by Radhakanta das
I offer my dandavat pranams to my diksa and siksa gurus, nitya lila pravistha om vishnupada Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja and nitya lila pravistha om vishnupada Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja by whose mercy and teachings the whole world is delivered. My dandavat pranams to all of our Rupanuga guru-varga, and all the dear Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis worldwide.
The Bhakti Trust, Sannyasi council and the Advisory board will be conjointly presenting to the world wide sanga the official policy for initiating gurus in our society soon. Due to the current differences of opinions, and the grave importance of the matter, it is still under deliberation. As one of the original Bhakti Trust International (BTI) Trustees chosen by Srila Gurudeva, I am ‘unofficially’ presenting my own realizations on the subject here for my own purification and the benefit of devotees.
First, I will share a little background on myself to put some context to the article. I have had 4 gurus over the past 33 years, 3 were from ISKCON and one from the Gaudiya Math. My first ‘guru’ fell down, I left my next guru for taking shelter of a superior Vaisnava and he mercifully gave me siksa for a number of years before passing on to the nitya-dhama. Lastly I accepted the shelter of Srila Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja. Nowadays, it is not uncommon to have had many gurus, both diska and siksa, especially for those of us coming from ISKCON. It is only natural then to have strong feelings, thoughts, realizations and convictions on guru-tattva. Many devotees at present are grappling with this subject of initiations. This compels me to write something on this subject to inspire thought and dialogue.
This article will look at 5 questions; who ‘should’ initiate, who ‘will’ initiate, who is ‘qualified’ to initiate, who ‘should not’ initiate and what is the importance of siksa. During this time of transition, after the departure of our beloved Srila Gurudeva, many aspiring disciples as well as preachers and devotees from around the world are wondering who will now give initiations? We have entered into the ‘graduating class’, of separation from Srila Gurudeva, and are now forced to realize Guru-tattva more deeply. This is a turning point for many devotees deciding whether to stay in the sanga or seek sadhu-sanga elsewhere or to begin initiating or to refer new devotees to their god brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nephews or nieces. The circumstance challenges us to go beyond the theory of guru-tattva and consider the practical application.
Who ‘should’ initiate?
One answer to this first question is EVERYONE. A real guru doesn’t make disciples, they make other gurus. If the guru is high class they may make many gurus. All sincere disciples of a bona-fide spiritual master are therefore destined to become a guru at some point in time when they are qualified. Those who continue to serve with dedication will eventually receive the blessings of Guru and Krsna and thus become a diksa or siksa guru eventually. It may be manifesting for some right now, some later in this lifetime and others in some future birth. But, eventually it will happen to everyone. Gurudeva never wanted his disciples to remain on the platform of Vaisnava-abhasa, kanistha adhikari, but to rise to the madhyama stage and then on to become uttama-adhikari Vaisnavas. Granted, not everyone will become a world-wide Acarya of a big mission, but when a devotee matures they will become teacher of some sort. Pure vaisnavas are natural gurus. Their words, acts and very existence are a testament to devotional service and merely by their darshan others become purified.
Who ‘will’ initiate?
Srila Gurudeva’s sanga has an abundance of qualified Vaisnavas who will initiate because he himself was a very powerful high class guru. He intentionally did not appoint a single Acarya to succeed him. If he had seen one person that was exceptionally qualified over all others he may have done so. Instead, he created many qualified sannyasis and senior devotees to take the role of Guru and spread the mission everywhere. Gurudeva’s vision was very broad, just as his predecessors. He wanted many limbs in which to expand Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission, not just a few small Gaudiya Maths in India. He also left behind a sanga that is not encumbered by rigid structure and hierarchy just to allow the natural flow of bhakti to manifest for generations to come. How marvelous was his contribution and how wonderful is his legacy. We just have to understand Gurudeva’s desires and follow them and not speculate and create something different.
If there are many successors, it is inevitable they will be on many different levels. Just as there are countless varieties of living entities with countless varieties of desires, there will also be many different types and levels of gurus. Some will be high class, some medium class and inevitably some will be lower class.
The topmost class of guru is an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava. These great souls are fully conversant in the conclusions of sastra and thus able to clear all doubts and strongly convince others to take up the path of bhakti. Being exclusively absorbed in Krsna’s loving service and pastimes in Vraja their hearts are completely free from the propensity to criticize others. Having reached or surpassed the higher stages of asakti, bhava or prema, with deep realizations, they are maha-bhagavats. Such jagat-gurus are extremely rare. Uttama-adhikaris are of three types, those who have obtained their pure eternal spiritual form, those who still have a material body but are free from all designations and impurities and at last those who are highly advanced in bhakti but still have a trace of the influence of the material mode of goodness. All three, are highly sought after association. They are so absorbed in spiritual consciousness they may not see the need to preach, feeling that everyone is already serving Krsna. They will not initiate unless they ‘come down’ to the madhyama platform either by their own mercy or the will of the Lord.
Next are the middle class madhyama gurus. They have properly received initiation into Vaisnava mantras and have fully comprehended the process of bhajan according to the conclusions of sastras. Knowing clearly the difference between reality and illusion, they are constantly engaged in all types of pure devotional services. These Vaisnavas differentiate between various gradations of Vaisnavas and relate to each one accordingly. They preach to the innocent, make friendship with Vaisnavas on their same level and take siksa from and serve those more advanced. They completely avoid envious persons inimical to bhakti. They are humble, tolerant and fixed in their practice of bhakti. The three broad levels of the madhyama stage span from anartha nivriti to nistha to ruci, even up to asakti. Madhyama-adhikari gurus can help others understand siddhanta and become strong and fixed in their bhakti-sadhana. Whatever they lack in their own realization will quickly develop by associating with any of the three types of uttama-adhikaris.
It is unlikely that new devotees will understand or appreciate an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava. They generally have to go through a succession of higher and higher association until they accumulate enough bhakti-sukriti to recognize and take advantage of such high-class sadhu sanga. Therefore, the role of a madhyama-adhikari guru is extremely important in the deliverance of the jivas. They reach out to many persons by their enthusiastic preaching who may otherwise never know bhakti. They help them to become more qualified. The madhyama-adhikari guru serves this vital function and that should not be minimized, but appreciated. These types of Vaisnavas or Gurus are numerous. They will preach and initiate.
Inevitably there will also be gurus of a lower class, kanistha-gurus. Although they perform sadhana-bhakti, they maintain some self-interest and material desires. There is little lasting effect of their preaching due to a lack of knowledge (sambhanda-jnana) and strong faith. Not knowing how to behave properly towards other Vaisnavas they commit aparadha. They are not gurus in the real sense because they have many anarthas and therefore cannot deliver their disciples from material entanglement. They can only give what they themselves possess; therefore advancement under their guidance is difficult. In India it is a common tradition in families to have a ‘kula guru’ or family priest who performs the upanayana samskara for children, especially in brahmana families. This guru is typically a kanistha-vaisnava or smarta brahmana who gives mantras and the sacred thread and performs other rituals during special occasions. Such a guru performs religious functions, but their benefit is limited to karma-misra bhakti and is not suddha-bhakti. This type of guru will initiate, but it is not advisable to accept them.
I have personally served and taken initiation from all three types of gurus, kanistha, madhyama and uttama. My statements are therefore not theoretical but practical. All three types of gurus ‘will’ obviously initiate. For a new devotee it is very difficult to qualify a guru and determine what level of advancement they may be on; and therefore a guru is usually chosen according to social considerations. To avoid making a mistake it is advisable to consult senior Vaisnavas and sincerely pray and cry to Krsna in the heart for guidance. Krsna is ‘caitya-guru’, situated in everyone’s heart, directing the wandering of all living entities and fulfilling their desires. If we pray sincerely, Krsna will make an arrangement for a suitable guru for us.
Who is ‘qualified’ to initiate?
The qualification for Guru is given everywhere in sastra, in Bhagavad-Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, Jaiva Dharma, Upadesamrita, and through ‘amnaya’, the words of our Gurudeva and previous acaryas. To understand spiritual topics we must take into consideration Guru, Sadhu and Sastra. Truth comes from a synthesis of all three. Especially we should hear our Gurudeva’s statements in relation to sastra and sadhu-vakya (words of other pure vaisnavas). It is faulty to isolate statements from a single source to try to establish the absolute praman (evidence). Sripad Sankaracarya did this by misconstruing particular Vedic aphorisms to establish his Mayavada philosophy while rejecting other sections of the Vedas. This is called ‘Half Hen logic’ and is faulty. The holistic approach of seeing the broader context is the most complete and reliable way to understand any topic, especially esoteric spiritual topics like guru-tattva.
Srimad Bhagavatam establishes the primary evidence for our philosophy (praman amalam). One prominent verse affirms the qualification of guru, SB 11.3.21.
tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam
sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam
“Therefore, if one wants to know what is one’s highest good one should accept a bonafide spiritual master. Such a spiritual master is perfectly knowledgeable and realized in the conclusions of the Vedic literatures and the Supreme Lord, having left aside all material ambitions and pleasures and has taken full shelter of the Lord.”
This verse may indicate an uttama-bhagavata who has realized knowledge of Krishna, whereas Upadesamrita, verse 1, may indicate someone on the stage of a madhyama-adhikari.
vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam
etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat
“A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.”
There are abundant sastric quotes regarding the qualification of Guru ranging from the madhyama up to the uttama stage. Overall, it is highly recommended to take initiation, diksa, and especially siksa from an uttama maha-bhagavat Vaisnava, if they are available. But they are rare in this world, and are often not easy to identify. On the other hand, madhyama-adhikaris Vaisnavas are readily available.
Srila Gurudeva made very clear statements that the minimum qualification to initiate was to be on the stage of madhyama-adhikari, and especially madhyama-madhyama (middle level of madhyama) or uttama-madhyama (highest level of madhyama), but not kanistha. According to various statements in Jaiva Dharma as well as statements made by Gurudeva himself, the middle to higher level of the madhyama stage denotes a level of spiritual advancement from nistha up to ruci or even asakti. Gurudeva instructed all his sannyasis and senior devotee preachers to initiate, recognizing them to be on these levels. At times he just said ‘sannyasis, and at other times he included ‘senior devotees’. His statements were clear that besides his sannyasis there were many other advanced brahmacaris, grhastas and vanaprasthas Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis who were qualified, some even more than a sannyasi.
A guru is recognized by their level of advancement in bhakti, not by any material designation, varna or ashram. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu identified these material designations as external and temporary.
naham vipro na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo na sudro
naham varni na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va
kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher
gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah (CC Madhya 13.80)
“‘I am not a brahmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya or a sudra. Nor am I a brahmacari, a householder, a vanaprastha or a sannyasi. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krishna, the maintainer of the gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He always exists with brilliance.’”
kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya
yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei ‘guru’ haya (CC Madhya 8.128)
“Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sudra—regardless of what he is—he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krishna.”
It is an offense to see a Vaisnava according to their place of birth, caste or ashram.
arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhir visnor va vaisnavanam
kali-mala-mathane pada-tirthe ‘mbu-buddhih sri-visnor namni mantre sakala-kalusa-he
sabda-samanya-buddhir visnau sarvesvarese tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah (Padma Purana)
“One who thinks the Deity in the temple to be made of wood or stone, who thinks of the spiritual master in the disciplic succession as an ordinary man, who thinks the Vaisnava in the Acyuta-gotra to belong to a certain caste or creed or who thinks of caranamrta or Ganges water as ordinary water is taken to be a resident of hell.”
Guru is self-evident and especially empowered by the Guru parampara and Krsna. They are not dependent on approval from any society or institution. If a society takes the role of deciding who will be initiating guru and who will not it will invariably create politics. Some devotees have recently suggested a ‘double standard’ approval process, one for ‘Indian gurus’ and another for ‘Western Gurus’. This notion is not supported by sastra and is rooted in a biased way of thinking. Many sannyasis and senior devotees protest this proposal. Yet a trend to introduce this sectarian system is still lingering. Another dangerous proposal being put forward is that initiations be given only by a select few. In the history of ISKCON post Srila Prabhupada, where 11 gurus created a monopoly on initiations, this system caused qualified senior devotees to leave the mission. We should not make the same mistake in our society by artificially limiting; trying to control or stop qualified devotees from becoming gurus.
Who ‘should not’ initiate?
Kanistha-adhikaris should not initiate. Even though they practice the limbs of bhakti, their sraddha is very pliable and weak (komala). They do not know how to properly behave towards other Vaisnavas or whose association to take. They are more concerned in maintaining temple buildings and rituals than Vaisnava-seva or preaching. Lacking tattva-jnana and being under proper guidance they continually commit aparadha. If they initiate, they will not help their disciples advance much, and there is the danger of them falling down further thus causing havoc in the lives of their disciples and the society.
In the Puranas it has been foretold that in kali-yuga demons will take birth in the families of brahmanas just to exploit innocent persons. Known as ‘kali-chelas’, they will wear kunti-mala and tilak but secretly engage in sinful activity. While posing as advanced devotees and quoting many slokas they are internally scheming how to acquire wealth, women and prestige. They are deceitful hypocrites. Srila Gurudeva has said that both the neophyte guru and the cheating guru and are not gurus, but ‘kangurus’.
The proper way for the disciple to select a guru is to ‘test’ the guru before taking initiation for a period of 6 months to 1 year. Observing the guru’s activities and seeing how they interact with their godbrothers and sisters and other Vaisnavas, and especially hearing their hari-katha, one will be able to discern something of their level of advancement and see if faith develops in them or not. If strong faith is aroused after careful observation and consideration then the relationship has merit and should be pursued. On the other hand, if faith is not aroused, then one should seek out another guru. Hastily and superficially choosing a guru just for social acceptance or as a religious ritual is simply foolish. As quickly as one accepts a guru one will leave them or the relationship will remain on a shallow platform.
Similarly, a guru should observe the disciple for a period of time to make sure they have a good character and are serious about pursuing bhakti. If a kanistha or madhyama guru collects too many disciples too quickly they may fall down. They will not be able to digest the disciple’s conditioned natures, and will become proud of having many followers. We have seen this too many times in the past.
What is the importance of Siksa?
The word ‘initiation’ means to begin or start something. It is a poor English equivalent for the Sanskrit word ‘diksa’ which Sanatan Goswami defines in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.9, quoting from the Visnu-yamala:
divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam
tasmad dikseti sa prokta desikasis tattva-kovidaih
That process which bestows transcendental knowledge (divya-jnan) and destroys sin and ignorance is called ‘diksa’ by learned authorities in the Absolute Truth.
Gurudeva has often said that at the time of initiation one enters the ‘school of diksa’. Receiving harinama and diksa mantras is just the beginning. The ongoing process of ‘siksa’ is what will bestow transcendental knowledge, dispel ignorance and destroy the propensity to commit sin. Thus siksa is vitally important in completing one’s diska. There are different instructions and siddhanta for the kanistha, madhyama and uttama Vaisnavas. As one develops in bhakti there will be a need for higher and higher siksa. If one’s diksa guru is qualified they will give siksa throughout one’s life. If they are not, then a superior Vaisnava will have to be chosen at one point to take siksa from. The diksa guru is one, but siksa gurus can be many.
If we want Vraja-bhakti, ultimately we will have to serve and take siksa from a Vraja-rasik uttama maha-bhagavat. Only they will be able to give the type of Krsna-prema found in the residents of Vrindavana. Others may help in siddhanta, but only such an uttama-bhagavat will ‘initiate’ us into Vraja-bhakti.
susrusaya bhajan-vijnam ananyam anya nindadi-sunya-hrdam ipsita-sanga-labdhya (Upadesamrita 8 )
One should fully surrender and serve the maha-bhagavat devotee, who is engaged in exclusive bhajan of Radha-Krsna in Vraja and whose heart is completely pure, free from the propensity to criticize others.
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu never gave diksa to anyone, but He gave siksa to many. The six Goswamis, His main successors, took siksa from Him and have established His mission in this world. Siksa is very powerful. Our guru parampara is dominated by siksa from maha-bhagavats. It is not just a diksa line. Therefore Gaudiya Vaisnavas stress the importance of siksa from highly advanced devotees over diksa.
In conclusion, Guru-tattva is a deep subject, not to be taken lightly. This is true for the novice as well as the experienced devotee. Every disciple should aspire to please Gurudeva and become more and more qualified. If one has surpassed the kanistha stage and reached well into the madhyama stage then they are qualified to begin initiating disciples, regardless of their nationality, caste, varna or ashram. We are fortunate to have many such devotees in our society and some that are more advanced. They will lead in continuing the Rupanuga guru-parampara. This is all due to Gurudeva’s divine potency and mercy. Those who are not yet qualified should avoid the temptation of position of guru and followers and continue to serve Vaisnavas without envy. We accept that madhyama adhikaris play a vital role in the continuation of our line and acknowledge the necessity to take siksa from a Vraja-rasika uttama-maha-bhagavat to realize the highest loving sentiments in Vraja. Let us therefore dive deep into this ocean of guru-tattva as it will protect us and help us manifest ‘jijnasuù sreya uttamam’, our ultimate good fortune in life.
Radhe Radhe
The unenlightned like myself. Who is below the Kanishta-Adikari……….
Who is born in the mode of Raja-guna and doesnot trust
anyone……not because of ‘ulterior-motive’…….!
Who has submitted his heart, jiva, mind and five senses
to keshava…..
I donot like the group thing…….WHAT GIVES?
WHAT SAY YOU’LL ?
Syma
“Siksha Guru never deserve any seva to him”
Baladeva prabhu
Please support this statement with Sastra
here is the statement of Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami: i have sended this article to u by email. about this point he says:
“Who can be accepted as a siksha guru? He who teaches service to guru, Vaishnava and God, is a siksha guru. Someone not performing the above task should not be accepted as a siksha guru. Such a person is filled with vanity and cannot do anything beneficial for anyone.
The Shastras assert that the diksha guru is the siksha guru. When he initiates, he also teaches. In this matter, the diksha guru and siksha guru are identical; however, other siksha gurus do not deserve the same honors from a disciple. If one comes into a situation where both the diksha and siksha gurus are present, he should offer pranams to the diksha guru first. The siksha guru’s turn comes after that. If one meets both his father and uncle, should he first offer pranams to his uncle? Of course not. One first offers pranams to his father. The uncle can be honored afterwards. This is the conclusion that is to be obeyed.”
“Some say that a siksha guru more worshipable and salut able than a diksha guru. It is a wrong siddhanta. Why? The matter should be understood properly. According to the scriptures,
mantra-guru ara jata siksa-guru-gana
tanhara carana-age kariye vandana
I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters. (CC 1.1.35)
My Guru who initiated me and other siksha Gurus are to be offered pranams. First of all, the diksha Guru is mentioned and the siksha Guru is indicated afterwards. The diksha Guru is only one, whereas siksha Gurus may be many, indeed innumerable. Will every one of them be accepted as equal to the diksha Guru? No, on no occasion can that be done.”
“The Chaittya Guru has made Himself visible in two different forms. How so? As the siksha guru and mahanta guru.
A mahanta guru is also a siksha guru. Is a guru free from all responsibilities after initiating his sishya? Must He not teach his sishya–“My dear son, follow this path. You should process your life in this way”? So, (a) the Chaittya Guru, Sri Vyasa Deva, is the diksha guru and (b) the diksha guru is also a siksha guru.
Will other siksha gurus not impart lessons also? They will also teach the disciple how to serve the Lord after obeying the diksha guru. If a siksha guru fails to teach the aspirant how to obey the diksha guru, he is not a true siksha guru. What is the value of his siksha? What welfare will come to the world through him? None at all. He should show the disciple the procedure, “My dear son, follow this way.” He will show the way to go to the diksha guru. He tells the disciple, “If the diksha guru is merciful, you will see the Lord afterwards. Otherwise, you will fail to get Him.”
jive saksat nahi tate guru caittya-rupe
siksa-guru han krishna mahanta-svarupe
“Since one cannot directly experience the guru as the Supersoul, Krishna appears as the siksha guru in the form of a highly advanced Vaishnava. (CC 1.1.58)
Jivas do not have any perception of the Chaittya Guru’s presence—siksa guru hon krishna mahäanta svarupe. So Krishna becomes the guru by taking the form of the mahanta, or highly advanced Vaishnava. The mahanta guru is the diksha guru. A siksha guru is never been described anywhere as a mahanta guru. This is clearly stated here. Anyone desirous of challenging this interpretation is welcome to try.
Does one become a diksha guru simply by teaching about Bhagavan? A siksha guru will teach one to faithfully render service to one’s diksha guru. If the siksha guru excludes the diksha guru and becomes “Brahman” simply by uttering aham brahmasmi (“I am Brahman”), it will be a total massacre. The diksha guru is a mahanta guru. He has come to deliver the jivas.”
and to finish His discourse about the diference between diksha and siksha guru He says:
“How can the theories of siksha guru and diksha guru be known?
krishna yadi kripa kare kona bhagyavane
guru-antaryami-rupe sikhaya apane
Krishna is situated in everyone’s heart as Chaitya Guru, the spiritual master within. When He is kind to some fortunate conditioned soul He personally gives one lessons to progress in devotional service instructing the person as the Supersoul within and the spiritual master without. (CC 2.22.47)
Can the Supreme Truth be known through debate? No, for this verse speaks of a bhagyavan or fortunate person — krishna yadi kripa kare kona bhagyavane. Not everyone is fortunate. Guru-antaryami-rupe sikhaya apane – He will teach as the antaryami. Krishna has kindly send the guru. If He did not do so, how could you get His mercy? A guru is thus sent to you. Then if you prepare your heart by following his directions, Krishna will mercifully appear there. Srila Jiva Goswami wrote;
bhagavat-kripa bhakta-kripanugamini
bhakta-kripa bhagavat-kripanugamini
The blessings of the Lord are made available through the grace of the guru and the blessings of the guru come down from the Lord. The two are inseparatably related. If the Lord shows His mercy, I shall get the kåpä of the guru. When the spiritual master is merciful, the Lord’s blessings become available.
If a siksha guru proudly says, “I am as worthy of honor as the diksha guru,” this is improper. Why should a siksha guru be desirous of getting the honors due to the diksha guru? It is usually best to choose a siksha guru from among your guru’s Godbrothers. You must offer your pranam to him, but should not do so in the presence of your gurudeva. This is the etiquette. If I sees my guru standing with one of his godbrothers, should I offer my pranam to my guru or to his godbrother? The siddhanta is that I shall bow down to my guru. If he directs me to offer pranams to the other Maharaj, it is proper to do so.”
i think may be in yours Swamiji´s disciples may have a diferent case, because u were not allow to continue your seva togueter with other´s Swamiji´s disciples, but my case was quite diferent. My siksha guru always told me that i should serve my diksha Guru, i should pray to my Diksha Guru and that my Diksha Guru will satisfy me. he never told me that i should serve him. I heard Gurudev saying that He also wanted to encrease Swamiji´s disciples faith on Him.
good to discuss guru tattva with u, as its the most important to be understood, iam learning so much with all of u seniors devotees, thanks.
“I dont acept that iam eternal servaint of Krishna. If i have some position in this world, it have to be undertood by the intesity of seva iam doing to my Gurudev. Iam the eternal servaint of my Gurudev.” B.K.Santa Goswami.
isa prabhuji, dandavats
when i read this article of Santa Goswami it made me to meditate more on guru-tattva, because others Acharyas have made diferent statements in this regard. For me its a normal thing as we saw many times in our Parampara. Trying to understand how to harmonize all these statments, this words of Srila Sridhar Goswami Maharaj in his book S.G. and His Grace gave comfort to my heart:
“Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That is because they are situated in a formal position, but when they enter into the substantial spiritual realization, they will not have such a grievance because they will see what is guru . Guru means one who has come to give Krsna consciousness. The formal difference will be reduced when one can catch the very substance of the teachings for which the guru is respected. When one is intimately connected with the thread of divine love which the guru comes to impart to us, he will accept it, wherever it comes from. He will see it as a friendly relation, not antagonistic, but cooperative.
Although separate in figure, at heart both of the gurus are the same because they have a common cause. They have not come to fight with one another; they have come to fight only with the agents of Satan. If we can recognize the real thing for which we are approaching the guru, then we will understand how to make the adjustment in our relationship with the siksa guru, diksa guru, and vartma-pradarsaka guru.”
Mundane pressures or Divine Pleasures?
When indivisible India
was dangerously divided
by the demoniac devils
from a kingdom, called ‘united’
the saviors of so-called mankind,
seeing the need of the hour,
began their preparations for the greatest golden shower
Flooding a barren planet
drowning in intoxication
with their saintly association
in the form of sublime publications
Like the sweet chirping of the birds
conquering hearts in all directions
their immortal messages are heard
saving us all from our predilections
Are we heading their advice
to journey deep within,
or are we too addicted
to accept and begin?
This crucial inner space travel
which alone will gradually unravel
exactly where we lost the plot
in our eagerness perhaps we forgot
that to board the forgotten train of thought
of loving feelings for the Lord
(Whose form we are bereft of seeing)
we must worship the Supreme Being
She, Whose mercy will soothe our hearts
at this time where we all may feel parched
in want of Her infinite compassion
accepting Sri Guru is not just a fashion
Neither a relationship drowned by the sands of Time
nor a mere show of our spiritual merits
So, let’s not become partners in crime
but realize what the true disciple inherits
Also not a treasure of any earthly measure
but the storehouse of all divine shakti
Sweet SEVA for the Supreme pleasure
Blessed by the Goddess of Prema Bhakti
Dear Narasingha Prabhu
All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
HAre Krsna
There are so many disciples and siksa disciples of Srila Gurudeva it would be impossible for me to really answer your question. It is up to each to search their heart to see what is best for their advancement and how to best serve Srila Gurudeva. Personally, Srila Gurudeva told me the best way to serve Srila Prabhupada was to become “Krsna Conscious.”
I would like to share with you this quote from Srila Prabhupada.
For Lord Shiva’s Appearance Day – The disciple should not consider whether he is going back home, back to Godhead
It is clear that to perform austerities or penances, or, for that matter, any form of devotional service, one has to be guided by a spiritual master. Here it is clearly stated that the ten sons of Maharaja Pracinabarhi were favored by the appearance of Lord Siva, who, out of great kindness, gave them instructions regarding the execution of austerities. Lord Siva actually became the spiritual master of the ten sons, and in turn his disciples took his words so seriously that simply by meditating upon his instructions (dhyayantah) they became perfect. This is the secret of success. After being initiated and receiving the orders of the spiritual master, the disciple should unhesitatingly think about the instructions or orders of the spiritual master and should not allow himself to be disturbed by anything else. This is also the verdict of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who, while explaining a verse of Bhagavad-gita (vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana, Bg. 2.41), points out that the order of the spiritual master is the life substance of the disciple. The disciple should not consider whether he is going back home, back to Godhead; his first business should be to execute the order of his spiritual master. Thus a disciple should always meditate on the order of the spiritual master, and that is perfectional meditation. Not only should he meditate upon that order, but he should find out the means by which he can perfectly worship and execute it.
Purport SB 4.24.15
Your servant
Isa das
My dear Isa prabhu
dandavat-pranams, all glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, Jaya Radhe
I much appreciate your response, and all your comments, as ever – when I met you in Houston, your profound insights and realizations, as properly fueled by your having deeply drunk of the nectarean instructions and association of Srila Gurudev for so many years, deeply impressed me, and propelled my finding myself beseeching his shelter at that time – so please accept my most affectionate respects prabhu.
Yes, I so much concur with the spirit of your message – each of us has our own journey, our own very specific path, needs, lessons, relationship to be developed with Guru and Krsna, and we cannot hope to find some universal template whereby we needn’t really deeply (ie consciously) engage with what’s occurring in our own lives … the ‘protection’ of a full set of rules to cover every possibility! But Krsna-consciousness requires our being conscious, not on automatic!
So what to do, and how to do it? This question occurs over and over for each of us, and my thinking is that the answer we alight on is going to be as ‘good’ as the actual motive with which we ask it – and we each have to go into our own hearts and clarify this for ourselves. The more we truly wish to develop our genuine affection, and service attitude (what to speak of love and surrender) towards Gurudev, and the less we are concerned with ‘what’s in it for me?’ then the more, and the more direct, the particular answers that occur for us will help us achieve the same.
I don’t think we can really make a mistake here …
Thankyou again for your responses, I will make sure to re-read them to appreciate them better. With gratitude for all your service, for making Srila Gurudev’s Hari-katha so widely available, and humbly requesting you to expand upon this same service by becoming more actively engaged in sharing your own realizations of the same …
Your servant
Narasingha das
“Is ipbys another sectarian society”
A society is made up of persons, all the persons in our sanga I know have no desire to create a “sectarian society”
We are working hard to understand each other and continue the flow of love Srila Gurudeva has instilled in each of our hearts.
It is my prayer that all negative emotions be expressed carefully so they may be addressed by the Vaishnavas.
Certainly we should all wait till after Kartik to see the level of love and cooperation that truly exists in the hearts of our sanga members.
your servant
Isa das
i hope that All Maha Bhagavatas, no matter which math they are , will always be given proper honor and prestige and that our sanga will contribute to this.
dandavat-pranams and Hare Krsna to you, Radhakanta and Isa prabhus, and to all the other Vaisnavas
Isa-ji, Radhakanta-ji
Though I have already posted this, because I truly wish to hear your responses for my own edification, either you have not seen it or have not thus far cared to respond to it … I humbly request you do so, both for my sake and perhaps the sake of anyone else with a similar concern …
This is such an essential topic, and I thank both of you for your profound insights and contemplations – naturally it affects me also, as it does us all, and so I recently wrote a letter with a few questions I was hoping you would address specifically – I don’t know if you are not paying attention to any other possible ‘chains’ re. this topic, or if my questions were too simplistic or something like that, but I would be very grateful if you did indeed answer them.
Specifically, I would like to know how you visualize the effect of us going to various other elevated souls for guidance and the possibility of intimate personal association on Gurudev’s specific mission and services he has requested the devotees perform – eg in regard to establishing IPBYS on firm ground and further developing it, including establishing centers for people to come to (beginning with LA), and placing special emphasis on distributing his own books.
I know the circumstance was very different with ISKCON inasmuch as that society actually barred Gurudev from giving his association – and one result was that the devotees that left there basically withdrew their support for Prabhupada’s specific projects … of course, they no longer trusted the direction they were getting within ISKCON, and were confident that their devotional service was being properly received and directed by the mahabhagavat, Srila Gurudev …
But I’m wondering how it will be for us to go to someone who we then accept as siksa guru, will we not naturally feel the urge to then engage our energies in accordance with their specific missions – or is my question simply a reflection of such neophyte consciousness I am imagining conflict where there really is none?
Thanks prabhus, Hare Krsna
Narasingha das
At the end of the day, who is in control of where and how? Not us. Krishna is the Supreme Controller. Have you considered for a moment that seeking Siksha elsewhere is also another way of Srila Gurudev’s preaching mission being extended? In other words, via association and discusssion there. The bigger picture of all of this is almost too big for us to see. We are like microscopic beings in a much larger picture. If we found Srila Gurudev, it was through Supersoul acting. In the fallout of the devasation of Srila Gurudev’s leaving his body, we have to trust the same inspiration which actually came in the first place to bring us towards him. In other words, that Supersoul and Gurudev will move us again in what is right for each of us. Each relationship is so unique and so different, they both know what is right for each particular soul. Is this not where the “walk your talk” comes in? Is this not the real living of it? Bhakti is so personal and biased in each individual soul towards their “mood”. Concerns about the repetition of the past keeps the mind, which we all know is difficult to tame, in the past, rather than on Krishna. Maya does not stop at the temple door. It uses every opportunity to distract us from our true path. These are just my feelings. I am not a person who can quote scripture, chapter and verse. Please take no offence.
Dear Narasingha Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams. Thank you for your comments and sorry for the late reply. Due to intensive travel in Asia, this is the first chance I have had of rest to answer you. Please forgive me. Your questions require some thought so I did not want to impulsively respond but take the proper time and space to give you the answer you deserve. They are good questions and reveal that you are not only a ‘thinking man’ but one who is concerned not only with yourself but for the welfare of others.
I will respond to your 3 questions here one after the other. The first question you asked what will happen to the preaching activities of the sanga if everyone searches out an uttama adhikari guru (presuming they are outside our sanga)? My response is that most devotees are not searching so earnestly. Most will be satisfied to stay in the sanga, even if there is no apparent uttama maha-bhagavata available. One definition of a maha-bhagavata is that they have attained the level of prema, and that is very rare. This means they are nitya-siddha and have descended to help all of us. These rare souls lead movements and they are not found on every street corner or Math.
The preaching will still go on regardless. There are a number of advanced devotees in the sanga. If they show love and affection for the devotees, they will keep the society intact. Keep in mind that the preaching activities you mentioned like book distribution and maintaining centers are the activities of the madhyama-adhikaris, not the uttama-bhaktas. Uttama-adhikaris cannot preach because they see Krsna everywhere and everything in perfect harmony. It is when they come down to the madhyama platform that they preach. ISKCON’s preaching and temples are still functioning, even thriving in some areas, after the departure of their maha-bhagavata founder acarya, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. So preaching will go on. It is Krsna’s desire that this movement be spread on many different levels far and wide.
Even if some devotees leave to seek out other advanced association, which they will, this will be a small section. Only those devotees who have an intense desire for high class sadhu-sanga will search it out. They may find such association inside or outside our sanga. Maha-bhagavats are always available for those who have the adhikar to associate with them and those who really have the interest (not just by their words but by making the appropriate endeavors and sacrafices).
Remember that even our Srila Gurudeva told the disciples of madhyama gurus in ISKCON and other institutions to remain loyal to their gurus and even seek their permission to take siksa from him. He thus taught that to serve an institution and a society doesn’t preclude taking siksa from a maha-bhagavata outside that society. You are right if a devotee feels so inspired they may decide to leave the society. That is their prerogative. Still many devotees will stay.
Secondly, you ask if everyone was to leave our society to seek higher sadhu-sanga will this leave only the institutional fanatics who have lost the desire and heart for sadhu-sanga? It is not so black and white. Certainly sadhu-sanga keeps everyone’s bhakti progressing and fresh. But it is relative. What is sadhu sanga for one person is not for another. It depends on the individual’s level of advancement. As we progress in bhakti we require higher and higher sadhu-sanga, free from the confines of institutional or ecclesiastical considerations. Devotional perfection will take many lives of concentrated effort. It does not happen in one lifetime. Surely there is lots of sadhu-sanga in our society for many of the devotees in it.
Lastly you ask if we were to take association of another maha-bhagavata devotee outside our sanga how will we serve our Gurudeva’s mission and not becoming distracted by the other maha-bhagavata’s mission? This is an interesting question. Thank you for asking it and allowing me to ponder an answer. I heard that someone asked something like this of one senior devotee and he responded that they should stay in our society if they want to imbibe the specialty of our gurudeva’s mood. This is one answer. On the other hand, Srila Gurudeva would often tell Srila Prabhupada disciples that he was helping them to understand and serve their guru better, and he was not replacing him. It was clear that he was outside the formal ISKCON society, yet he accomplished that. So, it may be that another maha-bhagavat can help us understand our gurudeva’s moods and teachings, even though he may be outside our society. We also have to go deep and try to understand what is our Gurudeva’s mood above and beyond the society, above and beyond even this material world. What is his mood and seva in the spiritual world? Then we can really serve him internally in raganuga-bhakti, regardless of our external situation.
You asked how, “To become fully inspired and absorbed in the specifics of Srila Gurudeva’s mission and society that he clearly wanted developed”. In all my 15 years associating with Srila Gurudeva I never got the impression that he was interested in leaving a legacy of a society, or that serving him meant serving a society. He mostly impressed upon us the importance of the higher teachings of bhakti and wanted us to imbibe those teachings and become advanced ourselves. Advancement can be acquired by sadhu-sanga, period. Guru is one, and ultimately Krsna is inspiring all sadhus to give to others what is already in their hearts in a latent form, one’s eternal relationship with Krsna. Krsna is the adi-guru, and he says, ‘Know Me to be the Acarya’, so He himself is directing the wanderings of everyone everywhere, not individuals, gurus or societies.
We can take sadhu-sanga wherever it may be. We should mainly be concerned about developing our bhakti and serving the inner desires of our Gurudeva. This will include preaching, but preaching is not limited to a society. A society may facilitate or help the preaching but it is not absolutely necessary. Our Gurudeva has left a mission that is more than the buildings or the society. His real legacy is the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Goswami, and those devotees he has inspired those teachings in their hearts. . Gurudeva often asked devotees struggling with idea about leaving ISKCON, what is the real meaning of ISKCON? He would ask was Brahmaji a member of ISKCON, how about Narada Muni? He would then answer that real ISKCON (or IPBYS in this case) is the teachings of Srila Rupa Goswami and our acaryas. If an institution carries these conceptions we are happy to be part of it. Otherwise we should seek out a society or individuals who do carry them. Wherever there is an opportunity for sadhu-sanga we should take it ‘at once’ as Srila Rupa Goswami declares in his verse, “Krsna bhakti rasa bhavita matih”. It is a personal choice where to take sadhu sanga and not something that can be legislated.
Thank you Radhakanta prabhu-ji, dandavat-pranams.
I greatly appreciate all that you have said here. I much appreciated the comment regarding the need to remain in this society (and serve the speciifc instructions in said regards as given by Srila Gurudev) so as to imbibe his mood.
Yes, on the one hand I hear the reasoning for seeking out the personal association of the uttama-adhikaris, together with your observation that such a search also requires deep desire for such elevated association, and the attendant sukriti. (As an aside of course, we can see how Srila Prabhupad and then Srila Gurudev simply came to us and gave us such association, regardless of our own qualifications or lack thereof … Srila Prabhupada also famously replied to one devotee who was asking about this very thing, that he himself created our requisite sukriti!)
Then on the other hand, how do we actually develop this intense desire in our hearts, how do we make such advancement? … and I recognize the profound value of statements from elevated Vaisnavas who say that they are simply aspiring for the service of their Gurudev, rather than seeing themselves as servants of Radha-Krsna. Indeed, I have read this very instruction in various of Gurudev’s and other acaryas’ books, that we must cultivate our love for Gurudev first, and without so-doing, we cannot hope to actually develop our love for the Divine Couple.
So I am thinking that whether we go here or there, whether we look to stay primarily inside the society established as IPBYS or whether we seek out another uttam-bhagavat, the essential thing is as to why we would do any of this. My primary concern must be how can I best serve my Gurudev, how can I develop one drop of actual love for him, where can I find association that can inspire me to do some kind of service, just something, never mind how small or insubstantial, but that at least begins to focus my heart on him?
If I am looking either to stay here or to go there primarily on account of my own satisfaction or curiosity or comfort or hope for my own spiritual advancement, I think I am missing the point … and I am also thinking if I my concern is how to serve, how to surrender, how to come from where I am towards Srila Gurudev and his pleasure, then Krsna will make clear what my own next steps must be, whether or not such are in agreement with any external proposal. And at the same time, for me to even hope to develop such an attitude, considering how the material energy is constantly pushing me to think of anything but surrender to, and the pleasure of, Guru and Krishna, I know I must seek out the association of his disciples and devotees who are so much more aligned with such than me.
I recognize there is no simple single universal ‘answer’ that can be encapsulated in any statement … we each have our own specific set of circumstances, Krsna will make whatever arrangements are best for each of us. And these wonderful discussions that senior devotees such as yourself and Isa prabhu are putting forth and developing provide such excellent opportunities for persons such as myself to become more focussed and thoughtful, and to let go of my own automatic ‘knee-jerk’ responses and beliefs, and to finally gain faith in the perfection of it all, in the perfect guidance and affection of Sri Guru and Krsna. This path is based on faith, on surrender, not on figuring everything out, ahead of time!
Anyway, previously, I may have had strong leanings towards either ‘yes, the right thing to do is to stay in the society,’ or ‘yes, the best thing to do is to seek out another maha-bhagavat’ – now I feel more confident that it is all perfect, that Krsna may lead me to do one thing or the other, or both, at different times, but that need not be my focus, nor need I look towards such discussions in a challenging manner, determined to establish which is the ‘right’ and which is the ‘wrong’ answer, both for me as well as for everyone else! Rather, as long as I can sincerely and regularly try to connect with Gurudev internally, I can trust that he will make the right arrangements for me at exactly the right time.
I look forward to seeing you in Badger, perhaps? I expect to be there at least for the last 3 days, along with my wife and daughter, from where we will spend a few days looking some more at Northern California as the place for us to reside in next …
All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga
Aspiring to receive just a little drop of genuine love for Srila Gurudev,
Narasingha das
“It is queer that this statement would be made to you. Perhaps you can think more deeply why Srila Gurudeva has said this to you and what his meaning was.”
Dear Radha Kanta Prabhu,
Srila Gurudeva gave me this instruction when I tried to make a comment during His discussion with another devotee. Thank you for your encouragement that I meditate on it in deeper way. I am sure you know I am expert in putting my “foot in my mouth.”
As for the names of those in Srila Gurudeva’s mood, they have honored Srila Gurudeva in the last Harmonist presented to Srila Gurudeva for His Vyasa Puja.
your servant
Isa das
ps I do not see your post in the thread.
Dandavats Isa Prabhu. Thank you. I understand then that perhaps Srila Gurudeva was irritated with you that you were making an unsolicited comment during his discussion with someone else, and therefore he made that comment to you. That is my speculation. I wouldn’t take it as a life long edict. Gurudeva wants all his senior disciples and followers to speak and preach. You are certainly doing that anyways by your selection of certain quotes.
My post is underneath Narahari Prabhu’s reply to your last post. Thats how B2B does it when replying.
Thank you Isha Prabhu for writing something that has been on my mind for 4 months. That is how we as a sanga continually reminded ISCKON devotees for many years that they need to have a “living” mahabhagavat guru to help them advance. Now, with Srila Gurudev’s departure there is absolutely no discussiona about this!!!
Dandavat pranams
may be this verse of Brhad Bhagavatamrta explain why, here Gopa Kumara is asking about the efulgent and beautifull personalities who apeared in svarga -loka, where Gopa Kumar was that time, he is asking about them to Demigods:
“The demigods were full of pride and their hearts were aflicted by envy. They were embarrassed to describe the maharsis´s inherent superiority and remained silent. Their guru, Sri Brhaspati, however, did reply”
may be some do not acept the superiority of bona fide Gurus outside the sanga, because then they will be minimized, but those dont want to be a “important person or devotee” will run to His lotus feet.
“At this time, though, there is a need for many devotees to understand how to deal with and understand what is happening around them regarding guru-tattva. So, a sober and careful study will serve the devotees well.”
Dandavat Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Jai Sri Radhe
Dear Radhakanta Prabhu,
I have been instructed by Srila Gurudeva not to speak until I am on His level, this why I try to send only quotes. But since you have directed your comment to me I will try to answer.
In Srila Prabhupada’s NOI text 5 Purport He states
“A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance”
As you and others have pointed out, if the disciple and “intermediate” level Guru are sincere and seek “higher” sadhu sanga then all is reconciled. Thus fulfilling Srila Prabhupada’s final words in that purport. “Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.” The disciple and Guru taking Siksa from an uttama-adhikārī Guru.
So far in all the discussions I do not see this being brought up directly in terms of our world wide sanga.
Srila Gurudeva mentioned the names of Sr. Vaishnava’s outside our sanga who were in His same mood.
We always told ISKCON, You need the direction of an uttama-adhikārī, Srila BV Narayan Maharaja, to continue to make advancement. Srila Gurudeva said this Himself.
I would be happy to see those Vaishnavas, Srila Gurudeva mentioned as being in His mood, placed in a prominent position as Siksa Gurus for our sanga.
Srila Prabhupada
“So the principle is that whatever you are instructed by the Caitya Guru internally may be confirmed by the instructor or initiator externally.”
Letter to: Sivananda-New Vrindaban 21 May, 1969
“A pure devotee under the guidance of another experienced devotee can obtain all theresults, even at present.”
SB 1.10.27 P Departure of Lord Krsna for Dvaraka
Please forgive any offenses I may have committed.
your servant
Isa das
jaya Isa Prabhu,
you hit the hammer right on the head of the nail.
I also would like to see this:
“I would be happy to see those Vaishnavas, Srila Gurudeva mentioned as being in His mood, placed in a prominent position as Siksa Gurus for our sanga.”
otherwise I think I will be in another Iskcon again, which
is something I´m not ready for.
Jay Isa Prabhu….
Gurudev also say in ‘siksha guru and priya bandhu”
“I consider it my duty and religious principle to follow to follow the order of the pure vaisnavas. Therefore as soon as i meet any devotee regardless of what group he may be from wheter the group of Srila Sridhar Maharaj or other acharyas or within iskcon, i aceot them all as followers of Prabhupad. As far as is possible i respect and help them all in a liberal manner; i do not see diferenct parties of devotees. It is not that i only consider those who are in our Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. rather i go beyond that, breaking the walls of institutions. I know that when a vaisnava is serving his bona fide Guru, especially a Guru in the line of B.S.Thakur Prabhupad, he always try to serve everyone with out consideration of caste or creed.”
Dear Isa Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams. You are speaking loud and clear by the slokas you choose to string together to make your points. So, you are surely speaking and taking a definite clear stand on the issues being discussed regarding Guru-tattva. Srila Gurudeva has told many of his preachers to speak boldly the philosophy and preach far and wide although they are clearly not on his level. It is queer that this statement would be made to you. Perhaps you can think more deeply why Srila Gurudeva has said this to you and what his meaning was.
Now that you have clarified your points they are well taken and I agree with them 100%. Even in my article I addressed the need for higher siksa in the last point, “What is the importance of Siksa”? I also deal with this issue of the necessity for continual siksa, even for one who has attained prema-bhakti (CC M 22.83). Sadhu-sanga always remains the most essential limb of bhakti. It is good that you point this out to remind all devotees not to become too independent and loose the association of godbrothers and advanced Vaisnavas during their advancement in bhakti, even in the stage of becoming guru. We have seen how this has played havoc in other institutions.
You mentioned that there are elevated devotees that Srila Gurudeva has recognized as being in his mood who are not in our sanga. Now of course everyone wants to know who they are. So, since you brought it up, who are they?
Who are they??? Every 3 worlds know that Sri Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj is a Maha-Bhagavata Vaisnava, in the line of Rupa And Gurudev Goswamis. Bhakti Kumud Santa Goswami, Bhakti Dayita Madhav Goswami, Bhakti Vigyan Bharati Goswami, Bhakti Vedanta Narayan Goswami, all this Acharyas told, whats the dificult to acept and to say to all. Is ipbys another sectarian society or we try to follow Gurudev´s character ….
dandavat-pranams and Hare Krsna to you, Radhakanta and Isa prabhus, and to all the other Vaisnavas
This is such an essential topic, and I thank both of you for your profound insights and contemplations – naturally it affects me also, as it does us all, and so I recently wrote a letter with a few questions I was hoping you would address specifically – I don’t know if you are not paying attention to any other possible ‘chains’ re. this topic, or if my questions were too simplistic or something like that, but I would be very grateful if you did indeed answer them.
Specifically, I would like to know how you visualize the effect of us going to various other elevated souls for guidance and the possibility of intimate personal association on Gurudev’s specific mission and services he has requested the devotees perform – eg in regard to establishing IPBYS on firm ground and further developing it, including establishing centers for people to come to (beginning with LA), and placing special emphasis on distributing his own books.
I know the circumstance was very different with ISKCON inasmuch as that society actually barred Gurudev from giving his association – and one result was that the devotees that left there basically withdrew their support for Prabhupada’s specific projects … of course, they no longer trusted the direction they were getting within ISKCON, and were confident that their devotional service was being properly received and directed by the mahabhagavat, Srila Gurudev …
But I’m wondering how it will be for us to go to someone who we then accept as siksa guru, will we not naturally feel the urge to then engage our energies in accordance with their specific missions – or is my question simply a reflection of such neophyte consciousness I am imagining conflict where there really is none?
Thanks prabhus, Hare Krsna
Narasingha das
ddvats narasingha prabhuji ….
i think no, we would feel more and more inclinated to do gurudev-seva in our sanga. Siksha Guru never deserve any seva to him, but he always encrease our faith in our Diksha Guru, if he do not do this, he is not real siksha guru. i could feel this with my Siksha Guru. he told me how much Gurudev is glorious and that i should pray to him in this dificult moment, then He would give me bliss. This was His words. This is the business of Siksha, He encrease our guru-nistha for our diksha.
Hare Krsna prabhus
dandavat-pranams – all glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga
So I have a couple of questions in regards to reconciling these two instructions of a) always seeking out the association of the oure uttama-adhikari guru and b) continuing our particular branch of the line by way of recognizing madhyam-adhikari gurus (who have come ‘up’ to this platform).
1) If we adhere first and foremost to a), then what will happen to Gurudev’s desires and mission in regard to the focused distribution of his books, and the building and development for such centres as LA and of IPBYS in general?
2) Will such a mission only be taken up by devotees who would perhaps then be considered as fanatical or closed-minded loyalists unable to appreciate the real heart of all our teachings in regards to always seeking out the highest possible sadhu-sangha? Does the old maxim regarding ‘don’t ask ‘what can you country (guru) do for you, but rather ask what can you do for your country (guru)’ have any relevance here?
3) How might the teaching regarding the primary importance of associating directly with Guru through his vani as distinct from vapu relate to this discussion?
4) I think in regards to these questions, perhaps what I am especially looking to understand is if we are to seek the association and guidance of another manifestation of suddha-bhakta maha-bhagavat uttama-adhikari guru, how would we take that in such a way as to become fully inspired and absorbed in the specifics of Srila Gurudev’s mission and society that he clearly wanted developed, as opposed to then becoming absorbed in the specific and distinct mission of that new (to us) uttama personality?
Thanking you in advance for your kind consideration
Aspiring to become a servant of Srila Gurudev and the vaisnavas
Narasingha das
4)
Srila Prabhupada’s advice on the subject:
“Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master”
NOI Text 5 Purport
“In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiṣṇavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.”
Dear Isa Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams Prabhu. I can see that you have been very active in the e-mail and internet dialogues regarding Guru-tattva. As a senior Prabhupada disciple you surely have some good contributions and are always referring to sastra. Sastra caksus is our real vision and you always provide substance either from sastra or guru vakhya.
As I have stated in my article to know the truth conclusively we must reconcile the statements of guru, sadhu and sastra. All 3 must be considered in order to know the truth of any given topic. Especially if there is an apparent contradiction we should take help from guru and sadhu vakya to understand sastra. In sastra there are many apparently opposing points to instruct devotees of different levels according to their current needs. Therefore without reconciling these statements there will be confusion.
In the famous verse you quote, NOI 5, especially the purport, Srila Prabhupada is saying that one should accept an uttama Vaisnava as ones guru. It is true. No one can argue this. I use to quote this purport repeatedly myself when discussing this topic with devotees, as it seems to conclusively state that one should only accept a maha-bhagavat as guru. However, you cannot take one sloka out of context of all the others and establish siddhanta, the conclusive truth. We also have to reconcile Srila Gurudeva’s apparently contradictory statements on this subject. Then we will have the real understanding. For this you can reference Srila Gurudeva’s lecture in LA (Los Angeles, California: June 12, 2005 lecture), which was just published here on Back to Bhakti. Being the archives master you are certainly familiar not only with this lectures but many lectures and statements Srila Gurudeva gave supporting the madhyama-guru.
Isa Prabhu you are famous for your quick wit. We can always count on you for direct and no nonsense comments. At this time, though, there is a need for many devotees to understand how to deal with and understand what is happening around them regarding guru-tattva. So, a sober and careful study will serve the devotees well. Hare Krsna.
oops – I meant to say (in last main paragraph) ‘cheaters’ and then ‘cheated,’ not ‘cheaters’ again.
Hare Krsna, dandavat-pranams to all the assembled devotees, all glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga,
It is clear that different devotees have different beliefs and insights in regards to this issue, each with its own sastric support and good reasoning. Of course, when we are conditioned, our logic makes perfect sense to us, just as a person wearing yellow glasses sees clearly how everything really is yellow; and because of our conditioning, we cannot help but be inclined towards conclusions that support our already existing inclinations and intentions. So how do we see past all this?
Of course, the pure devotee is able to harmonize all such apparent contradiction, and afford us a vision that is transcendental to all our own limitations. But how do WE find harmony inside of all these different understandings?
I don’t think it likely we will find harmony in the form of consensus, where by some process we will all come to the same vision: has that ever happened? We are individuals with different experiences, beliefs and understandings: different lessons and challenges are presented at different times for each of us, Sri Guru is meeting each of our specific needs accordingly. So why would or should we all see and respond to things the same way?
Is there really only one right answer for everyone? How might we come to a stage of what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur referred to as Unity in Diversity?
How can we be with all this diversity in a way that fosters harmony, love, affection and respect between ourselves as a society (of individuals) and that also leads us closer as individuals to Sri Guru in our own hearts?
I recognize that an institution requires a single policy to provide for its cohesiveness – but whatever Sri Sri Radha-Krishna and Their transcendental associates have already decided will embrace each of us exactly as Their mercy intends, regardless of our beliefs and plans and everything else … we are not the doers here! Have things gone in the past in ways that they ‘shouldn’t’ have – are we really responsible for how things will go in the future? Does ‘om purnam idam …’ really apply to this world and all our situations at every moment?
If this is all true, maybe we can relax, and know it is not actually up to us to determine and direct how things need to go for the greatest benefit of everyone else. Clearly we must apply ourselves wholeheartedly to considering, with both our minds and our hearts, what our duties must be … I know I have to find my part to play, and it may or may not be right for any or everyone else. I joined ISKCON shortly after Srila Prabhupada left, perhaps a year and a half after I had the inestimable fortune of sitting with him briefly at the Kumbha Mela in Allahabad; I went through the ISKCON thing for so many years, I left there and wandered in the material desert for more years … and finally came, somehow or other, to the lotus feet of Gurudev, not so very long before he departed. Who would have predicted such a thing? By what plan or institutional directive did such occur?
We could perhaps be a little ‘two-headed’ about all this – one head for knowing that in one sense, it doesn’t matter, that the transcendental will must have Their way regardless. As Krsna told Arjuna, basically: “You can do as you choose – but know that these will all die anyway, I have already willed it.” And the other head is for coming to full conviction and determination and commitment to one’s own service, one’s own path, as best s/he can understand it at the moment … and again, to Arjuna – “if you like, you can be My instrument” … and be fully satisfied, attaining all goals, up to and including the supreme destination, prema-bhakti.
I am reading all these different points of view to see what calls the loudest to me, what and who is attracting my mind and heart both – and I trust that, I trust the experiences and lessons that will come for me on this path. I trust Gurudev, I trust that he is with me, guiding me and never rejecting me, regardless of what errors I may make.
praying to rise to such a platform of being able to offer unlimited and unceasing heartfelt obeisances to the lotus feet of Srila Gurudev
Dear Syamapada Prabhu,
The article of Radhakanta Prabhu is strictly based on the instructions of Srila Gurudeva to sannyasis and other senior devotees on different occasions . There are all the evidences .Once one sannyasi asked Srila Gurudeva do you mean something else when you are giving these instructions ,Gurudeva replied I have one face not two . Of course Radhakanta Prabhu could add some more explanations about the diksa process to clarify more . But whatever he has written is all based on the teachings of Srila Gurudeva and our acaryas . You can see the history of Gaudiya vaisnavism ,you can find all the gurus appointed by our guruvargas including HDG Bhakti raksaka Sridhara Maharaj according to this principles quoted in the essay . If you are interested you can listen the series of classes Gurudev gave on Madhurya Kadambini about “the cause of bhakti is the bhakti present in the heart of Madhyama adhikari vaisnavas” .Once Srila Gurudeva cut all our arguments to establish this concept about madhyama adhikaris position being a Guru . You can hear all the questions asked by different senior devotees and Srila Gurudeva’s answers also . Then you will be fully convinced what Radhakanta Prabhu has written all true siddhanta not Guru-aparadha . If you have more arguments on this subject you can personally enquire from Radhakanta Prabhu or other senios devotees who directly discussed these tiopcs with Srila Gurudeva . I hope you will understand me . Hare Krsna .
I am always eager to see and hear from Radhakantha prabhu. Thus this article is true to form.
Still it would be good for the readers to re-read the “True Conception of Sri Guru-tattva” essays found in the download section of purebhakti.com
This deep and dynamic topic is a vital part of sambhanda-jnan. Elusive as it may be for the aspiring sadhak to find a real, or qualified guru as a result of his/her own inner necessity, we are ever cautioned (as above) to recognize, then remain aloof from the dangers of choosing a guru from the soup of social customs (often extortions) prevalent everywhere. In Sri Caitanya Caritamrta (adi 1.35 ppt), Srila Prabhupada warns:
“It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions.”
Thus, I pray that the prevailing wisdom among the leaders of our sanga remain alive to the truth and beautiful benevolence of siddhanta, rather than over time, descend into static ecclesiasty such as described by Srla Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, and witnessed repeatedly throughout the world.
dandavat-pranams to all. Jay Radhe, Jay Gurudev, Jay Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga
Thankyou Gour Govinda das prabhu for your excellent and useful complement (citing the Sri Slokamritam, which I was previously unaware of) to the original and superb article by Radhakanta prabhu; and many thanks also for the profound and insightful comments by Tirthapada and Dhananjaya prabhus. The quality of such reflections by committed and senior devotees in this sangha is such a powerful and reassuring testimony as to the solid foundation that Srila Gurudev did indeed establish, as continuing from what our Srila Prabhupada introduced.
My only hesitation is in regard to Gour Govinda’s almost closing phrase, ‘soon to be announced our next acarya’ – I’m not sure this idea is born out by either sastra or our experience. Although sometimes there is an official announcement/appointment by a ‘board,’ where their decision does indeed seem aligned with the spiritual realities, as for example with Srila Vamana Maharaj, we are more familiar with the acaryas being ‘announced’ by virtue of their own qualities and empowerment, by Krsna’s arrangement, which announcements are properly ‘heard’ only by those who are sincerely listening … eg Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, followed by his own various divine assistants (eg Srila Prabhupada, Srila Kesava Maharaj, etc) who established their missions according to his inner inspiration and empowerment irregardless of the votes and opinions of any official institution …
Meanwhile we must grow our own appreciation for the actual qualities and qualifications of Sri Guru by simultaneously reflecting on such sastric information as you and others have shared with us here, and by developing our own anxiety and greed to hear from Sri Guru and to have his association, to seek him in our hearts, to seek to prepare our hearts to receive him, to kick out those obstructions to our own vision in the form of egotism and its many indulging attendants.
One thing I am finding most pertinent and useful for my spiritual life, for my life in general, and that runs so contrary to my own habits and instincts for self-preservation, is Gurudev’s instruction not to criticise.
I think that because I have ever been such a critic, that this one instruction resonates more frequently and stronger than any other – so many times a day I become aware of this instruction and another ramification of it in my life, and the amazing thing is that just by remembering the instruction and reflecting on its relevance to my life in the moment, even without my actively trying to implement it, still, I feel my connection with Srila Gurudev, which for me is especially significant as I had hardly any time or actual physical association with him.
Anyway, what I would point out here is that there is a huge though perhaps not immediately obvious distinction between a) looking at various persons in a critical way to determine how they are likely un(der)-qualified to be guru and b) focussing on the qualities of both Guru (to direct our external vision) and disciple (to clarify and direct where we are seeing from) and seeing who our vision is then naturally attracted towards.
The first option might look like it is merely a reasoned approach to resolving our issue, but the danger is that if it is in fact sponsored by an ingrained habit to criticize, it cannot lead us to any conclusion other than its own materially conditioned and aparadha-laden viewpoint.
So that’s the thing – the questions being asked about guru and initiations are without doubt imperative – but the place that they are being asked from is also something we do well to become aware of, i.e. the quality of my own consciousness and motives, my own tendency to criticize or complain or blame.
Srila Prabhupada presented the class of ‘cheaters’ right along along with the ‘cheaters.’ These operate in sync with each other, supporting and fulfilling each other’s visions. If we want to be sure that our sangha will find suitable continuing guidance from the highest platform, whether such be from within or beyond our own ‘group,’ then perhaps our ability to discriminate spiritually will be best supported by our looking at our own vision and as best we can ridding it of whatever it is within us that would make us susceptible to being cheated. How are we already cheating ourselves, what deep-seated offences are we failing to recognize, and are instead protecting with spiritual-sounding justifications, such as the urge to criticize, to raise our own sense of self up by lowering others?
Again, thank you for your association, for encouraging and nourishing such valued discussions and thinking for us all
Aspiring to be of some value to Srila Gurudev and his mission
Jay Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
Please accept my most humble and respectful dandavats pranams at your sweet lotus feet Sripad BV Muni Maharaja.
All I said is backed on Guru, sastra and sadhu instructions, and also based on self humility and lack of self respect, based on the instruction of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself on the 3rd sloka of His Siksastakam.
Those who wants to be Guru are those who shouldn´t be Guru. Instead, the Guru will become self-evident and all the qualities of a Guru will shine through him/her. No Guru will ever discuss if he has the right to give initiation he will just give it.
Madhyama-adhikari is a very very high position, specially uttama-madhyama-adhikari, and who has the right to say if this or that devotee is a uttama-madhyama-adhikari if the only person able to see that is not on material world anymore? I know that in Madhurya Kadambini classes, Srila Gurudeva, by his mercy, gives us tools to open our heart and know our position. But this is not the case.
What I am saying is that no council would be needed if a uttama-madhyama-adhikari starts to preach. All devotees will flock to him regardless of his position. He will not say: “I am an uttama-madhyama-adhikari and therefore i have the right to give initiation, all come to me”. The process is quite simple, based on mutual attraction, on mercy. We can´t hide someone who is chanting the pure holy names, he will eventually become self-evident. There are no specific rules about it.
I know my Guruji, and I know if someone asked him about his qualities and position he would say: “I am the most wretched person on this earth and I don´t have a single good quality in me!”. But by his behavior, by his mercy and sakti we can see who he actually is, no mask, no proof is needed. All we have to do is stand in front of him.
Maharaja, I know that the cause of bhakti is the bhakti on the heart of madhyama-adhikari vaisnavas. What I am also saying is that in the same way is impossible to hide a genuine Guru, is also impossible to hide a true madhyama-adhikari vaisnava, but this vaisnava because of his humility would never say: “I am a madhyama-adhikari”
We should all consider ourselves a Kali-chela…
This is a time to chant hari-nama, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada spent years and years locked in his kutira chanting hari-nama before he went out to preach. Maybe we should do the same… And maybe, just maybe, by doing this we could all enter madhyama-adhikari and then, we all could give initiation…
May hari-nama never leave your lips
May the mercy of my Guruji never leave you alone
Please forgive my mosy heinous offences at your lotus feet
Radhe Radhe!!!
Dandavat Pranams Syamapada Prabhu,
Thank you for your lengthy response and so many quotes from sastra. You are obviously a person who thinks deeply and cares deeply about this topic as I do. This is the purpose of this forum, to hear each other’s realizations and hopefully learn from that and deepen our own faith.
Srila Gurudeva gave many instructions on initiation and he expressed on many occasions that HE WANTED the guru parampara to continue after his departure by his disciples initiating. That was not cheating. I asked him personally and he looked me in the eye and said, “Is my tongue forked”. I took that to mean that he was telling the truth. He actually wanted the initiations to start years before, but no one wanted to breach the typical vaisnava etiquette of not initiating in the presence of one’s guru.
It is true, as you state, that continuing the nama-hattas and hosting programs will do much to help continue the line. Still, initiations are an essential ingredient to continue the paramapara. If you try to stop this, then it is a disservice to Srila Gurudeva who wanted it and ordered it.
I agree with your point that one needs to be qualified, but it is not just the mahabhagavata and all the rest of us fallen rascals. There are many levels of vaisnavas, and until one reaches the madhyama stage, he cannot recognize all these levels, and therefore tends to classify all as ‘fallen’. Madhyama adhikari vaisnavas are not in the category of fallen as they are liberated souls according to Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva dharma. Of course being ‘liberated’ from material nature is not the highest platform, attaining Krsna prema is.
The type of sentiment that you are expressing is natural for someone who has just lost a very dear friend, their beloved Srila Gurudeva. To feel that others may be usurping the power of gurudeva by becoming gurus themselves may appear like gurudeva is being neglected.
It is always a ‘mixed bag’ as I have stated there will be many types of gurus. Some are lower class, some are medium and some will be high class. It is up to us to become advanced enough to know the difference and choose association wisely. When you use the term ‘bogus guru’ to refer to everyone other than Gurudeva it is not true or fair. Persons that Srila Gurudeva has personally asked to start initiating cannot be called ‘Bogus’. I caution you to be more open minded and see devotees in a more positive way. It is a difficult time for all of us, and there will be some mistakes made no doubt, still we have to work through our pain of separation from Gurudeva and try to remain positive in association with Vaisnavas.
Srila Gurudeva was a potent guru. Can he therefore not make other bona-fide gurus? To think that no one is bona-fide is an insult to Srila Gurudeva himself, thinking that he was not capable of making his disciples qualified after so many years of training.
I welcome your comments, as even points of contention spur on discussion that deepens understanding. Hare Krsna.
Jay Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
Jay Sri Sri Radha-Vinode Biharji!
Please please accept my most humble and respectful dandavats pranamas at your lotus feet Sriman Radhakanta dasa. Consider me a really bogus person.
Most respectful prabhu, I never said I was against the continuation of the parampara. The parampara will naturally continue regardless of our efforts.
Let me make myself clear…
Of course it´s Srila Gurudeva´s will that initiations continue to happen, for the benefit of all. Guruji says that a madhyama-adhikari vaisnava and specially an uttama-madhyama-adhikari does have qualifications to give initiations. But that doesen´t mean he will be a bona-fide Guru able to give us vraja bhakti. But he will be indeed an advanced vaisnava able to guide his ‘disciples’ in the absence of the pure devotee of the lord. In fact this respected vaisnava will give his ‘disciples’ and himself to the lotus feet of the first pure devotee that happens to appear in this material world.
But when you say that every madhyama-adhikari are qualified to initiate, you are conducting this sanga to the same position ISCKON now have. Guruji indeed says that if an unqualified devotee starts to give initiation he will fall from his position. What I am trying to say is if this rule is applied many unqualified devotees will start to give initiation regardless of his position, claiming himself to be a madhyama-adhikari. And therefore many devotees will fall from their positions and their bhakti will be damaged and so the sanga.
On the other hand, if initiation is forbidden to all no one will give initiations, even those who are qualified. But, a rupanuga raganuga uttama-madhyama-adhikari doesn´t need to follow the base rules we all follow, because here the rule that prevail is the rule of affection and attraction which are, in this case, much more relevant to turn a non-devotee into a devotee.
What you don´t seem to understand is that a real uttama-madhyama-adhikari would never willingly give initiation, but the people that really wants to receive initiation will be so affectionate to him that they will beg him to initiate them, and here we go. In my humble perception this is how the process should be done.
I hope I had cleared up your doubts regarding my point of view, all based on sastra, guru and sadhu instructions.
Please forgive any tiny offences I probably had commited at your lotus feet, and accept me as your own…
Radhe Radhe!
Dear Syamapada Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams. I agree with most of what you are saying. Let me respond to a few of your points that are unclear.
You recognize that Gurudeva has authorized his madhyama-adhikari disciples to initiate. Then you say, ‘that doesn’t mean he will be a bona-fide Guru able to give us Vraja Bhakti”. As there are many levels of Vaisnavas there are many levels of gurus. A madhyama adhikari is certainly bonafide, otherwise Srila Gurudeva would not have authorized them to initiate. Gurudeva is bonafide and those that follow his orders are bonafide. But what level of ‘bonafide’?
On the other hand, I agree with you, as I have also stated that only a person who has Vraja-bhakti can give it, so ultimately one has to take a guru, either diska or siksa who is a Vraja rasik uttama Vaisnava to get that. We agree there.
As Krsna states in Gita there are 3 levels of knowledge being presented there, confidential, more confidential and most confidential. In the same way there is bonafide, more bonafide and most bonafide. Bhaktivinode Thakur in his Javia Dharma states that a Vaisnava begins to practice and come to the platform of pure devotional service in the madhyama stage. So, they are pure devotees. But there is also pure, more pure and most pure. Certainly also Gurudeva has shown by his explanations on Brhad Bhagavatamrita. Prahlada Maharaja is a pure devotee and there are many more that are ‘more pure’ like Hanumanji, the Pandavas, Uddhava and finally the gopis. So, spiritual life is not black and white, it is a million shades of gray leading up to the whitest and purest stage found in Srimati Radhika, followed by her sakhis and the manjaris, etc.
It is convenient to try and see things in black and white, this is right and that is wrong, this person is pure and everyone else is fallen. But in reality, there are so many Vaisnavas who are capable of giving help to others, and it is all good. We should not diminish anyone from their service to Krsna. Instead we should strive ourselves for sadhu-sanga and when capable also help others who are less advanced than us. This is the loving lila of being a Vaisnava in this world. Without these kinds of exchanges between devotees, everything is dry. If one is capable of helping others by teaching them something in Krsna Consciousness or helping them become free from some of the suffering in this material world by giving them some spiritual guidance, but doesn’t do so – they are miserly, and ungrateful to their gurudeva for what he has given them. Those that have received some mercy from Gurudeva will naturally want to share that with others and compassionately help others. If we perpetually think that we are so fallen that we cannot do anything to preach or even initiate (if qualified) then this is a disservice to Gurudeva in the false covering of humility. Real humility means doing the needful and following Sri Guru’s orders, even at the risk of criticism of accepting some responsibility as a preacher or guru.
This is a big topic. I will stop here. You have inspired me to say so many things. Thank you. I hope you will understand my meaning and take the best from it. Wishing you well always. Hare Krsna.
Thanks and dandavats prabhu,
I have some recollection of discussions in the past ranking on kangaroos was all the rage in the sanga that who gives diksa must first have diksa, i.e, graduated the school of diksa. I thought your article could have been more complete if this was addressed. After all what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. One of the same devotees I once heard that talk from recently devotee mentioned to me that someone wanted to take initiation from him but he at least wanted him to get harinama from a real uttam so he made sure he got harinama from Gurudeva and that later he could give him diksa himself.
By the way, I am coming to Badger and really looking forward to seeing you there. You are coming yes?
Radhe Radhe
Dear Dhanajaya Prabhu,
Accept my pranams and appreciation for your very good points. Right on target! Your reply is exactly the type of dialogue and thoughtful response I was hoping to inspire. Thank you for sharing.
I agree with you about the importance of taking siksa from senior devotees at all stages of our bhakti as Sri Caitanya Caritamrita (M 22.83) confirms, “Krsna bhkati janma mula haya ‘sadhu-sanga’, krsna-prema janme teno punah mukhya anga” The root cause of Krsna bhakti is sadhu-sanga. Even after the birth of Krsna Prema sadhu-sanga remains an essential anga of bhakti. This means that even an uttama-adhikari (premi-bhakta) STILL takes sadhu sanga. Do Rupa and Rati manjari, the topmost manjaris, take sadhu-sanga in Vraja? They serve their Swamini under the shelter of Lalita sakhi and the other sakhis. So, certainly if THEY are serving under guidance, everyone else should, and if someone isn’t it means they are not qualified and they will not advance properly.
I especially appreciated your warning – “Even someone who lacks training and advancement sufficient to identify appropriate qualifications can easily observe disqualifications such as a tendency to criticize, politic, compete, control devotees and money, and/or lack control of the urges of the tongue, belly, or genitals, and get angry when one doesn’t get one’s way. It is sometimes confusing to see these disqualifications in conjunction with clear qualifications especially in brilliant charismatic teachers but we have seen that before and should not be confused by it. We shouldn’t criticize them for their disqualification even if we are certain we are not mistaken. We should just use our awareness to choose who to recommend newcomers to.” – Thank you for pointing this out. You are to the point but not offensive in that you conclude by saying that we don’t criticize anyone, but just recommend new persons to more qualified devotees.
Stay in the dialogue, Prabhu. Hare Krsna.
Hare Krishna Prabhus @ Diddis dandavats ,
Reading Radha kanta Prabhus Letter some points come to mind ;
One , the maha bhagavat adjusts his vision to the madhyam concecption to deal with conditioned souls on different levels …that maha bhagavat can be guru ,not the soul coming up through saddhana to the madhyama platform .please tell me in sastra where a madhyama adhikari on any level can be guru ?
Two,In Radhakants letter theres mention of madhyam ,madhyam ,madhyam there inumerable madhyams in srila gurudeves sanga ! .well i know of a hand full of madhyams on different levels in gurudeves near and dearest indian disciples but as far as us western devotees go can someone piont out to me where is a madhyam disciple ? and remember free from sixteenb types of anarthas , no oscilation of the mind (mind like a tranquil clear lake and therefore can enter into the beginings of real smaranam !) whos come out of the dark forest of material enjoyment and into the bright sunshine whos realized hes a spiritual spark (krishna das) transcendental to the gross and subtle bodys .Yeah this is rare what to speak of bhava bhakti
Three ,Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja when asked who can be guru kanistha , madhyam or uttama ? he replied ,please understand my words i say Premie bhakta ! so we know what that means ….that means someone who has attained vastu siddhi full spiritual body ,no blood and bone figure ! and what does that mean some who has come down on the order of Radharani from Goloka dharm
Four, where is it written in scriptures that a conditioned soul has to have 1, 2 ,or 3 or more mini gurus …pretend gurus before he gets a real one ? is there a shortage in the unlimited spiritual world ??? must be .
,Five,What benefit do you derive from having a bhogus guru ?who realy cannot give you anything (being that he cannot see krishna or himself ,ablind man in total darkness ! blind leading the blind both full into the ditch isnt it ?)also srila Gour govinda mahraja said that if you hear from a duplicious person youll also become duplicious …..he also said your real svarup will come out ! you can put a peacok feather on a crow baba ,but how long will it last ? if were pretending at all in spritual life we will be exposed…only a matter of when .Also if one is unqualified and he takes disciples , those lusty desires of those disciples will come to him and he will fall down . suffer from all kinds of bodily illnesses also some go mad also !
Six,If guru tattva becomes watered down and trampled on , then all other tattvas come under attack …and yes bhogas uppasiddanta creeps in ,as weve seen already in another institution No you say ! not possible !
Seven, The desire to be guru ,guru abhiman is that something that a spiritual aspirant should be cultivating in his heart ? i dont think so …what going to happen to someone who not qualified becomes guru ? his fat ego will get even fatter !!! and if pride enters into us then instead of becoming devotees and offering respect to one and all ! will become the opposite a demon …and now demand respect ! srila gurudeve has said that we should become insignificant ,nothing and nobody no reason i should be given any honor or respect ….in that way we chant hari nama in the core of our heart
Eight,Why do new devotees anywhere in the world need to stay inside our box (institution ) when there may be maha bhagavat association available over there in another box (institution ) remember what Srila gurudeve said ; you can have the society well have the consciosness !
Nine,Ive heard this argument that our line is mostly a siksa line ….but can you tell me which of our great acaryas has taken fake mantras from a bhogus pretend guru ? we shouldnt cheat innocent people by giving them a post dated check , an empty unrealized mantra …Oh in the future ill become realized ! maybe but what does the past tell us …intellectuals who are plenty ! always go up against mystics (who are inwardly realized ) and pursicute them ….because they become exposed in there presence and they feel threatened . and thats in every religious tradition .
Ten, Sri guru also gives vanchana (cheating mercy ) he knows the deep whispers of our hearts and so he may put us in a situation to bring out these hidden anarthas within our hearts and well come face to face with them so to speak .
Ive been expressing some of things here that have been on my mind , really if ive offended anyone its not my intention so please forgive this sinful dog .
premananda das
Dear Premananda Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams. Thank you for entering the dialogue. I can clearly see your perspective in establishing the importance of associating with a mahabhagavat Guru to obtain Vraja-bhakti, our goal in life. I also made this point in the article. Now I will respond to each of your other points one by one.
#1 – If you are a disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja then you certainly accept his statements as good as sastra. As a follower of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja you also know the sloka he liked to repeat often, ‘ha bhagavata pada vaisnavera stane’…meaning that the purport of sastra is made clear by associating with the person bhagavata. Having said that, Srila Narayana Maharaja himself has declared that his disciples who are madhyama can become guru, and certainly many are coming up due to sadhana-bhakti not coming down from an uttama stage. So, if you accept your Guru’s words you accept the importance of the madhyama guru to carry on the lineage. Secondly, the 1st sloka of Upadesamrita describes a madhyama adhikari Vasinava guru who can make disciples all over the world, for a madhyama has learned to control his mind and senses. This verse says nothing of the higher realizations in Krsna bhakti related to the uttama adhikari.
#2 – You mentioned that the madhyama adhikari will be free of the 16 types of anarthas, but this is not true. All the anarthas will not be completely eradicated in the madhyama stage but until one reaches beyond prema, the uttama stage and even not until one attains the direct association of the Lord Himself. If you make a discriminating study of the topic of anartha nivritti from Madhurya Kadambini you will find the 4 general types of anarthas (further divided into 4, so 16) are eradicated at different levels of spiritual advancement. Duskriti and Sukriti utta (sinful and pious karma) are eradicated between the level of bhajana kriya and asakti. Bhakti utta (anarthas arising due to the performance of bhakti) are eradicated between bhajana kriya and ruci. And finally Aparadha utta (arising from past offenses in nama and seva aparadha) will be eradicated from bhajana kriya and not completely until vastu siddhi, the prema stage, the higher stage when one meets the Lord in His manifest pastimes. So certainly anarthas are not totally cleared in the madhyama stage, but they are greatly minimized.
#3 – I have also heard directly from Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja’s lotus lips and many of our godbrothers also will attest to the very same thing you have stated regarding accepting a premi-bhakta guru. He was giving the highest standard, and he was also trying to help us distinguish himself from the other less realized gurus at that time. Just see the humility and selfless service of an advanced devotee insinuating his own high level of advancement in order for his disciples to develop faith in him. He wanted us to develop unalloyed faith in him. You have to take into context what he was saying according to time, place and circumstance and reconcile it with the statements of other maha bhagavats like Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.
#4 – You asked where is it stated in sastra that one can have a succession of gurus? Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Harinama Cintamani has stated, “Guru may be of two types: one who gives diksa with mantra and one who gives spiritual instruction. They should be considered equal in importance by one who wants to advance quickly. A person can accept only one diksa guru, but may have many siksa gurus, who give sambandha-jnana. Also in Sanatan Goswami’s Hari-bhakti vilasa it is stated that if one has accepted a guru that was not qualified due to improper knowledge on guru-tattva. Later, they can then accept a bonafide spiritual master and take real diksa from them, or take siksa from a higher class of Vaisnava.
#5 – I have addressed this point in my section ‘Who should not initiate?’ and agree with you that ‘bogus gurus (kangurus) or kanistha adhikaris’ should not be accepted as guru. However, one who has advanced sufficiently will have the eyes to see that madhyama adhikaris are not bogus or duplicitous or blind as you state. They are Vaisnavas and should be respected and honored according to their level of advancement, otherwise you will commit Vaisnava aparadha.
#6 – I agree with your point that guru-tattva is one of the basic and essential tattvas to understand as guru-nistha is the ‘backbone of bhakti’ and a fundamental tattva that other tattvas are based upon. Therefore we are engaged in these discussions to help each other fully understand this tattva.
#7 – An advanced madhyama adhikari cannot have ‘guru abhiman’, as he is practicing pure devotional service and engaging in seva for the pleasure of Krsna as described in the verse describing suddha-bhakti, ‘anyabhilasita sunyam’… You are again confusing the kanistha with the madhyama. Your language here is base and certainly cannot or should not be referring to a Vaisnava, who is full of good qualities. It can however be applied to a kanistha adhikari who has accepted the position of guru merely for name, fame adoration and distinction.
#8 – I agree with you that wherever there is advanced association we should take advantage of it, regardless of the institution or even lack of institution. ISKCON prevents their followers from doing this. However, most devotees in our sanga do not have this attitude and most will freely associate with other sadhus when they have the opportunity. You are certainly free to do that, and I do that as well. It is good that you have pointed this out, because there is always a threat that the institution can become too controlling.
#9 Please read BV Vaikhanas Maharaja’s recent post on B2B answering this question about taking diksa from a madhyama and the power therein. He quotes Srila Gurudeva verbatim and it proves that a sincere madhyama adhikari can also be a via-medium for Krsna’s divine mercy and helping disciples advance (Los Angeles, California: June 12, 2005 lecture).
#10 – This is another of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja’s favorite sayings. It is true that Sri Guru can apparently ‘cheat’ the disciple by awarding them their material desires. However, if Guru or Krsna fulfill a devotees material desires they do it in such a way that they will never desire them again . In other words even their so-called ‘cheating’ is an ultimate benediction.
Lastly, I do not believe you are a sinful dog. You are a devotee, like many of us who are striving to advance in bhakti in the association of other like-minded, soft hearted Vaisnavas. We may not be pandits nor are we ignorant, our duty therefore is simply to carry the sandals of our guru-varga on our head taking initiation into the mantra, ‘kirtaniya sada Hari’, always chanting the glories of Hari, Guru and Vaisnavas. So, let’s not be boastful or falsely humble but realize our own position and try to make advancement by associating with other devotees in a mood of loving cooperation.
I hope that my comments have been helpful in furthering a better understanding. I know it was helpful and purifying for me to think about all of this and express myself on the points you brought up. Hare Krsna.
To Radha Kanta Prabhu ,
Dandavats , thanks for addressing all my pionts of concern
Very nice …I realized while writeing my !0 pionts that this is maybe one facet of unlimited diamond of Sri guru tattva and now i have realized another facet and more realization from the other devotees contributions as well.
As this discussion goes on i feel dwarfed in and somewhat humbled in my understanding of guru tattva because it will go on forever ! To understand the heart of a vaishnava is very difficult ,and i dont know why he gives certain individual instructions and collective ones also ….he has that supreme vision ! all will be revealed in time .
I wasnt there when Srila gurudeve gave individuals orders to initiate ,and you have and others made it more clear for me as to Gurudeves wishes .Orders must be followed (as i keep reminding myself )and encourage each other to whatever orders have come down to us from our beloved Srila Gurudeve .
Srila Sridhar maharaja has said ; mind your own business and surrender yourself ! so thats whati try to move towards .
Thats me checking out of this discussion .
All the best,
Premananda das
Dear Premananda Prabhu,
My dandavat pranams. I happy that you are satisfied with my answers and that you are broadminded enough to see different angles of vision. Ultimately spiritual life is very subjective and personal, as Krsna deals with all of us according to our own unique relationship with Him. Therefore, there is no cookie cutter ‘right way’ for everyone. As you nicely describe, guru-tattva is like a diamond that is many faceted and according to the individual there will be slightly different perspectives of application. Although it is true that there is general siddhanta that is true for everyone, according to one’s level of advancement it may be applied slightly differently.
I look forward to meeting you in person sometime and having further dialogue. Best to you in developing your sadhana-bhakti. Please also give me your blessings to develop in Krsna-bhakti. Hare Krsna.
p.s If confused about this issue , read Guru Vandana by Srila Gour govinda Swami very amazing little book .
Harbol! Just listen, to Sir Ivan who just broke the charts with a club mix of the Mahamantra and see Rhade and Krishna working through the maya of this crazy world…love each other.
Jay Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
Jay Radha-Ramana Biharji!
Please accept my most humble dandavats pranams, and please, also forgive my words which sometimes maybe harsh.
Sometimes the ‘real’ Guru gives instructions that are to be followed and sometimes the ‘real’ Guru gives test to their disciples using ‘confusing’ instructions. All rupanuga Guru-varga did this, and also my sweet Guruji.
If someone can trace back all his instructions, one will see many ‘confusing’ instructions, depending on who was asking and who was listening. Also, one of the characteristics of a ‘real’ bona-fide Guru is that during his entrance into samadhi, the moment he is the top-most merciful creature on earth, he will completely satisfy the desires of his disciples. This is true because i´ve seen it.
Many many devotees asked Srila Gurudeva how things would be after he was gone, asking about initiations, about properties, about money, about who will be Guru after him. According to history, all those questions were asked by Srila Prabhupada´s disciples just before his samadhi. And just like ISCKON, many videos, letters, documents and testimonials appeared from somewhere with the signature or the expressed desire of the pure devotee just after his ‘disappearance’, dating many years back, before his entrance into samadhi. We forget that the pure devotee choose the right moment to disappear and is omniscient.
So Guruji made all his devotee´s desires come true in the form of these IPBS and BTI. But this is the real catch… We should not back this up, because those are against bhakti and saddhana. This is a test that Guruji left us with, and by promoting and accepting these we would be failing this test.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta left one organization (just like this one) before he entered into samadhi, the same did Srila Prabhupada, and now Srila Gurudeva. The left-behind-structure´s real purpose were to reveal the cheaters and self-appointed Gurus. All guru-varga came from respected vaisnava families with no attachment to those created structures at all. And no council or rule, or anything ‘made’ them Gurus. The ‘real’ bona-fide Guru is a Nitya-Siddha-Parikara and we all are Baddha-Jivas.
To back this up, I can point out the Amnaya-sutra, who tell us, baddha-jivas, about our anarthas.
maya-mugdhasya jivasya
jñeyo ´narthas catur-vidhah
hrd-daurbalyam caparadho
´sat-trsna tattva-vibhramah
“The anarthas of the living entities enchanted by maya are of four kinds: (1) illusion about one´s real identity, (2) hankering for that which is temporary, (3) offences; (4) weakness of the heart. They bind the living entities to the material world and entangle him in its miseries.”
sva-tattve para-tattve ca
sadhya-sadhana-tattvayoh
virodhi-visaye caiva
tattva-bhramas catur-vidhah
“The conditioned living entity is subject to four kinds of illusion: (1) jiva-svarupa-bhrama: the jiva thinks he himself is the enjoyer; (2) paratattva-bhrama: the inability to acertain who is the Absolute Truth; (3) sadhya-sadhana-bhrama: the inability of the jiva to acertain which is his goal among sense enjoyment, liberation and krsna-prema; and (4) bhajana-virodhi-visaya-bhrama: doctrines which contaminates the heart which are opposed to bhakti.”
aihikesvaisana para-
trikesu caisana ´subha
bhuti-vañcha mumuksa ca
hy asat-trnas catur-vidhah
“The four types of asat-trsna are: (1) desire for objects of this material world; (2) desire for heavenly pleasures; (3) desires for mystical powers and; (4) desire for liberaion.”
krsna-nama-svarupesu
tadiya-cit-kanesu ca
jñeya budha-ganair nityam
aparadhas catur-vidhah
“The four kinds of aparadha are: (1) offences to Krsna´s name; (2) offences to Krsna´s deity form; (3) offences to that which belongs to Krsna (Giriraja-Govardhana, the Ganga, the Yamuna, the dhama or the lotus feet of the devotees; and (4) offences to other living entities.”
tucchasaktih kutinati
matsaryam sva-pratisthata
hrd-daurbalyam budhaih sasvaj
jñeyam kila catur-vidham
“scholars consider hrdaya-daurbalya to be of four kinds (1) attachment to worthless objects; that is, objects unrelated to krsna; (2) hypocrisy and deceit; (3) envy upon seeing the prosperity of others; and (4) desire for prestige and position (pratistha).”
The siddhanta for those slokas can be found on the Bhajana-rahasya-vrtti by Srila Gurudeva pg 72 to pg 77 of the Bhajana-Rahasya book.
also I can support everything said above by Gour Govinda das and include a few of myself, also found on Slokamrtam.
p. 60: Bogus ‘Gurus’ are common but a real Guru is rare
“[Lord Siva to Parvati:] Many ‘Gurus’ take advantage of their disciples and plunder them. They exploit their disciples and use them to amass wealth, whereas a genuine Guru who can remove the material miseries of his disciples is very rare.”
It is useless to take shelter of a Guru who is not fully realised
“Taking shelter of a ‘Guru’ who has great learning of the Vedic Literature but who has not realised para-brahma (Krsna), is like keeping a barren cow who cannot give milk. It is useless labour and one does not achieve any real result.
p.62 A Guru should not initiate for prestige and material gain
“A sannyasi (Guru) must never present allurements of material benefits to attract disciples. He should never initiate unqualified disciples in order to expand the number of his followers for prestige and material gain. He should never unnecessarily read many books, nor should he lecture on scriptures like Srimad Bhagavatam as a way of making his livelihood. He must never attempt to increase material opulence unnecessarily. He must renounce over-endeavours for things that are beyond his means or which cannot be attained even at the expanse of considerable time and energy.”
In my humble point of view, based on what i´ve learned from my Guruji, no one should give initiation. No one is Guru. To give initiation without full realization of Krsna is a death trap to bhakti. If we may think “oh, I am qualified, I am a madhyama adhikari, and I can give initiation” then for sure we are not qualified, we are not madhyama-adhikari and we cannot give initiation. Preach the Krsna´s cousciousness is not the same thing to give initiation. We cannot grasp how serious this is and how lucky we are to have had such a bona fide Guru in this material world and yet we are comparing ourselves to the ‘real’ Guru. We are trying to take over his place, trying to take control of his buildings and lands, and trying to take out his disciples, and yet we discuss who should initiate? This is Guru-aparadha! No one is qualified to give any kind of initiation!
By guru-krpa he allowed some of his sannyasis to give hari-nama on his behalf, because he couldn´t be physically everywhere, but could be reached by phone. And I´ve met many devotees who took initiation by phone or by one or another sannyasi and when the devotee took again initiation by Srila Gurudeva himself, even his name changed. So, who we are to give even hari-nama initiation on his behalf without his physical presence to clear out our doubts about this or that devotee´s name? Can we do that? Take the responsability to give the ‘real’ hari-nama? Can we chant our rounds without aparadha, or even nama-abhasa? Are we in bhava or in Krsna-Prema?
We are so fallen that we can be fooled by false ‘Gurus’. We could never be able to put to test this or that ‘Guru-to-be’ because we can´t see the truth, we can´t see this or that vaisnava´s qualities on this or that devotee. We don´t choose the Guru, by his mercy the Guru chooses us. The Guru is one, and if he is not physically here anymore to give initiation, then initiation must stop! Because any initiation given by a bogus guru will be useless and meaningless. So we should wait the next acarya, so he can give initiation. Not us!
But we should not stop preaching, chanting, doing arcana, doing nama-hattas, receiving more advanced devotees at our home and serving them. Everything else must continue. But even the lands and building should be given back to their previous owners and if there is a temple on them, it´s by the owner´s mercy that the temple must be maintened or not. We should not put thing into legal terms, everything must be maintened by mercy not by obligation. We should be mercifull at each other! We are brothers and sisters and this alone should be enough!
Jaya Srila Gurudeva!
Hare Krishna Prabhus, Please accept my dandavat pranams! All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! All glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji!
Srila Gurudeva warned us that after His manifest pastimes we would be faced with a very difficult period. So do not expect an uttama Vaishnava to magically appear on the scene to guide us through these difficult times. Rather, surrender to His teachings and to the love and affection given by our Rupanuga guru-varga. Keep Them in the forefront and become Their dasanudasa. That will inspire everyone, old and new.
As to the question of initiation, Guru, Sadhu, Shastra have pointed the way forward as Radha-kanta das has nicely reiterated. We just need to follow Their instructions, which is what we presume the sanga’s leadership committees are deliberating on this topic as we speak. It is very wise of them to spend an appropriate amount of time deliberating this very important policy given the shortcomings we have witnessed
in other attempts to implement a vaishnava initiation policy.
Best wishes,
Haladhara dasa
Dear Radhakanta Prabhu,
This is a Wonderful presentation . It would be better if the real diksa would be more emphasized . Hare krsna .
Radhakanta prabhuji,
Dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga!
Thank you for your brilliant examination of this subject. I am confident this article alone could stand as the conclusive policy of the sanga.
At the risk of speaking out of school and being a fool I would like to add my thoughts on the topic. I have had this on my mind and you have inspired me to speak up.
Shouldn’t we all, including all the madhyama adhikaris that are qualified to be guru, still be seeking the harikatha and association of devotees more advanced then ourselves, and especially an uttam adikari if we can find him? Isn’t that our first responsibility? It sometimes appears that many senior devotees are more interested in being guru than in finding shelter from one more advanced than themselves. I think one way to know who is unmotivated by ego and the desire for followers is to see if they are openly taking shelter of someone more advanced or instead being like the GBC did and trying to obscure the uttam from their potential disciples.
Anyone who is considering taking disciples should be absolutely certain he or she is at least madhyama, and is under guidance of the most advanced devotee he or she can find. Perhaps it is appropriate to inquire of someone senior to one’s self beforehand to be sure one is not misjudging one’s own qualifications. Failing to do that it may fall to other senior devotees to caution those whose disqualifications are in their blind spots. But the caution must come from someone they respect and who is free of judgment or ego or it will certainly be misunderstood. Still there will be those whose words of caution are misplaced and those whose egos don’t let them hear appropriate words of caution. And inevitably there will be unqualified gurus in our sanga. I think this is probably already the case although I wouldn’t dare say with certainty. And so it will fall to all of us to do our best to keep inexperienced newcomers from making the same mistakes we did.
I think any of us with sufficient experience can plainly see devotees with positions of influence that may see themselves as guru or be seen by others as guru but are not firmly past the kanistha stage. Even someone who lacks training and advancement sufficient to identify appropriate qualifications can easily observe disqualifications such as a tendency to criticize, politic, compete, control devotees and money, and/or lack control of the urges of the tongue, belly, or genitals, and get angry when one doesn’t get one’s way. It is sometimes confusing to see these disqualifications in conjunction with clear qualifications especially in brilliant charismatic teachers but we have seen that before and should not be confused by it. We shouldn’t criticize them for their disqualification even if we are certain we are not mistaken. We should just use our awareness to choose who to recommend newcomers to.
Legislation cannot prevent these problems. Nothing can stop these problems. Only by teaching, practicing and awareness can we mitigate the problems to our best ability.
Please forgive any offenses.
Radhe Radhe
Aspiring to be of service to the vaisnava’s
Dhananjaya dasa
If there was a “like” button, I would have hit it.
well said
same here
Wonderful article Radhakanta prabhu ji.
Dandavat pranams. This is so inspiring, especially at a time when this topic is so prominently on our mind.
Another topic in this same category of “guru-tattva” I would welcome very much, is the question of “sisya-tattva” – and add to the discussion on how to be guru, the process of how to become a fit disciple, sisya.
We have new people coming to our programs here in Holland, and it’s challenging to answer questions as to who their Guru is now. And they’re asking!
All we can do is make an attempt at explaining the process of sincere prayer and surrender to Krishna and pray for His dearmost friend to come and find us, and accept us into his “seva-team“.
It is said, “When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”
Thanks again for your contribution.
I Pray to Be Your Servant, (IPBYS)
— Raghava Pandit das
An excellent presentation….Thankyou
Thank you so much Prabhuji for clearing up so many misconceptions in this wonderful, astute analysis. Especially the point that anyone who is on the Madhyama platform can initiate, regardless of ashram. Thank you for clarifying this so nicely and thoroughly.
Vaisnavasevabhilasi
Sita dasi
Many Thanks prabhu. Excellent and carefully documented article. Please let’s keep this topic and wisdom in the forefront for many years. With constant repartition then clarification, understanding and realization will come. Thanks for your generous time.
Hare Krsna.
Thank you for the good thought provoking article Radhakanta prabhu. Tirthapada prabhu; you mentioned in your comments that there are utamas around. Can you tell me who they are because being kanistha myself I’m not so good at identifying them. Dandavat pranams, Nityananda das
Nityananda prabhuji .. i know 1, my beloved Siksha Guru Sri Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj, he stay at his kalkata math, and is very dear and near to Gurudev.
Dandavats, Radha-kanta Prabhu,
Excellent thoughts on Guru-tattva.
I also received initiation from Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and received siksa from Srila Bhakti Raksaksa Sridhara Maharaja, and, of course, our beloved Srila Gurudeva, Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja. I would like to add a few of my own realizations and thoughts.
Srila Sridhara Maharaja gave many instructions to ISKCON in the earlier troubled years of ISKCON on Guru-tattva. I suggest everyone should read “Sri Guru and His Grace.” ISKCON did not follow many of them and as was predictable, trouble ensued.
Recently, during the Nabadvipa parikrama, I was going everyday after paying humble respects to Srila Gurudeva’s samadhi to Srila Srila Sridhara Maharaja’s samadhi. Then one day, as I was talking to Hari Charan Prabhu, one of the oldest disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, I was asked to leave the Math by a devotee sent by the present-acarya,
“Acarya Maharaja.” I was shocked. Of course, it did not stop me, I kept going back and talked to several devotees about it. To be brief, the battle is still raging on over whether he is fit to be the Acarya or not. But it made me reflect on our own present predicament.
Choosing one Guru to initiate presents a unique problem. And I totally agree that all sannyasis and senior devotees can initiate. But there is a responsibility that may become a burden on us if we are not careful. I think it is very important to stress that aspiring initiates should be recommended by local senior devotees. An uttama like Srila Gurudeva
can initiate whenever he likes, and ultimately that madhyam cannot be checked but advised that if you initiate that devotee, then where will he stay? Where will he go? Srila Gurudeva told me that if I wanted to please him, help his disciples. If I have no relationship with one of these devotees that comes and initiates a person, then leaves, what to do?
Frankly, in the last few years of Gurudeva’s presence, I as well as others have not been treated very affectionately by members of our group. Politics is inevitable when there is a society. I think that we all have inherited a great legacy from Srila Gurudeva, both diksa and siksa disciples. Above all else, moreso than even being sva-jatiya, “like-minded,” is snigdha, “affectionate,” to others. Helping each others service, not checking it, hindering it at the cost of “getting ahead.”
We can help Srila Gurudeva most by affection. It is not by theoretical “love.”
Practice it. Practice it. The urge to make disciples may arise in any of us, but are we honest to ourselves? Making 10,000 disciples is not the criterion of a guru. How many did Lokanatha Gosvami have? How about Gopala Bhatta? How about Jahnava Devi? The first question Gurudeva used to ask devotees was ‘How’s your bhajana?’ I left ISKCON and came to Srila Sridhara Maharaja out of affection. I left Sri Caitanya Saraswata Math and came to Srila Gurudeva out of affection. One who is doing his bhajana nicely will be affectionate. I am always on the look-out for that. I go where my heart carries me. There are pure Vaisnavas around, there are Uttamas around. Where is Gurudeva now? Gurudeva is everywhere, but especially in our hearts. I am sorry I cannot quote so many verses in this short space here, but Guru-tattva should be discussed everyday, openly amongst devotees. And a caveat to all those who want to initiate and also those who want to be initiated: Be eka-rasa, not bahu-rasa. Test your “Guru,” and let the “Guru” test you before you strike out on a relationship that will be the most important event of your life. And dandavats to all.
Dandavat Pranams Tirthapada Prabhu,
Senior devotees like you who have taken shelter of maha-bhagavats can lend much wisdom to the sanga. We need your sage advice, thank you for sharing your realizations. Hare Krsna.
Download ‘Sri Guru and His Grace’ here
http://www.scsmath.com/books/Sri_Guru_and_His_Grace.pdf
Thank you, such an important book. I have gained so much from reading and re-reading this book over the years…..
Thank you Tirthapad prabhu for your words of wisdom.
Dandavat Pranams
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva
Jai Sri Radhe
Dear All,
First I would like to thank Prabhu for this wonderful explanation of Guru Tattva.
Since joining Srila Gurudeva’s sanga I have always heard the point, ISKCON Guru’s can not be bona fide unless they are taking siksa from Srila Gurudeva or some other “1st class Vaishnava.”
I think that “shoe” now fits all in our sanga.
Srila Prabhupada makes this point also.
“A PURE DEVOTEE under the guidance of another experienced devotee can obtain all the results, even at present.”
SB 1.10.27 P Departure of Lord Krsna for Dvaraka
If we are not to be considered duplicitous, it is my humble suggestion that each person in our sanga who takes on the service of giving Diksa, fulfill Srila Prabhupada’s instruction by taking PERSONAL siksa from “another experienced devotee.”
Srila Prabhupada warns us.
However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress.
Madhya Lila 22.71
your servant
Isa das
If the devotee commits an offense at the feet of a Vaisnava while cultivating the creeper of devotional service in the material world, his offense is compared to a mad elephant that uproots the creeper and breaks it. In this way the leaves of the creeper are dried up.” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta)
So we should be alert..
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja
Dandavat Pranams Radhakanta das;
Excellent explanation of Guru tattva. I have just a few quotes from Sri Slokamritam which I have found that clearly reveals who is Sri Guru.
On page 27 Srila Gurudeva begins with a very clear statement. “The medium that connects us, the living entities, to Sri Krishna is Sri Guru, who bestows sambandha-jnana knowledge of our relationship with the Lord. Therefore Guru-tattva (the truth concerning Sri Guru and our relationship with him) is the foundation of all other tattvas. Without clearly realizing the utmost importance of Sri Guru, one will not be able to understand other tattvas properly or make much progress in bhakti.”
p. 29 ” The qualifications of Sri Guru is that (1) he has fully realized the Vedic Scriptures (sabda-brahma) and (2) the Supreme Absolute Truth (para-brahma), and (3) for whom the mundane world holds no charm whatsoever.”
p. 30 “One must “only” accept a Guru who has “fully” realized both Sastra and Krishna.”
p. 31 “Oh Uddhava! Know the acarya to be as good as Myself. He is My very svarupa (My expansion). At no time should one, out of envy, neglect or disrespect the Guru as an ordinary mortal, nor should he be considered to have any faults, because the Guru is the sum total of all the demigods.
p. 33 ” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada…’Can one worship Krishna without being under the guidance of Sri Guru? NEVER. Only by getting the favour of the most favoured is it possible to cultivate Krishna consciousness. When one is not under the guidance of the most favoured, one will not find anything favourable for the cultivation of Krishna consciousness or for the pursuit of Krishna’s happiness. Our only aim in life is to cultivate Krishna bhakti. This can only be done under the guidance or instruction of a pure devotee.’”
There are many more quotes. Of course Srila Gurudeva is describing an uttama bhakta. For me, over the years, I too have seen so many gurus from many camps. I have concluded that one certainly may benefit from this association or may be led astray, but one should not settle for anything less than an uttama rasika vaishnava as his shiksa guru. The reason being is that all lesser individuals will not be able to perform that magical surgery that is necessary to help us actually give up our attachment to this material world. This is indeed a very very subtle process requiring the expert talents of a highly trained guru. Others may assist in this process but the master surgeon is Sri Guru. Why is that? Is this just not another “process” we can learn by reading and imitating? Not at all. This is the most subtle of all activities. This goes beyond all the layers of the material energy from gross to the sublime. The last layer is the false ego. This is the most formidable barrier to realizing the transcendental realm. Only that individual who is not contaminated by the false ego can guide us past all the pitfalls that are waiting for us as we move up the ladder of spiritual life. So for what it is worth I recommend that we seek out and pray with all earnestness for that guru who has realized the pure self. Surely Sri Krishna, who is all merciful, will once again provide us with that guru. Just as He has done in the past. There really was never a break in the disciplic succession. From Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajana Keshava Maharaja, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Sridhar Swami, Srila Vamana Maharaja, Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja and soon to be announced our next acharya. All others certainly can and will help the conditioned souls but we require and demand the highly qualified rasika uttama Vaishnava. Then all is well. There will be no more confusion, no more arguments, no more politics, no more laws, no more resolutions, no more commitees, just the sublime recitation of pure hari katha.
In the service of Sri Guru;
Gour Govinda das
Thank you so much for sharing this
Awesome article!
I will try to remember to refer new people to this article, not only because it relates the siddhanta clearly and concisely, but Prabhuji’s personal experience as well.
Thanks much Radhakanta Prabhu.
Jaya Sri, Sri Guru and Gauranga
Dandavats pranams for this excellent explanation.
It helps me so much understand Guru-tattva and siksha- and diksha guru. Thank you
jaya Srila Gurudeva Ki jay Hoo
JAYA GURUDEVA
VERY GOOD THANK YOU
We had a cyber attack this morning and all of the comments from 3 days ago till now had gone missing/deleted. I had to manually post them back in and perhaps one or 2 I may have missed. My apologies for that. I am pretty sure I had posted 3 of yours. Correct?
Please let me know and I’ll look it up.
Believe me, it’s a nightmare when this kind of stuff happens, but unfortunately in cyber space there are people out there that don;t like us.
Pranams,
Raghava Pandit das