we do not go to hear from him, then we are guilty of offence.
So, the explanations of sastra have become different now. Actually, the explanations have not changed, but the mentality of those who try to make them has. So I think that you should not obey these false instructions, regardless of who makes them. Even if your Guru says this, then he must be rejected. This is Vaisnava etiquette. Go on. [...]
ys Raghava
dandavats mathuranath prabhu …
it was the same question i put to many in our sanga …
some months ago i asked this same to Vaikhanas Maharaj about if madhyama adhikari can really know how is uttama etc .. he told me yes, but not fully … then i reply that so the answer is “No” they can not know .. and then he gave me many explanations but with out clear all my doubts on this point ….
i also asked about this to sanyassis from my Siksha Guru Tirtha Goswami and they told me that : “Who was present in their meeting saw that the relation between Tirtha Goswami and Narayan Goswami is transcendental.” then i told Them about situation and they told me many things ….
u can see in Sree Chaitanya Gaudiya Math how they glorify our Gurudev, and how they glorify Santa Goswami even when he was present. My Siksha Guru even went to take blessings from Him, even he, A Maha Bhagavata went take blessings … now the question: A Maha Bhagavata is taking blessings , and what about madhyamas, they dont need such blessings? Gurudev always emphatized that, even madhyama., elevated devotees need uttama association .. what to think?
my sid i realize that we can not fear to go there, they are our hope, with out Them, we are nothing, we have to be humble and bow down our heads to Them, they are great , we are small , they can control maya, we are controled by maya ..
another point my sanyassis friends told me is that “Our Gurudev is so much humble, so its dificult to see him as Maha Bhagavata.” myself, a most fool in the world, one time i took his darsan, and he was paying pranam to me … Srila Sridhar Maharaj once told he was the personification of trnad api sunic …. so many declared that .. why not acept and declare to all? its not me but great souls have told … for the beneficy of all, please consider this points …. at any time he can left the world and we will be lost.
Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Suddhadvaiti Maharaja,
please accept my dandavats pranams
all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji and all glories to Sri Sri Radha Raman Bihariji
you are writing:
‘Another consideration is that not all souls have the sukrti and subsequent adhikara to approach a maha-bhagavata. They will aproach who they can “afford” according to their sukrti. And this shouldn’t be interfered with, as by accepting even a kanistha guru we have seen so many devotees increase their sukrti and then be able to come to a saint like Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja or to Srila Gurudeva.’
fortunate are you and others who had enough sukrti and adhikara to never fall in the trap of frauds and kali chelas
do you know what a traumatic experience it is to accept a k….guru and being instructed by so called leaders of a spiritual institution to worship and see that k…guru as an U…Guru?
not only that, do you know what it feels to be instructed to disrespect and offend authentic, maha bhagavat Vaisnavas? this is not sukrti Maharaja, this is utter deception in the name of providing spiritual guidance; the only reason that some of us were saved is due to the causeless mercy of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, Srila Gurudeva and other Santa Mahatmas
I have witnessed devotees, brothers and sisters, commit actual and spiritual suicide after they discovered that their so called bona fide spiritual master was finally exposed to be a fraud
in Gaudiya Math they have the spiritual dignity to reserve the responsibility of accepting followers by the process of initiation to the one that has ideal character and has rendered profuse, outstanding service to his own spiritual master
in Gaudiya Math history the devotees that are requested to accept this responsibility have done so with utmost humility and without demanding to be worshiped and placed on a pedestal
whatever they have not done in the eyes of spiritually aspiring corporate entrepreneurs, at least the Gaudiya Math history has a glorious spiritual leadership and up to this day their initiating spiritual masters display ideal character
our own beloved Gurudeva repeatedly refused to accept followers by the process of initiation and only started to do so 18 years after his own Gurumaharaja had closed his manifest pastimes on this planet – why did he do so? because he was not qualified? or where there other reasons? perhaps no one had the sukrti to be initiated by him?
none of this was relevant because he actually performed the service of spiritually nourishing all who came to him; he flooded them with the spiritual bhava that was overflowing from his own heart and transcendental body
what did Srila Prabhupada do after he received sannyasa in the year 1959? did he start giving initiation to whoever came in front of him? why did he wait until 1966 to give mantra initiation? was he not qualified or what was the reason? was there no need to safe the poor, fallen jivas?
none of this is true for we all know that Srila Prabhupada had a special mission which was far beyond the scope of anyone’s imagination; he kept the order of his Gurumaharaja as most sacred and after tangible results manifested initiating became a concomitant aspect of his service to his Gurumaharaja
we are supposed to follow their example as well as their teachings……………………
but nowadays what do we see? it even started when Srila Gurudeva was performing his manifest pastimes and that is why Srila Gurudeva became very unhappy; before Srila Gurudeva had given anyone instruction to give initiation already certain devotees started doing so and many others started to discuss the prospect of doing so in the future after Srila Gurudeva’s physical departure
Srila Gurudeva thought for quite a few years and then called all sannyasis, ordering them to start initiating at once so that he himself could observe the chaos that would be produced from this
so many of you know this and yet you hide behind phrases such as
‘They will aproach who they can “afford” according to their sukrti.’
with all due respect Maharaja, already some ugly things are going in the name of giving initiation and acting as spiritual teachers; you know this very well and in your sannyasa and other meetings you are speaking out loud, refusing certain sannyasis to travel and preach in areas where you are cultivating devotees
fortunately you have the sukrti to mention this in certain circles but what about the poor, innocent new comers who have no sukrti at all? I hear stories that some of them are forced to wash the l… feet of their new guru and subsequently again forced to drink the c…mrta
I hope that all this is just a tale, or a bad dream… and never took place
only 1 year has passed after the closure of Srila Gurudeva’s manifest pastimes and strong indications are there that history will repeat itself
fortunate are those who have received the causeless mercy of a nitya parikra – sakshad hari – uttama Maha Bhagavat Vaisnava
I pray to Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada that they will shower their causeless mercy upon all who contemplate the responsibility of giving mantra initiation; that they will be inspired to be honest and simpleminded so as not to bewilder and disappoint their prospective followers
better would that we halt this process until the senior, already initiated devotees are indicating which devotees actually provide and possess spiritual nourishment; after all, bhakti can only be given by someone who has bhakti in his/her own heart
then only will we be able to honestly provide spiritual guidance and shelter to new, aspiring devotees
if we leave it up to the individual to judge his/her own qualification we are in for a traumatic repeat of history
latest news from the most influential corporate semi spiritual organization, branded by their members as the only authentic pure Bhakti Institution :
http://prabhupadavision.com/2012/01/prabhavisnu-falldown/
The GBC and especially the Gurus realize that this is a terrible situation as it shines the spotlight on their own illegal status as Gurus in ISKCON and yet again exposes them, as a group, as not being qualified to be initiating spiritual masters in our Vaiṣṇava tradition under Śrīla Prabhupāda.
How many more fall downs is our international community going to be privy to before the general devotees wake from their slumber of denial and ignorance and begin to outrightly reject these criminals whose selfish intentions are relentlessly being exposed and who continually bring disrepute to our glorious Vaisnava tradition?
aspiring for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa – wretched and fallen
Dandavat pranams Sriman Brajanath prabhu, you make many very good points here.
I was only the other day looking at an ISKCON site at the 2008 and 2009 “vyasa puja” celeb’s of Prabavisnu ‘swami’ (respectively) beying glorified by Jananivas das and Pankajangari das in Mayapur (2008) and again by Amogha das and Jayapataka swami in (2009) this almost made me want to vomit!
I was made aware of the nefarious nature of this rascal Prabhavisnu as far back as the late eighties when he and Ramai swami, (also Naresvara (ex BBT) and Balarama das (former Melbourne TP) conspired at a secret meeting to protect the worst serial paediphile in ISKCON – Kripa Kara das (former Adelaide TP).
What sort of a charade is this? What sort of credibility do these “so called” Prabhupada disciples have when they are glorifying such a sad and pathetic individual like Prabhavisnu? What sort of Guru is this who protects a cockroach like Kripa Kara who rapes a 13 year old girl (my daughter), then goes on to rape his own 13 year old daughter and only 5 years ago raped his 9 year old grandaughter!
This is why I wrote the booklet Gandiva Slokas in 2005 and distributed it around Australia to lampoon these pathetic pretenders and discredit them.
We all know what happened in Mayapur and Vrndavan in 1996 when Suhotra (remember him?) was GBC leader and was banning devotees from visiting Srila Gurudeva. It was the same year I was complaining about the conspiracy of Prabhavisnu and Ramai to Suhotra and suggesting that they remove Ramai over child sex abuse coverups, neglect and incompetence and what did they do about it at the annual Mayapur GBC meeting they made him “Chairman of the GBC”! what a
farce, what bunch of hypocrites!
The saddest thing in all of this is the multitudes of cheated souls that have been duped and continue to be duped by rascals and fools masquerading as “advanced” Prabhupada disciples and gurus in ISKCON we should be constantly vigilant about this ”diseased” mentality infecting our own relationships within our own sanga.
vaisnava das anudas
sudarsana
The Guru Nistha of the most glorious Maha Bhagavata Sri Srimad Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami Maharaj.
from a lecture given in G.V.Samiti in presence of Vaman Goswami Maharaj.
During the British regime, I went to Rangoon, Burma, for preaching. Then Sripad Yajaka Maharaj and I were companions. One day I read,
jivera svarupa hoy krishna nitya dasa
krishnera tatastha sakti bhedabheda-prakasa
The exact position of a jiva is that he is a nitya-dasa (eternal servant) of Krishna. He is Krishna’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti) and bhedabheda-prakasa (manifestation of the Lord, both different from and identical with Him). (CC 2.20.108)
I told Yajak Maharaja, “Maharaja, I do not accept this.” He said, “What are you saying? This was written by Srila Krishna Das Kaviraj. Who are you to not accept it?”
I then wrote an essay explaining my realization called Bhritya paricaya (“The signs of a servant”) and sent it to the daily Nadiya Prakasa. At that time, Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaj and Bhakti Kusum Sraman Maharaj (then Krishna Kanti Brahmachari) were the editor and publisher respectively of this daily newspaper.
In my article, I wrote, “It is true that the individual soul’s eternal identity is to be the servant of Lord Krishna. Nevertheless, it is impossible for me to accept this. Why? Because I have no acquaintance with Krishna. I have never seen Him. I do not know Him, I do not understand Him and I have not attained Him.” At the conclusion of my article, I wrote, “My qualifications can be known from the service I render my guru. If I have any identity, it is that I am a servant of my guru.”
Srila Prabhupada read the essay and said with tears in his eyes, “What a great thing has been written by such a little boy!” He said to Krishna Kanti Prabhu, “Please write to him that his gurudeva blesses him after reading his article.”
This is the truth. Where have we seen Krishna? We have seen a stone statue. Sri Gurudeva takes away my earthly or material understanding; he removes the cataract from my eyes. I shall be able to see the Lord by his grace. To whom, therefore, shall I give most importance? How can I give the same degree of importance to anyone else? I shall only offer respect to other sadhus with a view to getting the mercy of my guru, for in this life I am not ready to admit any other person, whoever he may be, if it means losing the mercy of my spiritual master
Madhya-lila: Chapter Twenty-two, Text 86
Association with a pure devotee for even half a moment in this material world is the greatest treasure for human society.
Dandavats Suddhadvaiti Maharaja and all Sannyassis Prabhus and Diddies .
Follows is my understanding for your kind consideration and correction as required
The Lord of our lives Bhagavan Sri Krishna himself advises one who wants to know the truth to approach a self realised soul , in the verse beginning “tad viddhi praṇipātena …..” That is Krishna’s guarantee that selfrealised souls are always available , otherwise He would say ” if available ” . And we can practically see that since the time of Lord Caitanya and especially since Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura all the Acharias are all known and well recognized and accepted by our sanga and there are no gaps .
But just as in the time of Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur , when the Thakur left this word many said ” now there is no one ,the Thakura has left He was the last etc ” . And when Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sariswati Thakura left , many thought now there is no self realised Guru , he was the last . And when Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada left many say now there is no one who is totally pure and sees Bhagavan Sri Krishna at every moment .But Krishna says approach a tatva darshi ,that means they are always available , as has always been the case up till now despite the doubters .
And a madhyama devotee can actually recognize what level a vaisnava is , whether kanista , madhyama or uttama . And they will hear from and serve the Uttama devotee – thats normal Vaisnava sadachar . A kanista however can not recognize who is uttama and will think Uttama are kanistas , and kanistas [himself ] are uttamas .
So real madyamas will be quite aware of , and acquainted with uttama Vaisnava,s . And after the departure of their own Nittyasiddah , Paramahams thakura utama mahabhagavat Gurudeva , they will as dictated by their exemplary vaisnava sadachar take siksha , though perhaps discreetly if there is opposition or politics .
Kanistas however will not see any uttama devotees available on the planet and misconstruing their own adikar and declaring them selves madyama will “do the need full untill an uttama mahabhagavat appears ”
So my question is retrospectively , considering Parampujapada Srila Sridhar Maharajas and Srila Gurudevas and Parampujapada Srila Gourgovinda’s presence on the planet , what was the need for Parampujapada Srila AC Bhaktivedantas Swamis kanista/madyama? disciples to become Gurus? Surely if they had at least stepped back , or preferably directed aspiring sishas to those great souls , all involved would have benefited so much more than they did ?
Can we do it better this time around ? I hope so . I am ashamed to admit I vilified some who ” blooped to go over the river ” to Parampujapada Srila Sridhar Maharaja in the early eighties . And supported the conditioned souls forced to act as Guru because “there was no one else “.
Prabhupada knew they would do what they did then and Srila Gurudeva knew what would happen now . And they love their disciples and accept the inevitable . But is it their preferred outcome and shouldnt we try for the best? Like the Gaudia Vedanta Samhiti after param Gurudeva left ? The kanistas and madhyamas kept their heads down and let the uttamas run the show . So its unlikely but possible is all I,m suggesting . Radhe Radhe !!
ha, thats the point, i think prabhuji is raising a most beneficial point to all …..
the question is not that is aceptable have madhyama qualified gurus, no doubt ….. not about guru tattva on this regard …
But, the question is “If madhyama can recognize uttama, Why they are not telling??? or as prabhu told ” though perhaps discreetly if there is opposition or politics . “???
and if they know where uttama bhagavata is, why dont tell free??? with out ‘institution’ or politics’ intention? as Gurudev always preach?
ok, if we say , ‘No one knows where he is, then where is madhyamas, who can recognize them?
and if we say, ‘yes, they can recognize, we may ask, ‘why not telling to welfare of all baddha jivas?
the only thing to think is …. ‘the atitude that we are taking is the same as iskcon’ no one knows, if knows dont tell ……
now , yesterday B.Kumud Santa Goswami (99years) Gurudev´s siksa Guru went to hospital, may be some days more he will left ‘unknowing’ by many …. till some days ago he was not only giving diksha troght rit vik but also inaugurating a large temple in Mayapur “Thats how Maha Bhagavata work even in ill passtimes.”
and if we wait more, the other Maha Bhagavata (88years) may left, then we will be happy and say to all: “Now we have the best Gurus?”
please, consider this point …. its not criticize any one, but the atitude we are taking towards these great Sad-Gurudevs.
Mahuranatha prabhu told:
“Prabhupada knew they would do what they did then and Srila Gurudeva knew what would happen now . And they love their disciples and accept the inevitable . But is it their preferred outcome and shouldnt we try for the best? Like the Gaudia Vedanta Samhiti after param Gurudeva left ? The kanistas and madhyamas kept their heads down and let the uttamas run the show . So its unlikely but possible is all I,m suggesting . Radhe Radhe !!”
i sugest the same for the beneficy of our sanga, of our Gurudev, and of all baddha jivas in the world.
Dear Mathuranatha prabhus
pranams
You know me as a staunch upholder of our beloved Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja’s strict teachings on guru-tattva. However, we have to carefully analyze things.
Srila A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada consistently preached that a sad-guru is a pure devotee, a self-realized, liberated soul, an uttama-adhikari, a maha-bhagavata. However, in order to continue his mission, he hinted that his disciples could act as gurus even if they had not achieved this standard level, if they became qualified madhyama-adhikaris.
“Yes, I shall say who is guru, ‘Now you become acarya. You become authorized.’ I am waiting for that. You become, all, acarya. But the training must be complete. The process of purification must be there. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana. You become guru. But be qualified. Little thing. Strict follower. Not rubber stamp. Then you’ll not be effective.” (Bombay 04.77)
He mentioned the limitations of the guidance of both madhyamas and kanisthas and, given these limitations, he advised one not to settle for less than the best:
«A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform [ a kanistha cannot initiate a madhyama] and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. » (Nectar of Instruction, ch5 end of purport)
Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, Gurudeva, as a perfect follower of Srila Prabhupada, did exactly the same.
It is appropriate to emphasize the superiority and ultimate necessity of a maha-bhagavata guru. That doesn’t mean that there is no place or validity for qualified madhyama-adhikari gurus, who are empowered by Krishna and their gurus. They are not mutually exclusive but complementary figures.
The role of madhyama-adhikari gurus is very important in the deliverance of the jivas. They connect with Krishna consciousness people who would maybe otherwise never know or enter bhakti. Then they help them to progress and be more and more qualified. This function of the madhyama-adhikari guru cannot be minimized on the pretext that it is incomplete, but appreciated. In the last few years, when Srila Gurudeva started to express his desire that his qualified madhyama-adhikari sannyasis should start to initiate their own disciples, he clarified the limitations of their power. The fact that they are not capable to give the same as an uttama-bhagavata dosn’t mean they’re a fraud or useless.
That being said, madhyama gurus, like any empowered preacher, don’t just give exactly what they personally have, but are also a medium of mercy of their gurus coming through them, so Srila Gurudeva, while pointing at their limitations, acknowledged their validity.
This Guru Position paper is doing just that.
ys
just yesterday i was seeing italy morning walk, suddhadvaiti maharaj raised this question to Gurudev…. asram maharaj also told that what is the best , kanistha and madhyama could initiate in the absence of uttama? Gurudev reply “Its better that they should send them to Uttama Bhagavatas.” and if they want to give what can you do? many are not even kanistha and are doing, what can we do? After Gurudev told minimum asakti to give … and in Our Gurus book Gurudev clearly says: “Devotees at stage of asakti are very, very rare.” and after Gurudev say: “You can test your ‘no pure guru’, I want to associate with that ‘any’ Maha Bhagavata, can you give permission? If he says NO, and he also dont go, then you should reject him. He is not a real Guru any way.”
To see the videos … Srila Gurudeva morning walk, italy
dandavats pranams Pujyapada Suddhadvaiti Maharaja respected Isa prabhu, respected Mathuranath prabhu, respected Baladeva prabhu and all other readers
I happened to come across a posting on my facebook page and felt like sharing it with you
I am not an expert on Guru Tattva; what I have received is the personal association of our beloved Gurudeva for a large amount of time; his abundant heartly blessings and causeless mercy are the source of my spiritual wealth
in whatever way the following article will inspire us will depend upon the state of our own heart; myself I see the contents as a good lesson and a strong warning for those who desire to take up the responsibility of giving initiation and for those who desire to apply corporate management techniques to direct senior Vaisnavas
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
wretched and fallen Brajanath dasa
DBH: The Last Guru
Once while preparing for an initiation I was sitting with the Dalai Lama and he shocked me by saying, “I am the last Dalai Lama.” I didn’t understand then, but now after being a guru for the better part of a decade, I know exactly what he means: The guru as a means of spiritual transmission is finished.
COMMENTATOR : Krishna says His message is transmitted by His guru representatives, whether by His direct representatives (shaksat means direct) aka divinely empowered pure devotee diksha gurus, or by us — Krishna’s (and His pure devotee’s) “student representatives,” the “preachers” of such gurus — ok we are the peons, “sweepers on the street,” aka siksha gurus. If there are not going to be any more people preaching His message, as either direct shaksat hari gurus, or by His student preachers and agents, how will Krishna’s message be transmitted? This sounds a little like sour grapes, DBH tried to become a big guru, he was exposed in major deviations, so now “the idea of guru is finished.” No, the idea that DBH is a guru is finished.]
DBH: When I realized this I resigned from being guru.
COMMENTATOR : Wow, this is corporate guru-ism on steroids. Gurus are appointed — like a corporate director, and they are voted in, they are suspended for deviations, they are now “resigning” from the post of messiah, this is all mundane speculation affixed to the guru. The guru is an eternal position, its not that one day you are voted as God’s spokesman, then you are suspended from that post the next day, then you resign from that post the next day, this is all material.]
DBH: Coincidentally, all my disciples resigned from being disciples. It was not a friendly parting; now they hate me because my resignation spoiled their chances of becoming recognized as guru.
COMMENTATOR : So everyone who followed DBH just wanted to be his guru successor? Criminals think everyone else is a criminal. Maybe some of them wanted to be more Krishna conscious, and they were cheated. How does DBH know they all wanted to be gurus?]
DBH: I other words, they were pretending to be my disciples as long as hanging around me gave them a decent shot at the Big Chair.
COMMENTATOR : So DBH is motivated to be guru, and so is everyone else.]
DBH: Ha! If they only knew; that grandiose seat with its arrogant decorations is upholstered in long-stemmed roses, and every time you sit down its thorns take their toll in blood. Being guru is the hardest job in the world, and very few are actually qualfied. But that’s not why I think the institution of guru is finished; it’s because there are no qualified disciples.
COMMENTATOR : So DBH failed as a guru, and the fault is not his, its his disciples? The disciples failed to see gay bondage sex as divine, so its all their fault he failed? Or isn’t it that he was exposed, and that is what caused the failure of his reign as messiah?]
DBH: After my experience as a guru I agree with the Dalai lama that the institution of guru is basically finished. No one today can withstand the pressure at the top of even a small spiritual organization. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”, and you will not find such power as a guru holds anywhere but perhaps in national politics.
COMMENTATOR : OK good progress, the post of guru corrupted DBH absolutely, as he admits herein. Right, so that is why we neophytes are ordered DO NOT ACCEPT THE POST OF GURU PREMATURELY.]
DBH: Anyone who wants to be a guru probably should not be, by default. I waited over 40 years before I stepped forward to ‘do the needful,’ and then only because I foolishly thought that somehow I could do it better. LOL! The same thing will happen no matter who is in the post, because the effect of the hierarchichal form itself breeds corruption when mixed with fallible human nature.
COMMENTATOR : OK good, if you have fallible human nature, i.e. you are a neophyte, then do not attempt the post of guru. OK, so who authorized DBH to be a guru? No one, he self appointed himself to the post. He has no one to blame for his failure except himself.]
DBH: We desperately need a new form of spiritual community organization that does not depend on the old patrilineal format; in fact we need that which is not linear at all, because the single point of failure of the hierarchy is too vulnerable.
COMMENTATOR : No, there are hundreds and thousands of successful “heirarchy organizations” that have big leaders like Bill Gates of Microsoft. In fact, big leaders like him are doing great projects to help the poor and many other important things all over the world. The reason they are doing great work is that they are not claiming to be the next messiah, they have good qualities such as humility, honesty, dignity, compassion and so on. Being a big leader is not the issue, its the issue that as soon as one thinks he is the spokesman for God, and he is not, this is a bogus cult and nothing more. This makes a person disqualified to lead a pack of monkeys, in sum one who thinks he is the next big messiah — when he is not on that platform, is described in the Vedas as “the most dangerous elements in human society.” So when one over-steps this warning, then he falls down like the GBC gurus and their DBH clones. ys pd]
yes brajanath prabhuji …. many things of this atricle are already happen, as i told one lady very new in K.C few days ago told me : “But how he could initiate me by phone with out even knowing me or what i do? it seems to me that he is eager to make a large number of disciples.” Thats what i heard from a new lady who was initiated here by phone by one of our news ‘gurus’. And more dificult is ;”What can we say in this time?” it would be a very expert decision if we say to all the name ‘freely’ of the well knowed’ reals Maha Bhagavatas who are still on this planet and can left at any moment due to old age and nara-lila. i also dont know about guru-tattva or any tattva but its just one logical and rational decision … dont need to be very inteligent to think like this ….
another sad point is that now the main issue is that “How many Gurus we have?” Who will be the next Acharya in our sanga?”
as prabhuji told, at the time of Gurudev did any one think like that of their own Guru Maharaj. Keshav Goswami?
i always heard that after Gurudev departs the disciples will feel more entusiastic to preach His glories and His teachings and never will think about to be guru or any thing more ….. before, we were always speaking how magnanimous is Gurudev and how powerfull He is and now? the main issue is ‘who will be a guru!” thats sad ……
at the time of Prabhupad sarasvati Thakur did any real disciple think like that? or they took heir Gurudev message and glories in heart and gave it to all with out even thinking about guru, initiations etc …..?
Is Gurudev happy with this?
i remember about my Siksha Guirudev Tirtha Goswami Maharaj, when His Gurudev left, B.Promode Puri Goswami maharaj came with a garland to put on hios neck, to say to all that he would be the Next Acharya. What was his atitude? He told “No!” I dont want this. Iam not qualified for this work. Iam a fallen soul.” Then after some one read a letter from Madhav Goswami (his Gurudev). that he sould acept the post of Acharya, still he didnt acept. Then Puri Goswami told him: “This is the order of your Gurudev that he have no one like you in Math, so you should follow his order, other wise you will commit apaaddha.” Then, only then he acept the post of Acharya.
This is quite diferent of what we see .. this is real Acharya. Acharya will never fight for ‘Who will be Guru?” Oh , i should be, he dnt should give initiation etc ….
thats my understanding …… and acting like that i feel more conected with our great Gurudev, who is the life of our hearts.
“So when one over-steps this warning, then he falls down like the GBC gurus and their DBH clones. ys pd]” pd??? Isn’t he a ritvik ?? Not only that, possible the most offensive person on the internet. Who openly criticizes our Guru and every goudiya Vaisnava. I think we should NOT be quoting him!
who is DBH? who is pd?
pd= pada das= an offensive ritvit. why are we quoting him?
“So when one over-steps this warning, then he falls down like the GBC gurus and their DBH clones. ys pd]” pd??? Isn’t he a ritvik ?? Not only that, possibly the most offensive person on the internet. Who openly criticizes our Guru and every goudiya Vaisnava. I think we should NOT be quoting him!
Dear Sriman Brajanatha prabhu. Dandavat pranams to you and all assembled vaisnavas.
This exchange seems to be going very well for the COMMENTATOR until he comes to the last statement which begins with No, there are hundreds and thousands of successful “hierarchy organizations”…………….
His praise of Bill Gates as some sort of hero figure is completely delusional as this is a person who is a promoter of eugenics (remember the Nazi’s) and is heavily involved with GM food production and exploitation of Third World countries.
He is a phony who is beying promoted by GM companies like Monsato to gain a foothold in countries like Africa and India to control the Worlds food supply. His “donations” (tax deductable of course) are are scam to “get in through the back door” and pay off corrupt politicians which is the business of foreign policy.
(Monsanto is owned by Rockerfeller another big follower and supporter of eugenics)
vaisnava dasanudas
sudarsana
Dear Mathuranatha prabhu,
please accept my pranams.
It may seem that Srila Gurudeva drastically changed his teachings on Guru-tattva (supposedly « the diksa-guru can only be an uttama-adhikari »), and that he has now authorized any sannyasi to initiate his own disciples whatever his level, but he has actually all along said that while an uttama-adhikari is undoubtedly the ideal guru, due to the rarity of such top level gurus, qualified madhyamas are acceptable, that they are very much needed, that a madhyama-uttama is the second best choice after an uttama, that if not available, then a madhyama-madhyama is acceptable, and he has even said in Gurudevatatma, made of 2003 lectures, that if a madhyama-madhyama is not available, then exceptionally even one on the level just prior to that can be accepted, so what is presented in the Guru Position Paper is not a deviation from his teachings.
On the other hand that, neither Gurudeva nor this position paper encourage low-level madhyamas nor kanisthas to initiate, even if they’re sannyasis. Gurudeva has said at the end «at least madhyama-madhyama», and this position paper quotes that. He has unambiguously stated the limitations of madhyama gurus, even if they’re qualified, while authorizing them to initiate even if they’re not top-level madhyamas, while repeatedly presenting the solution consisting in approaching higher siksa-gurus later to complete the diksa process begun by these madhyamas. This paper is just doing that.
He repeatedly expressed his desire that his qualified sannyasis would start initiating, and urged them to do so in spite of their reluctance.
Srila Gurudeva glorifies Srila Jiva Gosvami: ‘In his Bhakti-sandarbha, he explained many subtle aspects of bhakti. He delineated the sixty-four types of bhakti, and he expertly explained guru-tattva. He also described guru-padasraya, the process of taking exclusive shelter of the guru, how it should be done, what are its rules and regulations, and so on. If the guru carefully evaluates the prospective disciple and the disciple carefully considers the guru, then a circumstance will never arise where the disciple will have to abandon his guru. He taught that one should not accept a guru whimsically; one should accept a guru in whom he will never lose faith, otherwise there will be a problem. One should make sure that he only accepts a sad-guru, who is detached from sense enjoyment, who is conversant with all tattva and siddhanta, who is rasika, who is spiritually realized, and who is affectionate towards him. One should examine the guru carefully, even if this process takes as long as a year’
Hare Krishna,
Dandavats. All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gaurang.
As per the minutes of the Sannyasa Council meeting minutes, some basic rules were laid down regarding initiation – Hari nama should not be given till the person has given up meat eating and intoxication for 6 months. Its been only a month since this meeting but already the sannyasis are not following this basic requirement. One senior sannyasi has visited our sanga here in US (South) for the last 7-8 days and has given Hari nama without following this requirement. Moreover, the initations were done at 9 or 10 pm in the night after the program. I never saw Srila Gurudeva or for that matter any other Guru give initations at night time. Is there such a rush (greed) to make disciples, that the sannyasis are ready to overlook all basic principles? This does not bode well for our sanga and I strongly feel that its a great dishonor to Srila Gurudeva’s mission.
M Das
Dandavat pranam M das prabhu,
Ahh well- I can’t say that I am surprised. It has been expected that some devotees, for different reasons and circumstances will not follow these guidelines for initiation.
But before we jump to any conclusions, please remember that some sannyasis are giving out beads and even spiritual names to people without qualification as a means to get them to begin chanting. They are supposed to make it clear that this is not an initiation, but and introduction to chanting so that they may practice and become purified and eligible for initiation. This process has caused some confusion in recent months and this may be what was going on.
I don’t know who you are or who the devotee that is supposedly giving initiation is. If you want to report this so that we can speak with the devotee for clarification, you can contact me at my email address bvvaikhanas@gmail.com.
We will keep all this confidential so that you don’t have to worry about creating some discomfort between you and this sannyasi. It may be a misunderstanding. It may be something that requires clarification or correction. We will have to see.
We are going through some growing pains here and there will be differences that have to be sorted out and adjusted for. If you want to share this information privately, you may.
Simple, Srila Gurudev told all of His Sanyasi discilpes that they could give Diksha Mantras. I am sure that many will refrain from taking on disciples after careful and honest reflection upon their real spiritual status. Some will take on this task and I believe quite a number of them are duly qualified. Perhaps the most important personality in all this is Sri Krsnacandra Himself. We saw how quickly He sorted out who was qualified and who was not within ISKCON. It was just a matter of years before most of the 11 original gurus were either dead or disgraced. So I say proceed with Srila Gurudev’s proposed model, but proceed with that in mind. I don’t believe it is a job for everybody!
Some great points raised above and an excellent discussion paper from Swami BV Vaikhanas.
your servant
Pariksit das
Point 8
It is also clear from the instructions of Sri Guru and sastra that a devotee on the madhyama platform should actively seek the association and guidance of an uttama bhagavata devotee, both for himself and his disciples. Without that guidance, neither the guru nor the disciple will be able to advance to the highest stages of Bhakti.
18. However, only one who has heard mantras (such as the brahma-gayatri or the sannyasa mantra) from an authorized spiritual authority in disciplic succession may give that mantra
Dear Maharaja. Dandavat pranams,
by reading your nice paper with appreciation in my heart two questions have arisen
a)
just in case, that the now initiating gurus are themselves not uttama bhaktas, to whom they
are going to seek further instructions to obtain pure bhakti?
b)
from the above point 18. I´m asking how is it possible for a female diciple of Srila Grudeva
to give initiation to a male devotee, if she has not received the brahmagayatrimantra?
Seems to be not possible according to statement 18. isn´t it?
Thanks!
ys Narahari das
Dandavat pranam Narahari prabhu,
You asked two questions. My understanding follows each one.
a) “just in case, that the now initiating gurus are themselves not uttama bhaktas, to whom they are going to seek further instructions to obtain pure bhakti?”
That will depend on their faith and connection with a particular maha-bhagavat. At present there are a number of personalities that devotees are developing relationships with. This will obviously come out more in time. I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to speak about the devotees’ individual search. I am sure we will all be hearing about this in the coming months.
b) “from the above point 18. I´m asking how is it possible for a female diciple of Srila Grudeva to give initiation to a male devotee, if she has not received the brahmagayatrimantra? Seems to be not possible according to statement 18. isn´t it?”
One cannot give a mantra to others if they had not heard it from a bona fide source. When Mahaprabhu was preparing to hear the sannyasa mantra from Kesava Bharati, He first whispered the mantra in the ear of Kesava Bharati.
Some lady devotees that are disciples of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada have heard the brahma gayatri from him. Srila Gurudeva did not give it to his lady disciples because it may increase purusha bhava in the hearts of a neophyte or kanistha devotee who is in a lady’s body. However, if some lady is advanced in bhakti and has risen beyond the gross bodily conception and they are acting in the capacity of guru, they may request to hear that mantra from a qualified devotee, so that they may pass it on.
Dandavats Vaikhanas Maharaja and all Sannyasis ,Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis , thanks so much for raising and discussing these very important points in such an open way .
I do have a question about Diksha mantras . It is my understanding that the mantras are designed to awaken our pure Krishna Prema and give us darshana of Sri Gouranga Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha and Krishna . And though those mantras are available from books and internet etc we actually need to receive them from a self-realized soul who has mantra siddhi . ie they themselves have perfected the chanting of those mantras and having awakened love of God and are blessed with dharshan of Radha Krishna . So my question is what benefit can be achieved by chanting mantras given by someone who has not achieved full perfection ? Will the disciple have to wait until his Guru acheives perfection and then hear those mantras again ? In other words can Krishna Prema , the ultimate goal of life , be achieved with those mantras from a madyama Guru ?
If Krishna Prema can be achieved , then no problem . But if not , why not give all encouragement , affection and inspiration etc but explain that manta must be received from an uttama adikari maha-bhagavat to achieve perfection ?
Maharaja as you have pointed out :- “The role of the madhyama adhikara acting as guru is to point the way. They can inspire one with what they have, faith, nistha and and a awakened transcendental taste for the process of bhakti. And they can encourage us and show us who is the uttama maha-bhagavat that we must ultimately surrender to”. So if they can ” show us who is the uttama maha-bhagavat that we must ultimately surrender to” why not let the ” uttama maha-bhagavat ” give the mantras ? But if they them selves have no connection with a living ” uttama maha-bhagavat ” siksa Guru , then can their mantras and guidance actually deliver perfection ?
Some Achariyas [like Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada ] may have sanctioned themselves to be proceeded by gurus on the madhyama level or lower , and some achariyas may not have [ like Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja and Srila Gourgovinda Swami ] . And Sri Krishna Himself is allowing all sorts of processes [like Buddhism , Christianity , Islam Mayavada etc ] to be carried on . The question still is , though sanctioned by Sri Guru [ and allowed by Sri Krishna as ultimately everything is] is it Their preferred option ? Do They really prefer that madhyam Gurus give out partially effective diksha mantras when the very same recipients could receive initiation from an uttama maha-bhagavat ? Or is it simply a concession for those who have Guru abhiman and those who dont want or deserve real Guru?
So do we want the default option in our sanga or the advanced option? Could we have an unwritten cultural norm that no one will violate due to societal pressure ? Like once society’s expectations were so strong , and sanctions so heavy , that society was very moral . Once a man would only marry a woman if he was fully capable of supporting her and any children , and the consequences severely mortifying if he failed . Wouldnt it be best to have a strong and universally accepted moral and cultural code in our sanga erring on the strict side ? Like one should only become Guru if He can deliver His disciples from repeated birth and death ? One should only become Guru is he knows what Krishna wants ? If He can see the svarupa of the disciple and guide him in awakening his ekadasa bhavas and his nitya seva ?
Only a year or so ago we were all so convinced and so uncompromising that one should only accept a nitya -parakar of the Lord , a kinkari, playadasi of Sri Radhe and nothing less . And now?
Srila Gurudeva set the gold standard for Guru . Why change the standard? At the time of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakuras disappearance many said ” now the Thakura is gone there is no one” .And many thought when Srila Bhakitisiddanta Sarisvati Thakura departed the parampara had ended . And when Srila AC Bhaktivendanta Swami left many thought there was no one qualified and so they did the “needful” and initiated though unrealized . Will History repeat it self?
Ok so a madhyama may become Guru if ones living ” Uttama maha-bhagavat ” shiksa Guru forces them . Then daily coming to the Uttama maha-bhagavat with ones disciples for shiksa – very good . And a Madhyama can recognize who is Uttam . But if some one cannot recognize any living tattva darshi pure devotee Siksa Guru and gives initiation in the ” interim ” , because ” things must go on” that means by definition they are a kanista , because kanista adikari cannot accurately recognize kanista , madhyama , and uttama bhaktas .
..
So now we have Kanista Gurus who cannot recognize an Uttama maha-bhagavat to direct their disciples to ? Or cant/wont direct them due to considerations of the institutional integrity? Sound hauntingly familiar ?
Any way couldnt get anywhere near as bad as Iskcon was . There’s hardly any money and properties to fight over and the new sub- Uttama maha-bhagavat Gurus are quite nice humble persons and quite old as well . Just a bit of a disappointing step down to mediocrity after soaring so high with the Yuga Achariya .
Just the mad ramblings of a conditioned soul, please correct and chastise me as appropriate .
Radhe Radhe !! the retched mathuranatha das
Dandavat pranam Mathuranath prabhu,
I wanted to just share a few more thoughts with you in response to your last letter. Actually, this is probably more for others reading than for you. We have had many chats about this subject and you seem quite comfortable with your position on the matter.
I would never disagree with you that for those who want to obtain pure love for God (Krsna prema), there is an absolute necessity of association and siksa from a maha-bhagavata devotee. When I say siksa, I understand that relationship to be non-different from the relationship with a fully qualified diksa guru. In both cases, one’s natural inclination towards bhakti is awakened by the transcendental sound vibration emanating from the fully self realized devotee of Sri Krsna.
I do disagree with you that there is a problem with recognizing that madhyama devotees can be guru. This has been explained by Srila Gurudeva, Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srila BR Sridhara Gosvami and others. Having a guru on the madhyama platform does not change the fact that one will need to have association with a maha-bhagavata guru to achieve ultimate perfection. But the madhyama guru can give a significant start in ones development of bhakti and assist one in discovering and surrendering to a maha-bhagavat devotee.
You infer repeatedly in your own comments, that if our Society recognizes madhyama gurus, then we will somehow fail to accept the shelter and guidance of maha-bhagavatas. It is if one excludes the other. But this goes against the very definition of a madhyama devotee.
SB 11.2.46
isvare tad adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu ca
prema maître krpopeka yah karoti sa madhyamah
“A madhyama-bhägavata is one who has love for Isvara and His pure devotees, is friendly towards His bhaktas, shows mercy towards those who are ignorant of bhakti, and neglects those who are inimical to Isvara or His bhaktas.”
One in the madhyama platform has love for Sri Krsna and His pure devotees. He is friendly towards those on the same platform as himself and he shows mercy to the neophytes and innocent. How does he show mercy? By giving them good instruction and pointing the way to Sri Krsna and His pure devotees.
Srila Gurudeva gave instruction for his senior devotees to become qualified madhyama devotees and preach around the world. By their preaching, some will develop faith in that person and in the process of bhakti (harinama, etc.). They will request that person to give them harinama and diksa mantras to begin their devotional service. What is wrong with that? How can that be harmful?
When that person becomes ready for further advancement, Krsna Himself makes the arrangement.
SB 10.51.53
bhavapavargo bhramato yada bhavej
janasya tarhy acyuta sat-samagamah
sat-sangamo yarhi tadaiva sad gatau
paravarese tvayi jayate ratih
“He Acyuta! O Infallible one! The jiva has been wandering in the cycle of birth and death since time without beginning. When the time for his release from this samsära cycle approaches, he attains sat-sanga, the association of a sädhu. From that moment he becomes firmly attached to You, who are the controller of both spirit and matter and the supreme objective for the sädhus.”
How does one qualify for that association with a sad-guru? By gradual accumulation of bhakti sukrti. How many disciples of Srila Gurudeva first accepted an unqualified guru on the kanistha or lesser platform? But they came to him. Why? During that immature stage of their devotional life, they accumulated greater understanding of scripture and developed sufficient spiritual eligibility by chanting and performing other limbs of vaidhi bhakti. Conversely, I have seen so many people who had association with Srila Gurudeva who could not appreciate his position and would not or could not accept his guidance. It all depends on proper adhikara.
A qualified madhyam guru can certainly engage one properly on the path of bhakti and teach the new devotees many things favorable for their progress. This is not opposed to the principle of sad-guru. Rather it assists many conditioned souls who would not otherwise be qualified to come to that higher personality.
Srila Gurudeva’s instructions on guru-tattva include both situations. They are not exclusive of one another, but complimentary. I don’t see it like you do. You have said:
“So do we want the default option in our sanga or the advanced option? “
“Srila Gurudeva set the gold standard for Guru . Why change the standard?”
“… the new sub- Uttama maha-bhagavat Gurus are quite nice humble persons and quite old as well . Just a bit of a disappointing step down to mediocrity after soaring so high with the Yuga Achariya.”
I do not consider the madhyama devotee to be mediocre. I aspire for that position because from there we can chant suddha nama and gallop to bhava bhakti. Srila Gurudeva set the gold standard and he has also spoken in lectures over the years about the role of the madhyama guru. It is important to be able to reconcile both instructions. To accept that there may be madhyama gurus does not doom our Society to mediocrity. Nor does it mean that we have sold out our higher principles.
Our Society -such as it is- is quite accommodating. No one is going to beat down your door and kick you out of anything. What is there to kick anyone out of? Our Society is bound together by affection and mutual respect not buildings and bylaws. You are entitled to your opinion. After all, it is based on the highest ideals and is expressed out of deep nistha for Srila Gurudeva and our Guru-parampara. You are concerned about the continued purity of our preaching and practice. That is highly commendable.
I have a slightly different understanding, but share the same goals. So – fine. We watch each other’s backs and keep each other honest and free from aparadha. That is good enough for me. Thank you. I won’t be replying to any more of these letters for a while. It is a good time to watch and see how things proceed.
i agree with you Mathuranatha prabhuji, this question no one answer till today, If Maha Bhagavata , if only Him can give Prema, why not declare to all Who and Where he is now? As Prabhupad told earth can not survive with out realized soul, why not declare to all (as Paramadvaiti M. do) that Yes, there are a Maha Bhagavata …. if you want perfection go there at once … iam not atached for disciples or institution … i think its such a simple matter that some is trying to complicate … we need only to be non sectarian and give all responsability and worship to the Maha Bhagavatas present on the planet now .. it would prevent us to ruin for the future, to save the baddha jivas and to glorify the pure devotees of Lord.
agree with respected Vaikhanas Maharaj when he say that “Sridhar Maharaj told about madhyama gurus.” thats alritgh i think, because he have one foot in spiritual world and is trying to help jivas ….
one think important for me and may be for many .. is that Sridhar Maharaj also told that the madhyama should take care to not make many disciples and try to avoid guru abhimman .. if he gives initiation because Lord or Uttama Adhikaris gave order, thats very good, by Their Command etc … but when we see Gurus giving initiations very fast , for many not even looking if they are really following the 4 rules, people start to doubt .. its natural, here one lady devotee asked me if its normal to be iniciated by phone and her Guru never saw her or talked with her, thats what happen, now she have doubt …. how can we say thats normal? as on e prabhu told, with out following 6 months, initiations are giving to many persons, or with out following even 1 day …. i think all of us believe we have qualified devotees to give, but with these precipted atitudes is dificult to maintain these believes …. any way best not to judge now, as Sri Rupa Siddhanta Maharaj Told in article ” We will se who is who only some time after Acharya departure, only then we will see what they want from Acharyya.”
another good point made by prabhuji … we see that Bhakti promode Puri Goswami Maharaj, Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami Maharaj (Gurudev´s siksha guru and still on the planet 98 years), Bhakti Saram Trivikram Goswami Maharaj, KRsna Keshava Brahmachari, Bhakti Dayita Madhav Goswami Maharaj etc .. (all Bhaktissidhanta Prabhupad´s disciples) apointed Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj as a eternal associate of Nayana manjari , and if many of the present Gurus can not associate with and can not recognize it, its clear that we have many kanistha Gurus who can not even believe in the words of such realized souls as cited bellow … please , its clear just to me? only myself is thinking like this? may be iam a ass or dont know ….
agani Yeas Mathuranath prabhu …..
My Siksha Guru is so humble and old … when i asked his sanyassis why many can not recocnize Him as a such , the respected sanyassis told me . “Many can not understand his mood, he is always very humble.” But we see that some persons, as one from ukraine is living there with him and he is not a guru, or even madhyama, but with simple and humble mood he is there serving this great soul with full faith …. as u told … how a unqualified guru who is giving initiations can humble at the point to say to all, that ye, in another Math, there is a uttama who can deliver you from all miseries.
http://purebhakti.tv/podcast/?p=episode&name=2011-12-18_19961030_vrindavan_the_desire_to_make_disciples_will_go_away_and_mp3_lectures_and_books_not_enough_we_must_have_sadhu_sanga.mp3
Dandavat Pranam,
Although i did not get a reply via this forum, I did receive a call from a god-brother.
He felt that I did not fully express my message, and requested that I make it more clear.
What I intended to say is; although it is a sweet sentiment that our sannyasi’s feel they need to protect us, it should be remembered that we are all under the protection of Sri Guru and Krsna at all times.
To express that we would like to help all the devotees as far as we are able is a more appropriate use of words.
It can easily be construed that they are dependent on us (the sannyasi’s) for protection.
This may bring about some remembrances of what many experienced in ISKCON after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada.
I have heard many stories about how the devotee’s were made to feel that, without the help and blessings of the 11, advancement in the process would be difficult.
I feel that a healthy expression is, that just as I want to help them, let me not forget that many of them can help me.
In this way the mood of being elite will not arise.
Syamasundara dasa
Thanks and many pranams.
All of your comments and suggestions, thoughts are being received very well, and a thoughtful response will be posted shortly.
Thanks for your understanding and patience.
Jai Srila Gurudeva….
ys
Raghava (Admin)
agree with syamasundara prabhuji 100 per cent ……
and with ia prabhu 2, if the instruction is that madhyama adhikaris have to saty always on the protection of a Uttama and Uttama will always be here as it was told by Bhaktissidhanta Prabhupad, why not any name was told? as Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami and Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami? this is my curiosity …. no one answered that … only brajanath prabhuji told me “Thats because is dificult to acept the superiority of others’ iam not interesting in discussion of faith etc … but this words seems to me that we are going to be another sectarian , that we must take shelter only in ipbys .. and what i read in Gurudev book ‘My sikhsa guru and priya bandhu’ was “I think all maths are the same, i dont see any diference.” and when i say that yes, have Maha Bhagavata in the world now and forever, some say to me ‘Accha, but he is not preaching like Gurudev” I think Gour Govinda Maharaj would say : “Are baba, this preaching, that preacing, all are Maha Bhagavatas!”
Dandavat pranam Syamasundara prabhu,
This is my writing so I take responsibility for the choice of words. I can see how it might come off as an arrogant or even self-serving statement, to call oneself the “protector” of the devotees. That was certainly not my intention, although our hidden anarthas are often revealed in our choice of words. Goddess Sarasvati dances on our tongues to reveal our faults.
The mood I was trying to convey is that I feel an enormous debt to Srila Gurudeva for saving me and so many of my godbrothers and godsisters, as he was requested by Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Thus I have always felt that one way I could try to repay his gift (although that is not possible), is to serve his disciples and try to inspire and train them as he did for me. It may seem arrogant, but it is a duty that comes with sannyasa vesa- whether you are qualified or not. You must serve and protect to the best of your ability. That is all I meant.
And yes- there are so many devotees around the world that I greatly admire- young, old, men and women- who guide and inspire me by their own extraordinary example in bhakti. I see our Gurudeva in them and seek their blessings and protection.
The importance of Siksa
Dandavat Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Jai Sri Radhe
Dear All,
Please take into consideration Srila Gurudeva’s instructions on Diksa and Siksa.
When I study His words (below) I consider this question, who is that Uttama adhikari(s) that you (the new Guru) and I, will bring your disciples to, for pure sadhu sanga.
I have lived through this situation again and again since 1977, I have introduced new disciples to God brothers I trusted, by some unbelievably extraordinary mercy I have helped others meet Srila Gurudeva, now I am happy (and sad) to bring new disciples to my God brothers, sisters, cousins and uncles etc. again. As well, I am so honored to be able to encourage anyone to take shelter of our sanga and it’s vast ocean of Vaishnava sadhus.
Our Vaisnava world is one family.
Srila Gurudeva:
Sometimes the diksa-guru is superior to the siksa-guru, and sometimes the siksa-guru is so much superior to the diksa-guru.
Srila Swami Maharaja … I am his friend; I am his siksa-disciple. He is my siksa-guru. In another sense, I took sannyasa from my Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, earlier then he did. Your Prabhupada took sannyasa soon after me — five or six years after– and therefore we are god-brothers also. He is junior and I am senior in sannyasa order, but he is so much senior because he is the god-brother of my Gurudeva. He is my siksa-guru, and not less than my diksa-guru. Though we are friends, I honor him in this way.
your servant
Isa das
please excuse the typo’s.
Radhe Radhe,
As far as I can see this paper is very sound.
It is full of so many references, things that we have certainly heard from Srila Gurudeva, and Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhara Maharaja in the form of Sri Guru And His Grace.
One thing I noticed however, inspired me to share a point of view.
I have had the opportunity to be present at least once when Srila Gurudeva was deciding whom he would award sannyasa to.
After the decision was made, Srila Gurudeva instructed those chosen, that they should go to all the devotees to be their blessings, that they would be able to maintain their sannyasa in a nice way.
Seeing this I could only conclude that Srila Gurudeva does this to instill humility in his disciples and followers.
I certainly knew that I had no qualification to give any blessings to these personalities, those who are my seniors in all respects.
This being said I want to get to a comment that was made in the paper, I’m sure not maliciously.
“Our success as a Society will be determined by how effectively WE PROTECT and assist the many thousands of devotees,that Srila Gurudeva lovingly brought into the realm of bhakti.
While I can appreciate this sentiment, and having some affection for our God-Brothers also, I just think that it should not be forgotten that many out there can also offer protection to the sannyasi’s also.
I say this with the understanding that they have a monumental task now, and I also wish them well, and hope that they will be safe.
Please excuse any offense on my part, knowingly or unknowingly
All glories to their service,
Syamasundara dasa.
Srila Prabhupada
A gosvami must be free from all these vices before he can dare sit on the vyasasana. No one should be allowed to sit on the vyasasana who is not spotless in character.
SB 1.1.6 Questions by the Sages
The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress.
Madhya Lila 22.71
“The root cause of devotional service to Lord Krsna is association with advanced devotees. Even when one’s dormant love for Krsna awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.
Madhya Lila 22.83
Dandavat pranams to all
All glories to Srila Gurudeva and Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu!
I want to know the relationship between the BTI,Gaudiya Vedanta samiti trust and the IPBYS.
How will the IPBYS be managed and these trusts what will be the difference or all these trusts
will now fall under the IPBYS?
My second question Sriman Brajanath prabhu wrote once that Srila Gurudeva said that only
5 Vaishnava`s have understood His heart Sripad Vana Maharaja,Sripad Thirtha Maharaja,Sripad
Madhava Maharaja,Sripad Sridhara Maharaja and Sripad Premananda prabhu.In the initial
proposed structure of IPBYS these 5 were to be in the inner chamber will this be as it was desired
by Srila Gurudeva?
These resolutions that have been decided by the sanyassa council is it cast in stone,why are the general devotees in the world mot having a say in this matter as this will directly affect the congregation when it comes to recommending and dealing with different problems.
Also the sanyassis that were problematic or had ? behaviour has the sanyassa council adreesed these issues?
Srila Gurudeva said that we should speak our mind so i`m doing that,all these resolutions have they been decided on or are waiting for input from the devotees whi not part of these meetings?
ys
Acyuta dasa
Dandavat pranam Acyuta prabhu,
The International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society is the name for our entire sanga. As a Society, it has shared values, vision and a collective mission. The Gaudiya Vedanta Samithi Trust and others like it are legal entities formed by local devotees. These trusts are legal entities formed to facilitate service. They may own property and receive and manage funds. These trusts and other seva teams are managed on the local level and may take advice and assistance from the members of the Society on a voluntary basis. The sannyasis and the BTI (Bhakti Trust International) do not control or manage these trusts. There may be sannyasis or BTI members on some of these trusts. But the trusts are managed by their own boards. Generally the aims and values of the trusts are exactly the same as the IPBYS. However all trusts in different parts of the world are independently operated and may reflect the local flavor and native culture of the devotees in their attempts to practice and spread Mahaprabu’s mission.
Your second question actually has two parts that while connected are different issues.
One is that Sriman Brajanath Prabhu said that Srila Gurudeva told him that there were only five devotees that understood his heart. The second is how the society should be organized.
On the first point, we all acknowledge the long service and deep guru-nishtha of these five devotees. Srila Gurudeva (and Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja) have said that vishrambha-guru seva (intimate service) is the way to achieve pure bhakti. May we be inspired and follow their example.
I am not qualified to comment on Sriman Brajanath prabhu’s realization of how the Society should be run. All I know is that Srila Gurudeva’s last published instructions about how he wanted this to take place. He said that decisions should be made by the sannyasis, the BTI and by eminent household preachers and math commanders. In other worlds, he wanted a collaborative effort by senior devotees actively involved in service and the preaching mission. He also placed a heavy burden on the sannyasis, saying that they are “the main factor.”
Then you ask if the “resolutions that have been decided by the sanyassa council is it cast in stone,why are the general devotees in the world mot having a say in this matter as this will directly affect the congregation when it comes to recommending and dealing with different problems?”
I don’t think that we are proceeding with the view that everything said here is cast in stone. There are two kinds of considerations here. One is the underlying spiritual principles. These are universally recognized and serve as the compass by which we seek our direction and purpose. The second consideration is the actual application of these principles in regard to our Society. These second are often influenced by time, place and circumstance and are more malleable. They are also dependent on the voices of the devotees around the world for our sanga to be successful. Let’s face it- if you don’t like the plan, then you don’t have to participate. We are a voluntary group. It seems like we have the best chance for success if more devotees are involved and have an opportunity to contribute and voice their ideas.
Srila Gurudeva always encouraged local initiative and creativity by his disciples. Sannyasis, BTI members and other senior devotees are a resource for advice and other assistance. However, success on the local level depends on individual inspiration and initiative. So, prabhu, speak your mind, find your own inspiration and genius and serve your beloved Gurudeva.
Then you ask if the issue of improper behaviour among sannyasis is being dealt with.
Yes, these issues are being addressed and we are trying to figure out ways to help any sannyasi that has had problems, as well as help and protect devotees that may have been negatively impacted by these problems. Input from devotees is always helpful and welcome on these issues.
Srila Gurudeva said that we should speak our mind so i`m doing that,all these resolutions have they been decided on or are waiting for input from the devotees whi not part of these meetings?
As you may have noticed, the resolutions were quite modest in their scope. We are feeling our way forward here carefully. Yes- we do depend on input from our international community.
dandavats pranams respected devotees, all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji
since my name comes up in the comments I thought I may add some spice to the matter that is presented
yes, it is true that Srila Gurudeva commented some time around 2005 how happy and confident he is, knowing that his 5 stalwart followers – Pujyapada Premananda prabhu, Pujyapada BV Tirtha Maharaj, Pujyapada BV Madhava Maharaja, Pujyapada BV Vana Maharaja and Pujyapada BV Sridhara Maharaja – are understanding his heart so well and will certainly continue his mission in the future
Srila Gurudeva said at that time that these devotees are his very powerful horses and will bring his message all around the world; that said I have no doubts that Srila Gurudeva instilled the same inspiration in the heart of all his followers; to the amount that we apply our sincerity and dedication to realize the heart of our Gurudeva, we will be able to assist and make his mission successful
IPBYS is the Society of devotees that follow and imbibe the teachings, as well as the example of our previous Acaryas; the mission of Srila Gurudeva is the exact same mission of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the exact same mission as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada and the fulfillment of the innermost desire of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur for uniting all Vaisnavas under the banner of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s Pure Sankirtan Movement
I wish to mention that the topic of initiation is just a small ingredient, although very important no doubt, of the success formula of Srila Gurudeva’s mission; in my personal opinion too much discussion about this topic may lead us astray from the day to day reality that we face
Srila Gurudeva himself expressed concern and displeasure when he came to know that certain sannyasis were discussing the matter of who will give initiation in the future; he mentioned at that time that he himself never brought up this matter during the manifest pastimes of his own Gurumaharaja, nityalila pravista om vishnupada Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja
if we are really followers of our Gurudeva then our main meditation will be how we can please him, isn’t it? Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada have given specific formulas which will guarantee the success of their mission; in these formulas there is little or no mention about the importance of initiation; in other words, they have not emphasized that when the sannyasis will start giving initiation then the mission will flourish and be successful; rather they have warned to be very careful about this for it will easily create chaos in the mission – most of us have personal experience and can attest that aspiring gurus running after disciples, money and followers is one of the most disastrous and traumatic experiences for all parties involved
what will definitely increase the happiness of our beloved Gurudeva? it is recommended to study and follow the example of our illustrious spiritual masters; how did they adjust with the responsibility of giving initiation in the mission of their spiritual masters? did they take this matter lightly and did they start at once after their spiritual master entered nityalila?
I am not saying that new devotees do not deserve spiritual nourishment and that sannyasis and preachers should not engage their talents to provide this; what I want to share with you is that if we apply the success formulas presented by or Gurudeva and by Srila Prabhupada, then automatically healthy, harmonious spiritual nourishment will be available for all devotees in the mission; this will bring tremendous happiness to Srila Gurudeva, to Srila Prabhupada and to our Rupanuga Guruvarga
my sincere request is that we focus upon implementing these success formulas so that we may become instrumental in firmly establishing the ideal International Society for Pure Bhakti that our most beloved Gurudeva envisioned; our endeavors towards this will be an small payment towards the ever increasing spiritual debt that we owe him
I look forward to feedback and if some of you are interested, I will be happy to share the success formulas with you
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa – wretched and fallen
Dandavats Brajanath Prabhu ,- yes please share the success formulas
Radhe Radhe !!
Brajanatha Prabhu Kee! Jay!
● For harinama initiation, the minimum requirement is that the candidate has given up meat-eating and intoxication for the six month period and agrees to follow the regulative principles of Bhakti.
● For diksa initiation, the devotee should have been chanting 16 rounds for a period of 6 months and following all the regulative principles for that time.
Srila Gurudeva gave various recommendations regarding the chanting of japa to various devotees at various times, places and circumstances.
(please correct me if I am wrong) :
To the best of my knowledge, when initiating devotees Srila Gurudeva did not make his disciples vow rigid rules or numbers of rounds as may be custom in certain other Gaudiya sangas.
He rather seemed to follow Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada’s guideline – recommending and encouraging people to chant, not making them vow to chant.
My personal appreciation of this traditional Gaudiya Math practice is that there is room for everybody to go in his/her own pace.
Many persons are very dedicated Vaishnavas at heart, but social status or other factors may not allow them to chant many rounds.
Nevertheless Krishna is the center of their lives, and Sarasvati Prabhupada’s standard does not deny these sincere people to be initiated.
Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja spoke as follows about Prabhupada Sarasvati’s way of initiating:
“Student: How many rounds did your guru Maharaja ask his initiated disciples to chant each day? Did he prescribe any set number?
Sridhar Maharaja: His general recommendation was to chant twenty-five thousand names, sixteen rounds, daily, or at least four rounds minimum. When someone had no work, he could chant one hundred thousand names, or sixty-four rounds.
Student: Would Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur give harinam initiation to someone who could only chant four rounds daily?
Sridhar Maharaja: There was no such consideration. Formally, one had to do some counting, but there was no rigid limitation. What he wanted from us was intense engagement in the service of the Lord, under the guidance of a Vaishnava, because the all-important point is service. Our attainment of the goal is not insured simply by increasing the number of times we repeat the name; only by increasing the quality will we reach success.
There are so many sayings in the scriptures to encourage our realization of the holy name in different ways, but Srila Rupa Goswami has given us a central thought. He quotes the Padma Purana: atah sri Krishna namadi na bhavad grahyam indriyah. Our senses, physical or mental, are ineligible to come in touch with the transcendental. The name is non material (aprakrita), without mundane limitation (vaikuntha). It belongs to another plane. So, nothing about Krishna – His name, form, qualities, or pastimes – can be touched by our physical or mental senses. But when we have a serving attitude, He comes down to us of His own accord. Only then can our tongue really pronounce the name of Krishna. Otherwise, only the physical sound of the letters of the name can be produced.
Our tongue, our hands, physical sound, all these mundane things cannot come in touch with Krishna. Some intervening medium is necessary to connect this body with the supra-mundane. And that connection is our earnest desire to serve Krishna, to satisfy Him. A bulb won’t light if there is no electricity. Only when the electrical current is there will the bulb be illuminated. So, the name may appear on the tongue and in the ear, in the mind, or in writing, but we must have the connection from Vaikuntha to this mundane world. And that connection is devotional service, a functional serving attitude. That alone can connect the physical realm with Vaikuntha and Vrindavan.”
- from “The Search for Sri Krsna Reality the Beautiful” (chapter “Service of the Holy Name”)
by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja
Dandavat pranam Sri Radha Vallabha prabhu,
Others have brought up the same point that you have Sri Radha Vallabha prabhu. They cite how Srila Gurudeva was very lenient towards them when giving intiation. No one will argue with you on that.
However, Srila Gurudeva did have a standard for receiving hari-nama and diksa. This had been instructed to the sannyasis as a group at different times. We also spoke at great length about this with the devotees who were with Srila Gurudeva for many years, especially Sripad Madhava Maharaja who attended thousands of initiations. The standards we recommended are those given by Srila Gurudeva.
However, Srila Gurudeva often disregarded those guidelines. He is an eternally liberated associate of Srimati Radharani and is not subject to any reactions or sins from his disciples. Less advanced devotees on the madhyama platform are always advised to be careful about accepting only qualified disciples, and not too many either. Thus we have some rules that we believe are based on tradition and that will help our gurus and their disciples succeed in their seva.
Other acaryas such as Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada created a fairly strict standard which is the model which has been practiced within ISKCON since the 1960′s. Following these standards has been very helpful for new disciples and for gurus that are less than maha-bhagavatas.
You may read the translation and purports of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya Lila, 15.108 in this regard. It explains how the prospective disciple benefits by a preliminary period of purifying practice prior to initiation.
One last point, many devotees have commented that they are uncomfortable when new persons come and receive initiation quickly without having developed any understanding of bhakti, nor having had a chance to know their guru and develop proper faith. A period of sincere practice prior to initiation helps for both of these things.
Dear Sripada Vaikhanas Maharaja,
dandavat-pranams!
Thank you very much for giving a personal reply to my post.
daso’smi,
Sri Radha Vallabha.
Pujyapad Vaikhanas Maharaj,
please accept my respectful pranam. Sri Sri Guru-Gaurangau jayatah.
What does it mean that certain principles were agreed upon by the sannyasi council and/or BTI , for example waiting 6 months before giving initiation to a prospective disciple? Initiating sannyasis are not universally following this standard despite agreement reported here. It was also “agreed” that no one would initiate before the council could meet at Gaura-purnima last, but several did begin before that. Did they really agree or not? Do the conceptions represented in these papers genuinely reflect a unanimous vision among the sannyasis and leading figures in our society, or not?
I do not mean to imply here any opinion of right or wrong regarding initiations. I want to know what is the validity of these official agreements and subsequent postings. I am inquiring sincerely Maharaj, with respect for you as a thinking person and earnest servant of our Srila Gurudeva’s mission and family.
Dasanudas
Tamalkrsna br.
Dandavat pranam Tamal Krsna prabhu,
Well- this is an interesting question. When we had our meeting and agreed on this rule of waiting for six months, everyone seemed quite amenable to the idea. Will everyone follow this? Umm- probably not. But there may be different reasons. In some cases, the guru may feel strongly that a certain person is genuinely qualified and would benefit more by taking initiation right then, rather than waiting for the next time that guru sees the disciple. That could be a long time in some cases.
But in general, the rule was agreed on because everyone recognized that it was good for both the guru and the disciple to have a period of mutual examination. The disciple needs to develop proper faith by acquiring some knowledge of siddhanta and guru-tattva. The guru has to be sure that the disciple is sincere and will follow the principles of bhakti. Otherwise it can create a burden for the guru- especially since we are speaking of those that are on the madhyama platform, not uttama bhagavats.
The pattern I saw in Iskcon and among my other godbrothers that took of the role of guru is that they were very liberal and enthusiastic to give initiation at first. Over time they became more strict and examined their prospective disciples more carefully. They also became more inclined to accept input from experienced devotees who know that prospective disciple.
Undoubtedly there will be some growing pains here, as everyone becomes adjusted to their new roles. Let us not be so quick to judge if some don’t follow exactly all of our recommendations. We are making these recommendations as we gain experience and learn more about the challenges that face us. Therefore we wish to proceed slowly and carefully in all regards.
Hare Krishna, Jaya Srila Gurudeva, Jaya Srila Prabhupada
dandavat pranamas to vaishnavas of past, present and future
Thanks so much to authors of the paper. Very nice paper, short and with harmonious spirit. I had an impression that Srila Gurudeva liked short presentations.
The paper has many good merits, it is well balanced. Free personal decisions, self responsibilty, study of tattva and free flow of personal bhakti are encouraged in it.
One point which raised a question to me was this:
“Srila Gurudeva categorically rejected the idea that anyone could initiate on his behalf during his lifetime or after his disappearance.”
But it seems during his lifetime there were some initiations through phone, and also a representative of Srila Gurudeva would give then japa beeds and explain the mantra? I am raising this only as a minor point of exact detail. I am aware that ritvikism is false idea.
And one comment about the point discussed here in comment area:
“9. Can one give diksa initiation to one who has received harinama from a different person? “This is not proper etiquette.”
I guess, if someone of caliber of Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada will again shine in community of vaishnavas, then that worshipable personality will sometimes not consider this rule, and no one will get offended.
Forgive me if I said something wrong of with improper mood. Dandavat pranams. Hare Krishna.
Dandavat pranama Patita-jivana prabhu,
You are correct Patita Jiva prabhu when you say that there were many initiations by phone and representatives would often given beads and explain mantras on Srila Gurudeva’s behalf when he was not present before the disciple.
What I was referring to was that Srila Gurudeva rejected that idea of “rtivik” initiation, whereby another person would perform all of the functions of guru, including approval, giving of mantras, name etc, without prior or later contact with Srila Gurudeva. Srila Gurudeva said that “only one who is on my same level may act on my behalf…” So even though devotees would perform some of the functions for Srila Gurudeva if he were not present, it was always under his direction and with his permission. If someone received mantras from someone else under Srila Gurudeva’s order, It was always recommended that at some time the disciples should try to hear the mantras directly from Srila Gurudeva, either in India or at some other festival. If this was not possible, sometimes phone contact was arranged.
Your second question about whether a maha-bhagavat can be subjected to an institutional rule was also addressed in an answer to Mathuranatha prabhu’s letter.
Dandavat Pranam dear Vaikhanas Maharaj!
Tks for the papper and the contents of the article, are really useful.
I would like to know if its posible to provide a list of all the current initiating sannyasis or preachers in our sanga, also another list of all the sannyasis & preachers of Srila Gurudeva, we know that there are more than the ones on the teachers list on purebhakti.com; and also I would like to know if there are any preachers of the past who are banned today from our sanga, just in order to have the picture clear
.
It´s mentioned that the new guru´s must have the blessings of all sannyasis, the actual intiating gurus have this??? which don´t??
Another point, is that we all know that there are some very very qualified personalities in our sanga that don´t want to give initiation (this for the case of Srimati Syamarani didi, Srimati Uma didi, and Sri Premananda Prabhuji, just to name a few), can we adress them as siksa gurus? In this sence we can add their pics on altars of Srila Gurudeva´s maths?, .
My last question is if its correct to put the pics of the new gurus in Srila Gurudeva´s temples?, and if the new disciples and followers can do gurupuja to the new guru based on normal standards on Srila Gurudeva´s maths and preaching centers?
Sorry if I commit any offence with my questions and I would completly understand if I got my answers privately, I can provide my email on facebook
yours
Hari Rasa das
Dandavat pranam Hari-rasa prabhu,
As far as I know, these are the sannyasis that have taken on the role of guru within our sanga. Sripad BV Tirtha Maharaja, Sripad BV Vana Maharaja, Sripad BV Madhava Maharaja, Sripad BV Sridhara Maharaja, Sripad BV Siddhanti Maharaja, Sripad BV Madhusudana Maharaja, Sripad BV Muni Maharaja, Sripad BV Nemi Maharaja, Sripad BV Damodara Maharaja, Sripad BV Padmanabha Maharaja. Forgive me if I have left anyone out.
I know of no individual that has been banned from the sanga, although some devotees seem to have largely broken off relationships by not communicating and by working separately. I don’t think it is appropriate for me to speak about anyone at this time because there may be misunderstandings that will be worked out with time.
I have been told by devotees that were present that Radha Kanti didi has been giving hari-nama initiations in Finland and China and she has said that she is doing this under the instruction of Srila Gurudeva. There is some confusion as to whether she was acting on her own or whether she was giving initiation “on behalf of” Srila Gurudeva or Premananda prabhu. Premananda prabhu has rejected the idea that he has accepted any disciples and we cannot give ‘rtvik’ initiation for Srila Gurudeva, so this needs to be cleared up.
Thus far she has not discussed this with the sannyasi group, although I understand that she has had discussions with individual sannyasis. As she has not been in contact, I cannot speak for her and would not presume to do so. I am sure that Radha Kanti didi will speak for herself on this for everyone’s benefit.
I have only heard rumors that a few others are also initiating. Since it is only rumor, I cannot say anything more at this time.
You also asked about accepting Srimati Syamarani didi, Srimati Uma didi, and Sri Premananda Prabhuji as siksa gurus and if youcan add their pics on altars of Srila Gurudeva´s maths?, .
If you have faith in these individuals as your siksa gurus, then it is appropriate that you pose these questions to them.
Then you ask “if its correct to put the pics of the new gurus in Srila Gurudeva´s temples?, and if the new disciples and followers can do gurupuja to the new guru based on normal standards on Srila Gurudeva´s maths and preaching centers?”
Generally we do not add pictures on the altars of Srila Gurudeva’s maths except those pictures that were present while he was manifest among us. The practice is for a pujari with another guru to take a picture of their guru with them into the altar room when they are doing puja.
In our maths that perform guru-puja, it is done for Srila Gurudeva, the founder of our International Society. When that guru-puja is being performed, a disciple may think that they are also performing the puja for their own guru as well.
I am a diksa disciple of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a siksa/sannyasa disciple of Srila Gurudeva. In our math in Bangalore, we perform guru-puja every day before a large picture of Srila Gurudeva. At that time, while honoring Srila Gurudeva, I easily and happily remember and honor Srila Prabhupada.
In one’s home, one must certainly have a picture of their own diksa guru on their altar, along with a picture of their param-gurudeva, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja.
thks so much for your answer dear Maharaja
I FEEL VERY DISAPPOINTED AND PAINED IN MY HEART . THAT MY BELOVED SRI SRIMAD GOUR GOVINDA SWAMI WAS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE IN THIS PAPER
SRILA GOUR GOVINDA SWAMI SPOKE ELABORATELY LIKE A VAST OCEAN AND ERUPTING VOLCANO, THIS SUBJECT MATTER OF GURU-TATTVA . THOSE THAT WERE FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HEAR THOSE CLASSES WOULD SURELY AGREE TO THE VAST INFORMATION HE GAVE TO ONE AND ALL, ON THE SUBJECT OF GURU TATTVA .\
AND ONE BOOK CALLED “SRI GURU VANDANA” ( a book on guru tattva) WHY THE COMMITTEE DID NOT READ THIS BOOK “SRI GURU VANDANA” AND MENTION IT, IN THEIR PAPER ,? SO MANY DISCIPLES OF SRILA GOUR GOVIND SWAMI HAVE TAKEN SIKSA FROM SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN MAHARAJA . AND ARE ALSO PART OF THE PURE BHAKTI SOCIETY.
HARI BOL ALL GLORIES TO SRI GURU AND SRI GOURANGER
BROTHER JAGADISH PANDIT DAS
Dandavats Jagadish Prabhu , I have never seen you raise your voice or become visibly angry in twenty odd years , and i know that you always type in capital letters . just one thing , generally people only use uppercase on line when they are really angry and want to yell . just mentioning for those that dont know you .
And sorry you feel pained at heart . occasionally I find it possible to choose how I feel about a given situation . like you could feel really happy they have quoted Srila Sridhar Maharaja and that as yet do not seem to be seriously deviating from GuruTattva or banned and excommunicated for devotees going to see senior Vaisnavas outside of Srila Gurudevas Sanga . look on the bright side things could be much worse .
Radhe Radhe !!
DEAR MATHURANATH PRABHUJI MY EYESIGHT IS NOT SO GREAT, WHEN TO PUT BIG LETTER OR SMALL LETTER ,FOR ME EASIER TO USE ALL BIG LETTERS AND ALL THE LETTERS I WRITE TO ANYBODY ARE IN CAPITAL LETTERS
OUR SRILA GOUR GOVINDA SWAMI HAS CONTRIBUTED A VAST AMOUNT OF INSIGHT ON GURU TATTVA . WHY ARE THE MEMBERS ON THE COMMITTEE NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF WHAT WEALTH HE HAS LEFT BEHIND AND NOT GIVING HONOUR TO SRILA GOUR GOVINDA SWAMI. THAT WAS MY POINT
dear jagadish pandit dandavat pranams
as far as i know (may be iam wrong) Suddhadvaiti maharaj worte a guru-paper that i think have contributed so much for the comitee, in this paper he quote Gour Govinda maharaj many times, i have this paper …. i see that many came from Gour Govinda Maharaj school and that the members of our sanga have much respect to him … even Gurudev observed his avir and tirobhav day every year with honor …. but agree with you, His constribution is endless and should be included in every sanga.. Glories to Gour Govinda Maharaj!!!!
Please accept my humble obeisances:
Dear Good Sir, JAGADISHA PANDIT DAS
Prabhu where could I read the SRI GURU VANDANA the work of Srila Gour Govinda Swami? Is it possible to read it? and is it translated to English Language?
thank you very much.
Dandavat pranam Jagadish Pandit prabhu,
Yes, Jagadish Pandit Prabhu, you have a right to be upset. The fault here lies with me because I wrote the paper. I left Iskcon prior to the ascendance of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja and was never acquainted with him. Thus I have read only a few of his books and am not familiar with “Sri Guru Vandana.”
We do have sannyasis and senior devotees that are both diksa and siksa disciples of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. But, they were not involved in writing the paper. What happened is that I wrote the papers and then sent them out for review. After receiving some input I would make revisions and then send the papers out again.
I think the other devotees were very absorbed in their regular seva and trusted that I would do the right thing. Unfortunately your Gurudeva’s book was not mentioned. I will ask them specifically about this point and seek their recommendation. We can easily include this book in our suggested reading list. I apologize for the oversight and neglect towards your beloved Guru, who did so much for the mission of Mahaprabhu and who continues to give shelter and guidance to so many of our brothers and sisters.
DANDAVAT PRANAMS VAIKHANAS SWAMI
I WAS HAPPY TO RECEIVE YOUR VERY HUMBLE REPPLY THANK YOU MAHARAJA.
FROM THE CLASSES BY SRILA GOUR GOVIND SWAMI, I HAD HEARD THAT SRI GURU IS EITHER ASKED BY LORD KRSNA TO COME TO THE MATERIAL WORLD, OR THE GURU COMES HERE FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD BECAUSE HIS HEART BLEEDS SEEING THE CONDITION OF THE FALLEN AND SUFFERING CONDITIONED SOULS . WE WERE TAUGHT THAT THE GURU IS FROM THAT WORLD THE SPIRITUAL WORLD .
ONE TIME I ASKED “” GURUDEVA IF I BECOME PURE HEARTED , CAN I BECOME A GURU ” SRILA GOUR GOVIND SWAMI REPPLIED , ” YOU HAVE TO GO TO THE SPIRITUAL WORLD THEN COME BACK, THEN YOU CAN BE GURU ”
I HAD ONCE HEARD FROM A VERY OLD VAISNAVE THAT THE GREATEST BETRAYAL IS TO TELL A SOUL THAT YOU CAN DELIVER HIM, BUT ACTUALLY YOU CAN NOT .
SO IF A PERSON IS NOT FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD OR HAS NOT ATTAINED PURE LOVE OF GOD, HAS NOT CHANTED THE PURE NAME AND IS NOT ALWAYS SEEING THE BEAUTIFUL FORM OF LORD KRSNA IN HIS HEART AND OUTSIDE HIS HEART. AND CAN NOT DELIVER HIS DISCIPLE FROM THE DREADFUL OCEAN OF BIRTH AND DEATH .
THEN WHY WILL HE TAKE UP THAT POSITION OF GURU ?
I HAD HEARD ONCE AT GOURAPURNIMA IN NAVADWIPA SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA IN A VERY LOUD VOICE SAY THAT ” DONT THINK THERE ARE SO MANY GURU,S, THERE ARE ONE OR TWO . DONT THINK THERE ARE SO MANY” ”
SIMILAR THING SRILA GOUR GOVIND SWAMI TOLD ” DONT THINK THAT THERE ARE SO MANY GURU.S, THEY ARE LIKE THE SUN AND MOON ONE OR TWO .
WE HAVE ALWAYS HEARD THE VERY HIGH POSITION OF SRI GURU, HOW HIS REAL FORM IS LIKE A SMALL GIRL MANJARIE, HOW HE IS EXPANSION OF PARAMATMA
AND THAT THEY ARE VERY RARE AND THAT LIKE THE SUN RISES, THE SELF EFFULGENT ACHARYA WILL ALSO COME FORTH LIKE THE SUN FOR ALL TO SEE .
SO YOU MAY GET THAT BOOK FROM RAGAHAVA PANDIT PRABHU HE WAS THE ONE THAT PUBLISHED “SRI GURU VANDANA ”
DANDAVATS MAHARAJ
BEST REGARDS
HARI BOL BROTHER JAGADISH PANDIT DAS
Dandavat pranam Jagadish Pandit Prabhu,
It is true that only a maha-bhagavat devotee can deliver us from the prison of the material world and place us in the spiritual world.
So the question remains- why are there statements and provisions for those not on that platform to take on the role of guru? Why did Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada and others speak of gurus on the madhyama level? Do they have a role? Can they help us? Or are they all cheaters?
The role of the madhyama adhikara acting as guru is to point the way. They can inspire one with what they have, faith, nistha and and a awakened transcendental taste for the process of bhakti. And they can encourage us and show us who is the uttama maha-bhagavat that we must ultimately surrender to.
So according to the eligibility of the jiva and Mahaprabhu’s plan for the world, sometimes a lesser devotee may act in the role as guru. But they should not cheat their disciples. And a true madhyama who has advanced into ruci and asakti has cleared almost all anarthas. Of course, the last obstacle of pratistha may still be there, as Ragunath dasa warns.
Thus the madhyama must also have the association and guidance of an uttama bhagavata devotee. Otherwise they cannot reach the highest destination either.
It is always encouraging to hear from devotees who maintain great nistha for their guru. Thank you for your input and concern for the spiritual welfare of the devotees.
Dandavats Isa Prabhu and all Sannyasis ,Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis , good point , with which I feel most would agree .
It does lead to another point raised in the paper though :- ” 9. Can one give diksa initiation to one who has received harinama from a different person? “This is not proper etiquette. If for some reason, a prospective disciple desires to take initiation from another, this should be discussed with the harinama guru first. The disciple or prospective diksa guru should receive permission and blessings for this.”
It seems a very similar point . The new rules or guidelines seem to be saying that what Srila Gurudeva Himself has done is “not proper etiquette” . Srila Gurudeva has given Diksha mantras to persons who have previously taken Harinama initiation from others without their “permission or blessings”. If a devotee who realizes that the goal of life , Krishna Prema ,cannot be achieved under the insufficient guidance of their Harinama Guru why prevent them from taking diksa mantras from one who has full mantra siddhi and can guarantee perfection ?
Enshrining the veto powers of the Harimama Guru in our Societies rules could arguably be used in the same way that many “gurus” stopped their followers from taking Srila Gurudevas shelter .
Otherwise a good paper . It just reminds me of Iskcons policy of not allowing those with initiation in Iskcon to take Diksa [or shiksa] from Srila Gurudeva . Fortunately for many Srila Gurudeva followed a higher principal .
Radhe Radhe !!
dandavats mathuranatha prabhu
very good point, its sounds very strange, Maha Bhagavata have to take permission to give diksha , its not proper … really strange …..
especially considering the historical perspective . If another Mahabhagavat World Achariya begins to manifest and attract many souls , will any the current new Gurus be tempted say “permission denied , you must not go , these are the rules of our society “
yes, important point, in another discussion i told about this, then Brajanath prabhu told that “Its very dificult to acept the superiority of others.’ but i think at least in the rules of society should speak freely with out sectarism …. thats what i think, may be iam not correct …… or iam a fool number one .. dont know …..
Dandavat pranam Mathuranath prabhu,
Your correctly point out that a pure devotee cannot be subject or controlled by any institutional rules and regulations. Perhaps you are wondering if we are indirectly criticizing Srila Gurudeva by this policy, or if we have concocted something that Srila Gurudeva did not follow himself.
For over 20 years, Srila Gurudeva voluntarily refrained from initiating anyone while serving in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samithi. Why did he do this? He was certainly qualified as an eternally liberated associate of Srimati Radharani. He was serving within the Gaudiya Vedanta Samithi which has an acarya system where only one person gives initiation. Was he bound by this? Why did he follow that?
One answer is because of his humility and profound love and respect for Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Maharaja, whom he considered to be his siksa guru and who was certainly a maha-bhagavata of the highest order. Another reason was to preserve the principle of a single acarya in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samithi and avoid possible conflict or confusion among the disciples. He and Srila Vamana Maharaja and Srila Trivikrama Mahraja always cooperated in a most harmonious way to further the mission of their Guru-maharaja. There may be more deep reasons that others can cite.
Not all etiquette is not binding in an absolute sense, but it serves a purpose in preserving harmony in an institution and creates a proper mood of respect and behavior in sadhakas. Observing maryada is an important element in Vaisnava relationships. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura states in Jaiva Dharma that lack of spiritual knowledge (a characteristic of madhyama gurus) is not in itself a disqualification to be guru. If that guru, even though less qualified, is respectful of senior Vaisnavas and teaches proper siddhanta and has good character and behavior, then he should not be given up.
Srila Gurudeva frequently said that if a disciple wants to seek association and guidance or initiation from a higher Vaisnava, then he should first approach his own guru for permission. If that guru gives permission, then he should not be rejected. Only if permission is denied should he reject that guru and take diksa and siksa from that higher Vaisnava.
Having said that, you will note that one of the fundamental principles of the sanga that we have stated in the meetings at Govardhana, is the right and the necessity to seek out association with an uttama bhagavata. It is emphasized that even a madhyama guru needs to do this if one desires to advance to the uttama stage of bhakti. So knowing these two principles, one of etiquette and one of absolute necessity for siksa from an uttama bhagavata, if there is a conflict, we reconcile the points in favor of the higher principal- namely the need for high class association and instruction from a maha-bhagavata.
In his own practice, Srila Gurudeva generally encouraged those who approached him for diksa but had other gurus, to take siksa from him. If that other guru did not give permission, then Srila Gurudeva would give that disciple diksa. He set the example and show us the general etiquette based on respect for other Vaisnavas. He simultaneously showed appropriate etiquette while teaching and implementing the highest transcendental principles. Srila Gurudeva always said that we need to advance in bhakti to be able to understand and reconcile apparently contradictory principles. When the lesser principle serves the higher principle it is accepted. When it does not, it is discarded.
“saying this person said not to go to that person, if you go there you will fall into maya”
Dandavat Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Jai Sri Radhe
Dear Maharaja’s Prabhus and Didis,
The above statement has been spoken by Sr. members of our sanga about other Sr. respected members.
I am sure Srila Gurudeva is not pleased by such activities.
I pray that it now stops with the presentation of this paper.
your servant
Isa das
“The gopis are worshiped more than any devotee in the world.”
Srila Prabhupada
If the devotee commits an offense at the feet of a Vaisnava while cultivating the creeper of devotional service in the material world, his offense is compared to a mad elephant that uproots the creeper and breaks it. In this way the leaves of the creeper are dried up.” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta)
So we should be alert..
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja
I agree with you wholeheartedly Isa Prabhu. Srila Gurudeva always warned us to avoid criticizing others. Better we focus on our own faults and try to correct those.