First of all I offer my innumerable dandavats pranams to my most worshipable, most merciful Spiritual Master, Param Pujyapada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Gurudeva.
I also offer my innumerable dandavats pranams to all the sincere devotees that read this presentation on Guru Tattva.
Especially I want to thank Sripad Chitraketu Prabhu, an initiated disciple of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, a siksa disciple of our beloved Gurudeva, and a wellwisher of our devotees. He has provided the original draft of this article. My respectful dandavats pranams are for him.
All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga and all Glories to the Supremely Merciful Sri Nityananda Prabhu.
The question is ‘Who can become a spiritual master?’
Obviously, it is not ideal that a neophyte devotee becomes a spiritual master. Anybody in their right mind would want to have a pure devotee as a spiritual master. Why? The answer is obvious: only a pure devotee spiritual master can give the most expert guidance. The guidance of a neophyte devotee will naturally be incomplete and insufficient, due to the imperfect vision of such a neophyte spiritual master.
A neophyte may become attracted to his female disciples, or he may be bewildered by monetary considerations. He may have insufficient knowledge of the scriptures or be motivated by false prestige, desire for worship and adoration. Even so-called advanced devotees fall prey to these obstacles in spiritual life, what to speak of neophyte devotees. If such a neophyte spiritual master falls down, he brings discredit upon his own spiritual master, on the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya in general, as well as causing a loss of faith amongst the general mass of devotees. Gradually devotees will become cynical about accepting a spiritual master, and they will lose faith even in the great Acharyas.
Some persons debate that in the absence of a great Acharya it is alright, or even necessary for a neophyte devotee to take on the role of spiritual master. First, however, we must check to be completely sure whether there are senior devotees who are actually qualified to be spiritual masters. Before the neophyte devotee jumps in, he must be fully convinced that he is not committing the offence of maryada-vyatikrama, or being insolent in front of a senior personality. Being a spiritual master is not a game for everyone to play. It is not something that everyone gets a turn at. “Now it’s my turn.” This is not the mentality with which one becomes a spiritual master. On the contrary, such a competitive mentality leads one to becoming a spiritual monster.
There are numerous references in scriptures to the importance of accepting a pure devotee as a spiritual master, such as in Sri Kapiladeva’s instructions on devotional service, Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Ch. 28, Text 2, wherein Sri Kapiladeva instructs His mother Devahuti.
Lord Kapiladeva says:
“One should execute his prescribed duties to the best of his ability and avoid performing duties not allotted to him. One should be satisfied with as much gain as he achieves by the grace of the Lord, and one should worship the lotus feet of a spiritual master.”
In the purport Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada writes:
“In this verse there are many important words which could be very elaborately explained, but we shall briefly discuss the important aspects of each. The final statement is atmavic-caranarcanam. Atma-vit means a self-realized soul or bona fide spiritual master. Unless one is self-realized and knows what his relationship with the Supersoul is, he cannot be a bona fide spiritual master. Here it is recommended that one should seek out a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him (arcanam), for by enquiring from and worshipping him one can learn spiritual activities.”
Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada clearly says here that one cannot be a spiritual master without being self-realized and knowing one’s relationship with the Supersoul. These are very high qualifications indeed, but Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur gives even higher qualifications for the spiritual master in the Gurvastakam, which we sing every day. According to the Sri Gurvastakam, the spiritual master is very expert in assisting the confidential maidservants of Srimati Radhika. A neophyte spiritual master obviously cannot claim such a qualification. To imagine that such prayers as in Sri Gurvastakam or Sri-guru-carana-padma, which is sung at guru-puja, can also be addressed to neophyte devotees is a great mistake. It is clear that such neophyte spiritual masters cannot be ranked on an equal level with genuine, bona fide atma-vits.
The Bhagavad-gita is also clear as to the qualification of the spiritual master: ‘he must have seen the truth’. Lord Krishna Himself does not recommend that we enquire from, or surrender to anyone with lesser qualifications than that:
tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah (Bg. 4.34)
Again in the scriptures, Lord Krishna Himself declares that
acaryam mam vijaniyan nava-manyeta karhicit
One should not treat the spiritual master as an ordinary human being for he is the substitute for the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Bhag.11.17.27). One should treat the spiritual master as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and never be envious of him or consider him to be an ordinary human being.
Conversely, an ordinary human being should not impersonate a bona fide spiritual master for such is merely cheating. If a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts. These subtle laws of nature must be considered for those who want to encourage neophyte devotees to become spiritual masters. To suggest that neophyte persons become spiritual masters is a grave mistake for the management of any spiritual society.
The spiritual master is the representative of Sri Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Can a representative of God be chosen by a mundane body made up of speculative individuals who are not self-realized? The answer to that is “No!” The representative of Sri Narayana is chosen by Sri Narayana Himself. Such is as it should be, and no amount of material wrangling will change things. God chooses his own representatives, and to imagine that a representative of God can be chosen by a mundane body is against Pure Theism.
Currently some persons maintain, so I am led to believe, that a rubber-stamp of approval is not actually a stamp of authorization but more of a “we have no objection”; in other words “take him at your own risk.” Such a stance is not only irresponsible, but also relativistic. In other words, if we are saying that the spiritual master may be an ordinary man, we can’t guarantee that you won’t be cheated. What then, we may ask, is the value of our stamp of approval? And, what has been the success rate in history of those who have been officially approved by other spiritual organizations? If your spiritual master steals your money or becomes entangled in material enjoyment, are you able to come back to the Management of the Spiritual Society for redress? No, because they conveniently sidestep any real responsibility.
This kind of guru-lottery makes a mockery of the divine Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya consisting of such great and inimitable spiritual personalities as the Six Goswamis, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Gaura Kishore Das Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakur Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivedanta Trivikrama Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Gosvami Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, the mere mention of whose names purifies one’s very existence.
I shall keep it brief but there is sufficient scriptural evidence to discard the ‘we have no objection’ standpoint, which is evasive and unclear. This type of statement indicates that there is no foundation. Our Acharyas often make it clear that institutionalized spiritual masters, who become spiritual masters on the basis of convention alone, such as Sukracarya, should be rejected in favor of genuine self-realized souls. If anyone happens to be in the unfortunate position of having been approved without possessing the requisite qualifications, my suggestion is as follows: don’t try to misdirect your students that you are what you are not, and refer them to the expert guidance and instruction of those who are genuinely qualified. Otherwise, your destiny will definitely be to hit the ground, which is Krishna’s supreme mercy upon you, since the ground is the most sobering place to be.
To all would-be gurus, please remember and realize the following advice from scripture:
gurur na sa syat sva-jano na sa syat
pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat
daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syan
na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum
One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master… (Bhag.5.5.18)
Caitanya Caritamrta Adilila 7.115 In this connection the Padma Purana states, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati-buddhih: “One who considers the arca-murti, the worshipable Deity of Lord Visnu, to be stone, THE SPIRITUAL MASTER TO BE AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING, and a Vaisnava to belong to a particular caste or creed, is possessed of HELLISH INTELLIGENCE.” One who follows such conclusions is doomed.
My intention is to share with you the concerns of many devotees. Sripad Chitraketu prabhu has kindly provided his help. If, after reading the contents you feel that there is any benefit for your spiritual life, all credit goes to him and to our Spiritual Guardians. If any of you feel offended, I sincerely beg forgiveness for this and take all blame.
Aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa
Haribol dandavats pranams to all of you , I have no experience in the sanga, I m a new devotee here but I have a lot of experience in Isckon, my humble advice is that you have to take a quick elastic desicion and then wait and see what happen and act according with that. Be sincere with your selves, no one of you are perfect uttamas, so, no one of you are going to take a perfect decision, even if any of you is or are perfect you don t know who he/she/they is or are because he/ she/they could not appear to be perfect and so his/her/their oppinion are not going to be taken as perfect. Krishna is Kala(Time)and He is going to reveal the Truth, take some practical, imperfect humble decision for the welfare of every one without fight between each other. There are arguments for a way and for the other way, if you are not sthita dhir munis perhaps you are partially or totally wrong
, who really know? so , take a temporal humble decision with love between each other without burning politics. There are always another opportunity for search the perfection. Sorry if anyone feel offended for my words, sorry for my imperfect English too.
your servant
cm
as vaikhanas maharaj wrote, its not a fight, not a bad discussion, its a very good manner to reveal our thoughts, its a kind of afection to our Guru Maharaj, to help his mission to continue as he was here … its a very good to share our ideas and try to help one wich other with education nad respect, thats why this forum was made. its positive. As Guru Maharaj advice us many times, no one here think are uttama, if u read the coments u will see that is hard to find madhyama adhikaris ,,, it was our grand fortune that Gurudev showed us who is a uttama giving a example of behavior himself.
just today i receive um email, devotee was saying that many devotees, even sanyassis think that may be the earth dont have any pure devotee- Maha-bhagavata living here at this moment. So i want to share the words of jagad Guru B.S.Thakur Prabhupad. It was published at our “The true conception of Sri Guru Tattva.” page 2
“This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today with out any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say : “There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will be there be any in the future, its an atheistic opinion.” S.B.S.Thakur
All glories to Srila Gurudeva and all the vaisnavas.
I have been reading the different articles since the departure of Srila Gurudeva concerning initiations, IPBYS, Ideal Outcomes etc. all the while trying to stay aloof. But there is something I would like to get off my heart. First of all I have to admit that I’ve been kind of distant from the math since 2004 – 2005 mainly because a lot of things during my last kartika parikrama reminded me too much of the ISKCON I grew up in and kind of scared me. At the time there seemed to be a lot of politics going on between the sanyassis, culminating in the departure of at least two of them. Some might say that it is just my lack of sukriti which is probably true. I was attracted to Srila Gurudeva, back in 1997 because I really felt that he was presenting a non diluted, non sectarian bhakti yoga. The importance was not some institution but devotional service and the association of devotees – particularly of highly qualified rasika bhaktas. If there is one around then you run to him, despite institutions or whatever. Reading the article on initiations with some saying only Indian sanyassis are qualified, some mentioning names, others being disqualified etc etc I feel like I’m reliving ISKCON. It makes me wonder if it is necessary to create another institution where we’re constantly being asked to donate for some building or project. Now we’re talking about the 7 habits of higly effective people. I remember classes where it was said that we don’t read those books, we go to the school of Gaura Kishora dasa babaji, of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, of Srila Prabhupada. Reiki, shiatsu was ridiculed, setting up stalls during programs was nonsense and a waste of time. I heard Srila Gurudeva say in a class in Wales to burn the gurukulas and temples. I don’t believe that the mission of Mahaprabhu, Prabhupada or Gurudeva is tied to institutions, buildings or book trusts. History has shown us that ultimately these things tend to create institutions rife with politics and fall downs. Why are we discussing who is pure enough to initiate and who isn’t ? Are we qualified to do this ? I’ve seen it in ISKCON and most of the time, if not always, devotees end up frustrated when the person who was elevated “falls down”. I believe that as I heard from Srila Gour Govinda maharaja and from Srila Gurudeva, the vaisnava who is qualified is self effulgent. Why create another society with rules and laws and GBCs and committees who decide who is qualified to initiate or take sanyass ? Who can decide who is qualified ? Is it not that we choose according to our likes and dislikes, based on our material senses ? So how can we say so and so is the most qualified because he/she did this service or has been with Srila Gurudeva for X amount of years. Some of the devotees who had the most physical association with Srila Prabhupada, who did amazing things for ISKCON also created the greatest disturbance. Is it healthy for our spiritual lifes and for those whom we elevate, with our imperfect senses, to prema or bhava ? I have seen so many “pure devotees” and “gurus” fall. I believe that all those in the movement had a responsibility in it, not just the ones who fell. Because from the moment that we put them all the way up there with the best based on our imperfect senses this is bound to happen. If you want to create an institution that is going to actively propagate Srila Gurudeva mission maybe it should be accepted that, just like in ISKCON, certain devotees will initiate even if they are not on the stage of bhava or prema – but it should be understood that we should still seek out the association of highly qualified bhaktas who may be outside our math. I wonder (I admit with my imperfect senses) if it would be more honest and less destructive in the long run to admit that all those who initiate are not necessarily on the stage of pure bhakti but are there to bring us into the sampradaya. Because I believe that ultimately there will be fall downs – it happened with the original Gaudiya Math, ISKCON and already in our sanga too. I remember as kid I was told that Srila Prabhupada said not to be amazed at those who leave but rather at those who stay.
Please dont take offense at what I have expressed – I’m expressing this because I feel concerned and I guess a bit confused since Srila Gurudeva’s departure.
with respects
govinda dasa
oh, nice Govinda prabhu … i also was atracted to Srila Gurudev because he was not a institution man as he frequently told to all … he always told “I want to built a temple in your hearts” i also dont agree with many petitions of donations like in other institutions, even if the money are spendly rightly it will sound that we are doing what anothers did and we know the results very well …. also agree that we should run to pure devotees only, thats why i wrote here out of my arrogance, that we should know everyone we meet and wish goods that Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Goswami Maharaj is a pure devotee consacrated by the words of anothers Mahabhagavatas like Gurudev, Santa Goswami, Madhav Goswami and Puri Goswami. We are all the same family, and i think if there is a maha bhagavata in another math, what the dificult to say who he is or indicate Him to iniciations? … some one told me thats by the dificult to acept anothers superiority, dont know ..
“It makes me wonder if it is necessary to create another institution where we’re constantly being asked to donate for some building or project”
SINCERITY QUALIFIES ONE TO MEET SAD GURU.
FROM WHATEVER POSITION YOU ARE IN, TRY TO BE IN THE GOOD ASSOCIATION OF PURE VAISNAVAS. SRI KRSNA WILL ARRANGE THIS IF YOU PRAY FROM THE CORE OF YOUR HEART. HE WILL SEND YOUR GURUDEV TO YOUR DOOR.
YOU CANNOT SEARCH FOR A GURU. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO RECOGNIZE HIS QUALIFICATIONS.
IN MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF BIRTHS YOU CANNOT KNOW THIS ON YOUR OWN, BUT KRSNA WILL MERCIFULLY SEND A QUALIFIED GURU IF YOU ARE SINCERELY DESIRING THIS.
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, 15 February 2004
Dandavat Pranams to all devotees!
I just sent another reply (to his reply) to Brajanath prabhu.(Please read it if you have time)
Now I’m replying to Narahari das, Hamish and Baladev das: I see that there was a slight misunderstanding regarding what I wrote last time. First of all I saw all names as spiritual names,so I took it for granted that everyone was initiated. SORRY for that.
Secondly, somebody suggested that I may be trying to repress others or to make them feel guilty for expressing their feelings about initiations and about the sannyasis Gurudev left with that order. BUT, I meant something else: what I meant was that it doesn’t seem very valuable (praiseworthy—sorry, I’m missing the exact word) for us aspiring devotees to have DOUBTS about these sannyasis, DOUBTS here meaning to QUESTION or even to SUSPECT in any way that they are doing this (initiating, whether now or before) for ulterior motives, like desire for prestige, followers, etc. If Gurudev himself said …”I have no doubts about these sannyasis…”,admitting that they are not uttama bhaktas, still he’s saying that they can do the job…They can take the first step in saving the drowning jivas, they can give them a hand and pull them out of the ocean. Is there something bad about this??? I gave the example to Brajanath prabhu, if you see a man drowning in a river, and your boat is not a motor boat, will you say “No, I’m sorry, my boat is only wooden, wait for the motor boat to come…”? Or will you be moved by compassion and try to save them? Gurudev is sending them, so there must be something good in this. It cannot be in vain. Many will come through them to the Sankirtan Movement of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and when Krsna desires he will manifest the Sad Guru, it can be one of them,any of them, Lord Nityananda can put his shakti in any or all of them if he wishes, in no time. Please PRAY for more faith to come.
I did not mean that you should not have some doubts about your own initiation, when to have it, by whom, how, etc. this is natural. I did not mean that at all. Here is the answer given by Srila Gurudev himself: PRAY and WEEP… to nitya siddha guru, like Gurudev, Svami Maharaja, Gaura Govinda Maharaja,Srila Sridhara Maharaja,etc. wherever your faith guides you, and to LOrd Nityananda, you will receive the answer in no time. I will put these words of Gurudev immediately after this.- PLEASE READ GURUDEV’S WORDS, here and in that Darsan of Vrindavan, Nov.10, 2007.
Aspiring servant,
Krsna Kamini dasi
dandavats pranams dear Krsna Kamini didi, all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga
Wow, you have some far out realizations. Thank you for sharing these with us. According to your analogy very soon we will see that the standards need to be adjusted again for Kali Yuga is advancing rapidly.
I see it happening right in front of us: persons are drowning and the life guard is swimming up to them handing a towel; next the life guard is trying to swim back to the shore holding on to the towel, pulling the drowning persons.
Crunchhhh, the drowning persons pull the lifeguard with them under the water; a fierce water battle continues but the life guard is very brave and does not let go for he really, sincerely desires to save the drowning persons. Unfortunately, both the life guard and the drowning persons start to go under. No problem, more life guards are eagerly waiting on the shore to jump in and hand over towels. They are convinced that they are expert swimmers. The Kali Yuga whirlpool caused by the drowning persons is very very vigilant and dangerously strong. The good fortune is that we have such brave life guards…….
By the way, just a small detail: I have never observed that Srila Gurudeva lowers the standard for the process of pure bhakti. He never, ever compromises the conclusions of Bhakti. The opposite is true; he has come to establish the authenticity of Pure Vraja Bhakti and point out who are the Kali Chelas.
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa
Jay Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga Jaya Srila Gurudeva
“Svami Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada) also delayed 11 years to receive initiation and many years to come to the West. And when he came he started preaching to chant 64 rounds of Hare Krsna mahamantra; after seeing the condition of Westerners he had to reduce it to 32 and soon to 16, as a minimum”
Ramsradha Prabhu, disciple of Bhaktivedanta Svami (Indian one) told me that on his harinam iniciation he was requested to chant 4 rounds of japa, not even 16 rounds.
So I am not sure about any minimum of rounds….
Dandavats Das Prabhuji, well your friend Ramsradha must have been one of the exceptions. I joined this mission in Srila Prabhupada’s Boston temple in 1976,and that was the set rule (minimum 16 rounds a day).But the pure devotee can make exceptions and adjustments according to time and circumstance. And his changes are fully approved by Krsna.
(I confirmed this with an advanced disciple of Srila Sridhara Maharaja.)
Jay Sri Guru!
may be in some speacial cases Gurudev told some other thing, but always Gurudev use to say for brahmana minimum 64 rounds daily. He came to preach pure devotion without any deviation as brajanath prabhu told.
Yes, Gurudev made some concessions and adjustments in individual cases.(You can inquire around, who of his disciples was told to chant 64 rounds at the time of his initiaton and who was told to start with less number of rounds…) But of course that doesn’t mean he ‘deviated’ from Pure Bhakti. NEVER!
That’s why he chose the name “International Pure Bhakti Yoga society” for his society, not for attracting seekers.
Jay Sri Gurudev!!!
to start ok, but Gurudev told milions times the ideal is 64 …… for those have diksha …
Dandavat Pranams
“Now Gurudev had to reduce it even more. I personally heard his classes in Mathura (in 19993-6),he usually said “Chant Harinam, no less than 1 lakh (64 rounds); after arriving in the West he was bound to change to 16 rounds also, and later he did not demand that even, for Harinam Initiation, but only for Diksa, otherwise almost everyone ran away. This is the advancement of Kali Yuga”
Srila Gurudeva had to do concessions otherwise he would not be able to do anything. He came to the West to give all of us bhakti sukrti. That is all. He knew that without sadhu sanga nobody can get a taste to chant 64, 32, 16, 4 or less rounds for long. I know some devotess who were chanting 64 rounds sometime in the past
Myself, I am completely fallen, very busy working and so on. My wife works from 7am till 7pm, and we having 2 small children, house and so on. No time to meet devotess(where to meet them? no temples) or chant. So what is your advice for me?
fallen servant
When a house holder told this same thing to B.B.Tirtha Goswami, Divine Grace replied:
“How many times u take your lunch every day? How many baths u take every day? How much time u spend with childrens etc..? Why u do that? Because u have realized that its a important things to do. When u realize the importance of the bhakti yoga practice, u will have time to do.”
My advice is Gurudev’s advice…”PRAY and WEEP from the core of your heart”…or Srila Vamana Maharaja’s advice…
“CHANT and WEEP”…You can choose.
According to your sincerity Krsna will answer your prayers.
(Please read Gurudev’s words in Kuala Lumpur,2004–further up).
kk dasi
From Martin A.Lewis(Raghavendu das)facebook post:
[A Remembrance from Madhavananda Das.]
In America in 1993 a senior devotee came to see Gour Govinda Maharaja. He had a question. “Maharaja I’ve been preaching for a long time in this area, and some senior devotees are encouraging me to acc…ept disciples. I wasn’t actually thinking about doing it, as I’m not really qualified, but on the other hand it would encourage some of the people that I’ve been preaching to. So, my question for you is; what is the minimum qualification for being a guru?”
Gour Govinda Maharaja smiled and said, “The minimum qualification is that when you chant japa, nothing else comes into your mind except for Krishna.”
When he heard this, the devotee visibly chocked a little and said, “Um, uh that is a very high qualification. What is the minimum?
Gour Govinda Maharaja, laughed and said, “This is the minimum. If you are not on that platform then you may fall down.”
http://www.facebook.com/notes/sri-srimad-gour-govinda-swami/qualification-for-guru/387332798279
Devotee: How does one recognize a sadhu?
Gour Govinda Swami: Cry before Krishna. Only He can help you to find a sadhu. You can’t recognize a sadhu. You have no vision to see the sadhu. If you try by yourself to recognize sadhu, then you will be cheated. If you are serious, then cry before Him. “O Krishna! I am your servant!”
ay nanda-tanuja kinkaram
patitam mam visame bhavambudhau
krpaya tava pada-pankaja-
stita-dhuli-sadrsam vicintaya
Mahaprabhu has taught us this. This is crying before Krishna. “O nanda-tanuja, son of Nanda Maharaja, I am your kinkara, your sevant. Somehow or other I am fallen here in this dreadful ocen of material existence and I have been drowning from time immemorial. But I want to serve you. How can I serve you? How can I become a speck of dust at Your lotus feet? Please help me.” Just cry. Without the help of sadhu you cannot approach Krishna. You can’t utter Krishna’s name. When you cry like that, Krishna is there in your heart as paramatma. He will say, “Oh now he is crying for Me.” Then he makes an arrangement.
This is the proper way. If by your own effort you try to recognize a sadhu, you will be cheated. You can’t see a sadhu. You have no vision at all. You see only all outward, external things. You can’t see the real thing. There are many persons who are only outwardly sadhus. You will be enchanted by their external activities: “Oh, he is a great sadhu! Yes, he is producing gold!” You will be cheated.
You can’t get a real sadhu [in this way]. A real sadhu is one who is competely absorbed in Krishna, day and night, twenty-four hours. He has gotten Krishna. He is with Krishna. He can give you Krishna. You can’t see him. You have no vision. Only you can cry for Krishna from the core of your heart. This is not an external cry. It is internal. Then Krishna, who is in your heart, will see that you are crying and he will help you. He will make arrangement for you to meet such a sadhu. That is the arrangement of Krishna. When you meet such a person you will feel some spontaneous attraction from the core of your heart. That attraction is the proof.
Devotee: To meet a sadhu is so rare. How can one get the opportunity?
Gour Govinda Swami: It’s a fact that it is rare, but if you are really crying for it then Krishna can make an arrangement. It is impossible for you, but nothing is impossible for Krishna.
Thanks and dandavats Brajanath prabhu,
Yes, this is so much fact.
If we rely on our own limited vision to try to see Guru-Sadhu, we will be cheated and mislead. Only by crying sincerely will Krishna bring us to the shelter of pure sadhu-guru.
We are not dristi (observer), but drista (observed). Thanks for these reminders.
Jai Guru-Gaura.
Haribol
Yours in seva,
Raghava Pandit das
TO ALL DEVOTEES in general, and especially those who are doubting in any way, (Narahari das, Baladev das, Hamish das, etc.,etc.)… why some sannyasis started giving initiations immediately after Gurudev disappeared from our vision, or EVEN BEFORE, when Gurudev was ALREADY in his manifest form.
Perhaps you did not read the DARSAN WHERE GURUDEV ORDERED THEM TO DO SO, namely…the Darsan called “BE LIKE ME”,sent out by BTB on March 3, under the title “Holland Sanga Devotee Children” (Please OPEN that,look inside for the next title and please take time to READ it).
There Gurudev clearly said:
“VERY SOON I WILL TELL MY PREACHERS who are preaching in different areas,that I WILL NOT GO TO THOSE AREAS TO INITIATE, SO THEY SHOULD GIVE HARINAMA AND ALSO DIKSA.”
“I HAVE NO DOUBT ABOUT THESE SANNYASIS….
Again… “I HAVE SAID THIS FOR THESE SANNYASIS, THAT AFTER SOME TIME, IN MY LIFETIME I AM ALLOWING THEM TO INITIATE.”
What are they doing? They are faithfully following Gurudev’s order. Do you see something bad in that? There are many histories of faithful devotees who practically gave up their lives to obey the order of their Gurudev, especially faithful disciples, starting with Krsna and Balarama, who spent the whole night in the forest under heavy rain and did not return until completing the difficult task given by their guru. Besides Aruni, Kuresh, etc.and many others, one of them became blind even, but never gave up. We also have examples in the lives of Gurudev, Srila Vamana Maharaja, Paramgurudev…
Again I’m begging you to not see fault in them, better try to see Gurudev’s idea in this Darsan and the one that Vaikhanas Maharaja has recently posted. Both are very clear. This will lead to harmony and unity in our sanga and will give real happiness to Gurudev.
It’s a matter of FAITH in Gurudev’s words and orders. And if you don’t comprehend at all please consult with those sannyasis themselves, or CHANT more and you will gradually understand.(This was Gurudev’s advice when someone could not understand his explanations)…
Please don’t take offence. I’m very proud, so please forgive me.
Dina Krsna Kamini
Haribolo Krsna Kamini didi,
since you mentioned my name as one out of the many doubters
I feel inspired to write. I appreciate your concern and your
suggestion to chant more and consult with senior vaisnavas
(which I`m doing by the way and even they have concerns and doubts like Brajanath Prabhu). I think it is not a problem
to have doubts, but it is a real problem to make one feel
guilty to freely express it. I´m not saying that you are doing that, but I sense a tendency in that direction, which is in no way helpful for a sane discussion. Look how wonderful it is to discuss this topic and how much there is to learn for all on different levels.
I came from a “pure guru” in Iskcon and also in our sanga I took shelter siksawise from one who many considered very qualified and even Gurudeva encouraged me
to serve him. After his falldown many senior disciple of
Srila Prabupada came to me and said to me, that they have known it before, that he has cheated me. I never felt cheated, but of course I had a faith crisis which is somehow still going on in certain way.
So I humbly ask you to be patient with me and others as well for being attentive from whom to take siksa/diksa
because it is not something which would not have in any way a deep impact.
And even when Gurudeva is giving his full support and recommendation , this gives us not allowences to be blind followers who are not able to think for themselves.
ys Narahari das
dandavats pranams dear Krsna Kamini didi, all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga
I also wish to share some things with you to help us understand that to ‘give initiation’ is not such an easy service.
In 2005 Srila Gurudeva ordered 2 of his sannyasis to give initiation. They had called Srila Gurudeva to introduce a few new devotees and recommended to/requested Srila Gurudeva to give them initiation. Srila Gurudeva’s reply was that they – 2 sannyasis – are qualified and should give them selves initiation to new persons.
What these 2 sannyasis did or not, I cannot say but by the end of 2005 both of them had given up sannyasa ashram.
Srila Gurudeva was requested by his own Gurumaharaja to become the Acharya of the mission – which automatically implies to start giving initiation. What was Srila Gurudeva’s reaction to this? Do you know? Why he did not accept this request at that time?
Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Gosvami Maharaja repeatedly requested Srila Gurudeva to start giving initiation. Why did Srila Gurudeva wait 17 years, till 1985 to follow this?
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa
just this week i heard Gurudev saying: “Yes, iam very trick, to be in Gaudiya Math u must be tricky”
when i was in Keshavji Gaudiya Math mathura prabhuji also told me: “Oh my friend, Gurudev is very tricky, very very tricky.”
i believe that we have some qualified madhyama adhikaris, but Srila Sridhar Maharaj say: “Its not impossible that madhyama adhikaris fall down, and if its happen, very bad for the disciple.”
and about Gurudev asking them to give initiation, as Suddhadvaiti maharaj told me, western devotees asked Gurudev why he was saying like that, Gurudev reply: “Because i know some sanyassis want be a Guru.”
and in guru-tattva we learn that a real Guru never want to be a Guru, because he always want to be a eternal servaint of the foot dust of His bona fide Guru he is already Guru. many things to say, no time …
Jay Gurudev!!!!!!!!!
Jaya Srila Gurudev!
Dandavat Pranams Brajanath Prabhu,
Regarding your E-mail to me, I agree with most of what you say, but regarding your question why Gurudev took so many years to start initiating,the Indian sannyasis lived with him for so many years, and so did you, maybe they or you know his internal reasons.
I only know this: that “times are a-changing” drastically. Svami Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada) also delayed 11 years to receive initiation and many years to come to the West. And when he came he started preaching to chant 64 rounds of Hare Krsna mahamantra; after seeing the condition of Westerners he had to reduce it to 32 and soon to 16, as a minimum. Now Gurudev had to reduce it even more. I personally heard his classes in Mathura (in 19993-6),he usually said “Chant Harinam, no less than 1 lakh (64 rounds); after arriving in the West he was bound to change to 16 rounds also, and later he did not demand that even, for Harinam Initiation, but only for Diksa, otherwise almost everyone ran away. This is the advancement of Kali Yuga. Things have to be changed according to time and audience. Another drastic change I heard it directly from Gurudev’s words was that in those beginning years he would say…”first realize, then go to preach.” In the last years he changed to…”First preach, then realization will come.” This is a major change, isn’t it? In other words he saw the condition of the world in such great urgency…for the jivas to be saved that he had to lower the standards. Perhaps that’s the reason he’s sending these madhyama adhikari sannyasis out to preach in spite of not being at the most desirable state of uttama bhaktas or sadhana siddhas or nitya siddhas. Maybe the devotees can think of this, as a possibility at least. If you’re going on a wooden boat and see a bunch of people drowning and crying for help, will you say “wait, very soon a motor boat is coming, my boat is not so good”?… if they continue crying and calling out desperately, will you take them? I think it would be good to consider these things and find out why Gurudev gave that order. Did he trick us all and return to Goloka Vrindavan very happily and laughing at our fallen condition? Or is it better to have full faith in the words of the Sad Guru?
(Lately I heard Guru nistha means that…full fath in the guru…I don’t know it myself, I had to hear it in an old tape of Gurudev’s)
Dandavats again to all,
Fallen Krsna Kamini
Haribol Krsna Kamina Didi,
Freedom of expression when one is concerned is vital. Concern about the future is a natural anxiety for everyone at this point. To inhibit devotees from discussing their concerns and asking questions does not help them. Most devotees are scattered world-wide and many are very isolated, struggling alone, without the benefit of such association. If someone feels strongly in their faith and they have received the benefit of inititation, then they need to be very, very patient with those who have not received such benefit whilst they make choices. We are not shopping here for something, we are talking about committment to a person one chooses for guru. Try to place yourself in other peoples shoes for a moment and see how that feels. Otherwise it all becomes exclusive and how is that Bhakti?
Dear Hamish,
I hope you read my reply to your letter and other letters I received…there was a slight misunderstanding between us. Please read my reply–further up, almost at the top.
Yes, I AM putting myself in others’shoes, and I see no fault in new devotees being concerned about their future in spiritual life, especially about who their gurudev is going to be. Please read Gurudev’s words of advice in this regard. It’s also further up (almost at the top); I copied it from Rays of the Harmonist. It’s called “SINCERITY QUALIFIES ONE TO MEET SAD GURU” Gurudev spoke this in Malaysia,2004 It’s very important and will relieve you from anxiety in this respect. I think Gaur Govinda Maharaja said something similar.
Wishing you the best,
Krsna Kamini dasi
not a cheap thing and those who take up the role should
be 100% or more sure, that they are above the gunas.
Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja:
from:
http://www.bvml.org/SBPPG/eopd2.htm
It is imperative that the spiritual master be conversant with the purports of the revealed scriptures otherwise, if he is not able to clear the doubts of the disciples, inevitably the disciple will tend to become unsatisfied and may then become indifferent, or lack faith in the spiritual master. “Para brahma nisnatah” here refers to the necessity of the spiritual master being thoroughly convinced of the Absolute Transcendence by personal realization and experience; if not, his mercy will not be of much value nor will it bear any fruit. Another symptom of the bona fide spiritual master is that he is free form lust, anger, greed which is consonant with his spiritual awakening.
In Hari Bhakti Vilas, Srila Sanatana Gosvami quotes:
“A Guru who understands the actual conclusions of the revealed scripture has the ability to dissipate the doubts of the disciple. Furthermore, the Guru himself should be in a position to be able to experience the deep spiritual truths and be stoic in his understanding, otherwise he will never be able to impart true understanding to the disciple. The identity of such a spiritual master is peaceful and serene, whereby all base urges like lust etc. have been pacified. In addition he is resolute in the uninterrupted devotional service of the Lord such as the limbs of devotion like hearing and chanting. One should take shelter of such a genuine spiritual master.
This is what I mean… proper, bona fide “siddhanta”
Dear Brajanath Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
All glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinodebihariji
Thank you very much Prabhuji for this very impowering words full of truths and proper siddhanta.
I am happy that still there are devotess who do not compromise here and there.
I spent in ISCKON some short time before, but after 1 year of being iniciated by big ISCKON guru mahabhagavata I understood that it is all bogus and totally not-bona fide.
Some people in our sanga want re-establish “like in ISCKON” way…
Do not know that they would like me to do, go back to my teens times and start build up my sradha from scratch?
Did I left ISCKON to go back to ISCKON?
It does not work like that,
Obviously for new comers it may work but then it would be detrimental for them and for their sradha to have a contact with more spiritually “exerienced” devotess.
They may start to develop some doubts in own gurus and KC.
On the begining stages it is better to not know too much,otherwise very delicated sradha may be weakened even more.
So for them, there is a need for institution “like ISCKON”, institution for new people.
What about the rest of us?
Sastras explains everything…
Your unworthy servant
Murali dhar
“Do you know why Srila Gurudeva made me an Acharya?
He thought, “He has so many faults. He cannot be rescued unless he serves the vaisnavas. If I make him acarya, he will have to take care of all the vaisnavas, he will have to serve the vaisnavas, and in this way he will be rescued.” Thinking like this, Srila Gurudeva appointed me acarya. In our system, becoming President or Math-in-charge does not mean becoming the master of the organization. I was appointed acarya so that I may serve Gurudeva’s dependents. I have become acarya; this does not mean that I have become a big person, a worshipable person, and everybody should serve me. Such thinking will open the door to hell.”
-’Humility personified’-Srila Gurudeva on the occassion of 87th Vyas Puja Celebrations at Dehradun, Uttarakhand, India(12 April, 2011).
By: BhaktiBallabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj
Pranamaami Sadaa Guru Tirtha Padam …….. for see this 87 vyas puja video ….
http://www.youtube.com/user/baladev1?feature=mhum
i want to add that if some one want to know about who really love Gurudev in real sense, this devotee is the Divine Grace B.B.Tirtha Goswami Maharaj, because only a pure devotee can develop pure love towards Gurudev, and i have seen personally how and how much he loves HIM.
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
PRANATIH PANCAKAM (Pranam Mantra) at the Lotus Feet of
Om Vishnupad Srila Bhakti Vallabha Tirtha Goswami Maharaj
Note : aa sounds AA.
namah om vishnupaadaya sri gaura-priya murtaye
srimate bhakti vallabha tirtha goswami namine //1//
I pay my respectful obeisances unto Om Vishnupad Srila Bhakti Vallabha Tirtha
Goswami Maharaj, who is the loving personified of Sri Gaura Sundar. He is completely
enlightened by His bhajan-sampada ( wealth of Bhajan), whose ornaments are his bhajan and
whose senses and speech are under his control.
maayaavaad vikhandanam guror-vaanyanu kirtanam
pascadesopadesakam prasanna vadanam sadaa//2//
I bow down unto lotus feet of one who condemns the false-scriptures of mayavad, on
the basis of bhakti-siddhanta ( the philosophy of pure devotion). You are perfect and prompt
in vaisnava-philosophy of pure devotion. You are ever blissful and preaching the great
philosophy around the world including western countries.
suddhaa-bhakti pravaahakam suddhaa-bhakti bhagiratham,
bhakti dayita madhava abhinna tanum namaamyaham//3//
Oh bhagirath of pure devotion (one who carries pure devotion)! You are the one who
is spreading the Ganges of pure devotion all over the world, and non-different from Srila
Bhakti Dayita Madhava Goswami. You are His (Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Goswami’s)
expansion. I pay my respectful obeisances unto your lotus feet.
naam sankirtanaamrita rasaasvaada vidhaayakam,
krishnaamnaaya kripaa murtim acaaryam tam namaamyaham//4//
Just by Harinam sankirtan, you generate and preach the taste of nectar of Lord
Krishna’s unlimited holy name, form, characteristics, pastimes, abode.You are deity-form
(personification) of Lord Krishna’s mercy and the philosophy of this disciplic succession.
You teach and preach through your behaviour. I offer my respects unto you.
gaur-naam pracaaraardram bhakta sevaanu aakaankshitam,
satirtha-priti sad-bhaava naumi tirtha mahaashayam//5//
I pay my humble obeisances unto Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj,
whose soft heart has become full of nectar by continuously preaching the sweet nectarian
name of Sri Gaurhari. He – who serves all the vaisnava servants of Gauranga Mahaprabhu
humbly and glorifies them. Who is dear most to Srila Gurudeva (Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava
Goswami) and to whom Srila Gurudeva is dear most, and one who is extra-ordinarily loyal
and very loving to his god-brothers, I pay my respectful obeisances unto such Srila Bhakti
Vallabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaj.
Srila Prabhupada’s advice on the subject:
“Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master”
NOI Text 5 Purport
“In this verse Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, madhyama-adhikārī and uttama-adhikārī. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikārī Vaiṣṇava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiṣṇavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.”
both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva manifested their appearance lila in India. Their whole life they spent absorbed in the practices of pure bhakti, in sadhu sanga, and, towards the end of their manifested pastimes, in ripe old age as we say, they poured their matchless gifts and heartly blessings upon the conditioned living entities in the West and in the East, without discrimination
yes, some devotees have started already almost right after Srila Gurudeva’s departure; some others have started after Sri Gaura Purnima; some had already started even during Srila Gurudeva’s presence
sounds strange to me, and I guess most of those who might be qualified to give initiation haven`t done it so far, right?
Dandavats Brajanath prabhu, will you please say who was and who is initiating. Thank you.
dandavats pranams dear Hamish prabhu,
as far as I know at present Sripad Madhava Maharaja and Sripad Nemi Maharaja started giving initiation after Sri Gaura Purnima, Sripad Tirtha Maharaja was giving initiation since many years and is doing so now as well; also Sripad Damodara Maharaja started to give initiation since January 2010
There may be more that have started and I do not know of; still many of the senior Vaisnavas have decided not to give initiation, like Sripad Premananda prabhu, Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja and Srimati Syamarani didi.
b.v.vana maharaj also have many disciples in brazil, some says that he gave initiation when Gurudev was still present.
I remember that this was already in discussion in the year 2003 or 2004.
to me this sounds like good and bad news simultaniously and is a bit confusing.
Is it proper to give shelter in the form of initiation when the Guru is still active as a diksa
guru?
Both harinama and diksa ? Sri Radhe
what I would like to know:
Are there already devotees who have started to give initiation
to people?
lol The Who… another famous quote (unfortunatly I know them better then the transcendental ones):
“You can fool some people sometimes but you can’t fool all the
people all the time… get up stand up!” – Bob Marley -
Dandavat Pranams
Srila Prabhupada said East and West must work together for success.
Also, we see Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva have “pure common sense”
I have not seen this in anyone else, yet.
Dear Brajanath prabhuji, I thank you so much with a tear in my eye for your direct, fearless and tatvic opinions regarding the most influential issue facing our sanga at this critical time,that of initiation. I joined ISKCON in 1980 and suffered like most other members from the results of premature and unsastric initiation policys. For two decades I sank and rose in an ocean of hopelessness until I met our most gracious master Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayan Goswami who revived my faith with his bhagavat personality and being. I have lately been hearing ideas and opinions regarding this topic that have thrown me into a sense of deja-vu and a distinct fear. Your concerned words and thoughts have eased that fear knowing that someone of your standing is not willing to go quietly into the night,that you genuinely represent the truest intentions of vaisnavism with no personal motives, Just to satisfy the previous acaryas desires for the well being of all. Thank you so much. I will sleep better tonight, yours sincerely Madana Mohan
Srila Gurudev many times told: “U all should pray that in your next life u will be born in India”. In Gurudev´s Gita B.Thakur say: “All maha bhagavatas have born in India, why? because there is a varnasrama dharma that is perfectly for spiritual life.” So unfortunate iam that receive this body in western country, where visaya marga is very proeminent. Whats the shame to say this? Whats our compromisse with the truth? But Mahaprabhu came to save the most fallen souls, if i think that iam not fallen soul, my life is unsucessfull, Mahaprabhu will not save me as he is known as Patita Pavana.
Dear Brajanath Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
All glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinodebihariji.
I have just read your article.
Thank you very much.
It has helped me try to understand this difficult subject.
Please remember me with kindness.
vaisnava dasanudas abhilasa
Banwari lal das
My sincere Pranams to ALL! JAYA GURUDEVA!
KRISHNA IS TIME , AND SUPREME CONTOLLER!
WHAT ABOUT PREMA PRAJYOJANA DAS????? WAS ANY ACTION TAKEN AGAINST HIM???? personally i truely feel that he should not be part of our sangha anymore for all the pain and unhappiness he gave to Our Beloved Srila Gurudeva, always disobeying Him (read walking with a saint)….Even in Delhi when Srila Gurudeva was so ill , Prem Prayojana das was speaking very easily Harikatha in very happy mood , teaching even sannyasis seniors to him,(i was personally witness), when he really should have repented from the core of his heart and surrendered to Our Srila Gurudeva’s very deep desire for him to take sannyasa again .All can remember how much Our Srila Gurudeva had been criticised by his God brothers for giving sannyasa to foreigneirs, and how so easily P.P.d dishonored the title Bhatkivedanta and tridanda and besha given by Our Srila Gurudeva Himself ….i will never forgive him ….to have put Our Srila Gurudeva at shame in front of his victorious Godbrothers.!!
NO ONE WILL, AT ANYTIME ,EVER REACH THE COMPASSION AND LOVE THAT OUR SRILA GURUDEVA MANIFESTED FOR THE MOST FALLEN OF THIS WORLD…At the risk of being so much CRITICISED BY ALL GAUDIYA MATHS AND GODBORHERS, He opened the Treasure chest and distributed freely all the content to wretched people like us… Who could sacrifice His own Bhajan in Vraja at such elderly age, with so many surgeries and bad health travel the world twice a year???? NOBODY except FOR OUR SRILA SWAMI PRABHUPADA!
SO BETTER LET EVERYONE DO WHAT THEY HAVE IN MIND , BECAUSE NOONE CAN STRAIGHT UP THE TAIL OF A DOG ,many times Srila Gurudeva used this term… MAHAPRABHU WILL ARRANGE, WE SHOULD HAVE NO DOUBT!!!
The entire world is bereft of the most munificent and worshipable SRILA GURUDEVA , even mother trembles from every part of the globe at this GREATEST TRAGEDY.!!
MAY OUR SILA GURUDEVA HIMSELF COME BACK TO US, AS NO ONE CAN EVER LEVEL HIM .
Sons can never become their own father…….with respect.
If any offense please forgive me.
JAYA GURUDEVA!!!HARE KRISHNA!!
Dandavats Brajanath prabhu and all Vaishnava`s
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
I have a question,Srila Gurudeva initially selected 5 of His senior siksha and Sanyassa disciples,i.e.Sripad Vana,Thitha,Madhava and Sridhar Maharaja`s and Premananda prabhu to guide the society and Srila Gurudeva said these 5 have understood his heart.Now the last structure when Srila Gurudeva was with us was the IPBYS,what happened to that structure?
Now we see the BTI is the managing body.Regarding the initiations and other matters was not this discussed in the Navadvipa meetings and a resoltion taken?Also if we going to debate outside those meetings what is the need to have such meetings?
Also sorry if i may have missed seeing it but has Srila Gurudeva`s last will and testament been made public?
ys
Acyuta dasa
dandavats pranams dear Acyuta prabhu,
all glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga
many thanks for your sincere inquiries; my reply is yes, Srila Gurudeva mentioned in class, publicly, that he is confident that his mission will continue because these 5 most wonderful Vaisnavas have captured and understood his teachings thoroughly.
They will spread these all over the world and because they are surrendered to Srila Gurudeva they will properly represent him. Srila Gurudeva mentioned also that after he will depart there will be at least 5 new Narayana Maharajas.
I presented the draft structure of IPBYS to Srila Gurudeva and posted the same on Back to Bhakti on 10th of August 2010 http://backtobhakti.com/about/first-draft-of-proposed-structure-for-your-feedback/
Srila Gurudeva liked this draft very much.
At present we are doing our best to continue without the physical presence of Srila Gurudeva. Many opinions and concerns are voiced and so far we seem to be on the right track. Some committees have been formed and the BTI has been requested to offer advice and direction. All this is being done in a very careful and concerned manner. We want that spiritual nourishment will continue and devotees worldwide are inspired to have sadhu sanga and deepen their sadhana and bhajana. This is all part of the IPBYS as you can see in the draft chart.
Srila Gurudeva’s cherished desire is that we always keep Bhakti as our priority, our ultimate goal; he said that if management is needed, this should follow bhakti, not the other way around.
Regarding initiation, in Navadvip some careful decisions were made and a lot of discussion took place. More discussions are going on at present. A summery of this will be presented very soon. Again, we want to be very careful in this matter since there are so many areas that may create unnecessary conflict. Some conflict will be there since this is the nature of the world we live in, but as much as is possible we hope to avoid unnecessary ones. But we can only try and do our best…. for in the end the Lord disposes.
We pray to Srila Gurudeva to guide and protect us in this difficult period. So far he has certainly done this so we are very much hopeful that he will continue to do the same.
Regarding the Last Will, this was widely distributed by email just before Sri Navadvip parikram. Very soon we will publish this also on BacktoBhakti
If you have any more questions, please do not hesitate and write again
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa
Most respected God Brothers and God sisters,
My sincere and humble obesiances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Sri Radha Vinodbiharijiu.
I would like to thank you all very much for this very interesting debate….The entire world just lost one of His most proeminent , MahaMaha vadanayaya Sri Guru, and this is the greastest tragedy we can ever imagine.
Because we know that no one will ever be compared to Our Most perfect and Worshipable Srila Gurudeva!! even any coming Mahabhagavat Sri Guru.. Srila Gurudeva is the ONLY ONE WHO SO MERCIFULLY OPENED THE FULLY LOCKED TREASURE CHEST AND DISTRIBUTE FREELY WHAT ANY OTHERS COULD Never EVER GIVE SO MERCIFULLY TO ALL..at the cost of being criticised and rejected by his own so called God Brothers… Our grief is such that ONLY Our Srila GURUDEVA HIMSELF SHOULD COME BACK TO US ON THIS PLANET!!!!!No one CAN EVER BE OF His calibre….All Acarayas have their respectives specialities, and in Sri Goloka Dham They are also serving in different ways..Us His very minute aspiring disciples wishes to only serve in His and Her Team eternally .
I respect all sannyasis as much as i can, AS They are my respected brothers, whatever they will decide, to do has got nothing to do with my spiritual life, Their Srila Gurudeva will rectify them as they deserve if they are going astray from His most perfect order.
Of course to protect Our Sangha ,…… but what to do even during the Divine presence of Our Srila Gurudeva His most competent preacher deviated shamelessly and was even continously desobeying His Instructions till the end of Our Srila Gurudeva manifested lila , but nobody in Our Sangha dared rebuking him as deserved…. for hours he could speak Harikhata and teach even sannyasis (seniors to Him from Our Srila Swami Prabhupada )…so……whatever They will sow They will have to ripe.in due course of time…..If a Vyasasan was already dreamed of, by some even before Srila Gurudevas divine presence, how can anyone stop this fire NOW!!!!They will destroy themselves, whoever they maybe, if they were not ready for this post…..KRISHNA WILL ARRANGE, KRIHSNA IS TIME HIMSELF!!!!THE SUPREME CONTOLLER……
Folded hands please forgive any offense….
from my heart my sincere pranams . HARE KRISHNA! JAYA GURUDEVA!
.shashikala dasianudasi of Sri Govardhan Dham
“ONLY Our Srila GURUDEVA HIMSELF SHOULD COME BACK TO US ON THIS PLANET!!!!!”..?? What does that mean please ? If he is already back, he is only a few month old… that does not solve the ‘problem’ of initiation, unless some exalted devotee recognize him. What about Srila Prabhupada and others in the Parampara ? Are they somewhere on earth ? I would have missed such a wonderful oportunity to have their association. Shame on me, shame on me ! Dandavats didi, all glories to your gurunistha. Aspiring for Guru Gauranga seva, Narayani devidasi
Jaya, Isa prabhuji ! You’re absolutely right ! Hari bol !
Us, old timers are “battle scarred and battle hardened ” !
We don’t want to see the same-o same-o ! Especially after we’ve all left or were kicked out of ISKCON for the same reasons ! A word from the British rock band, The Who : ” We won’t get fooled again ! No ! No! “
Dear Brajanath prabhu,
Dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
Prabhu, the impression I get from your article in relation to what I have heard of your position that the westerners are not qualified to be spiritual masters, is that you may think that all the western devotees considering being gurus are neophyte devotees. Is this true?
I agree that it is ideal if the guru meets the qualifications elaborated on in your article and personally I have my opinion on who meets that standard and who I will accept as my primary siksa guru and encourage new devotees to accept diksa from. I’m sure you agree that it is up to each guru and disciple to decide for themselves about this qualification, whether that is the qualification they choose and whether they meet the qualification. Other than speaking out like you are about the qualification to emphasis the value and importance of it, nothing else can be done. Legislation can do no good; it can only do harm. Don’t you agree?
I have a recommendation for you and everyone else evaluating who meets these qualifications. It is not so easy to see if someone else is in Krishna’s pastimes in Vrindavan in their heart at every moment. There are only those miracle moments when Krishna awakens the realization in our hearts that the person in front of us is such an uttam. That doesn’t mean we will always know an uttam devotee when we see them.
If we look at externals to try to qualify we may be mistaken. Brilliance of intellect, full knowledge of scriptures, and a long history of life in the ashram and/or service to the spiritual master, or an Indian body are not qualifications for guru nor is the lack of all these things a disqualification. We have seen in our lives that the ones closest to the guru or in the most prominent positions or the most charismatic, brilliant, and influential aren’t always the most qualified.
I suggest we look for obvious signs of disqualification such as the desire for profit, adoration, and distinction. Who is prideful and has a tendency to politic to control devotees, corporations, policies, and money, and alienate advanced sincere humble devotees with this disagreeable behavior and criticism? These are things we westerners have grown very expert at seeing.
Not that we should look for faults and criticize. We should not ignore a devotees good qualities, service, and advancement or be disrespectful or unappreciative just because these qualities and behaviors are also there. But we should not be afraid to be aware, to allow ourselves to see the truth. It is offensive to criticize devotees and otherwise harm them of course. That means it is also offensive to encourage devotees to follow someone as guru that is not qualified, that has ulterior motives, etc. So we must be observant and aware, not to put anyone down, but to know who not to endorse and follow.
I pray I have not offended anyone by my comments and if I have I beg your forgiveness.
Aspiring to be of service to the vaisnavas
Dhananjaya dasa
my dandavats pranams to you dear Dhananjaya prabhu,
thank you for your sincere message and personal inquiry as to who is a neophyte devotee according to my observations.
I know that I my self have received a Western body and am definitely a neophyte. For others that have a Western body I cannot make such an overall statement but I know that in Gaudiya Vaisnava history there have been mainly examples of exalted, pure Vaisnava Acharyas with bodies born in India. If I observe our disciplic succession, all are with Indian bodies so far on the altar, and in our Maths.
Of course in ISKCON there are many pictures with Western bodies but they have adopted a system which allows watering down the Tattva and Siddhanta of our Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya. Even when an authentic Acharya appears in their midst they are unable to appreciate this. History has proven this more than once. I know that in ISKCON the original spiritual values were ‘destroyed’ by neophyte devotees, mostly by those with Western bodies. Legislation of the process of initiation has definitely contributed to this.
Still, I do not like this duality that someone is Indian and someone else is Western. Srila Gurudeva never made these distinctions. I suggest that devotees around the world seek their spiritual nourishment with those senior devotees that they feel most attracted too. There is a place for all sincere devotees in the house that our Acharyas have built and we need each others association in order to make spiritual progress.
But initiation should not be made a cheap commodity, this is my concern.
Regarding spiritual leadership for an International Society and giving initiation to new devotees, I have definitely much more faith in the devotees that have received the deepest spiritual impressions and have honorable seva records. If we study the life history of our Gurudeva, of Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada and other Acharyas we see that they never were entangled in sinful activities. My story is definitely not the same.
Srila Rupa Gosvami advises that human life is meant to perform bhajana of Sri Krsna. Srila Gurudeva confided in me that the only reason that our Acharyas have established Maths is to provide the golden opportunity for the living entities to perform bhajana.
This is the only measurement stick that I prefer to use in understanding how advanced a devotee is. Srila Gurudeva explains in his lecture – Kartik 1996 – that the first 4 angas of bhajana are the most important:
‘The first item is to take shelter of a bona fide guru, and the second is to receive diksa from him. The third item is visrambhena guruseva, serving the guru with intimate affection, and the fourth is sadhu-vartmanuvartante: following the path established by the acaryas. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada emphasises this item in particular. It means that we have to understand how Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Srila Narottama Thakura, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada and our Gurudeva have performed bhajana. That is the path which must be followed; we will have to follow it.’
I have observed a little bit our Srila Gurudeva, how he performed bhajana and I have also observed a little bit many of his followers. I have some very tiny idea who is absorbed in these 4 most important angas of bhajana; it is my desire to be of service to these devotees.
In this world all living entities are to some degree entangled in the complexity of material activities. In India it is not much different from the West except that there is more emphasis on religion and up to this day, true, saintly persons are present. This is why I love India and I love Indian devotees, and being with them in the Holy Places is so favorable for my own spiritual progress.
I am also very attracted to stool and therefore I often contemplate the faults and the shortcomings in others. However, by the causeless mercy of Srila Gurudeva and Vaisnavas I realize that this is of no use for everybody in this world passes stool; to examine whether this is soft, hard, foul smelling or not, still stool is stool. This habit is very detrimental for spiritual progress but, my misfortune is that I am hopelessly obsessed with it.
The Sastras strongly advice that only by sadhu sanga can we overcome our bad habits. Sadhus are very kind and merciful, they tolerate even a useless person like me. To become attached to a genuine sadhu is the best that can happen to us. This is the greatest fortune for the living entity.
In conclusion I want to share with you this advice from Srila Gurudeva:
‘We must know what is the aim and object of our sadhana-bhajana. We must know whether we are only performing arcana, or whether we are actually trying to enter into bhajana. We may think that we are engaged in so much devotional service and so much preaching work, but we must be careful. If we are not trying to do bhajana, if we are not trying to enter into the realm of real bhakti, then all of these activities are karmanga. They are actually material activities.’
I hope that this is helpful for you and also for other sincere readers.
aspiring for the seva of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath dasa
Dear Brajanath prabhu,
Dandavats and thank you for your patient and thorough reply.
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!
All of your points are well made and well taken.
Although my personality is predisposed to like westerners more than Indians, somewhat opposite of you, the one I have faith in as guru is Indian. However, aside from him, for every day association and guidance I prefer all the western devotees who I can understand and relate to.
There is something to be said for accessibility. We want a guru disciple relationship with someone we have access to, can have an actual relationship with, and who nurtures us. For many westerners the Indian Maths and the advanced devotees in them work but for others I can see why it doesn’t and why they prefer a westerner.
I had a deep instantaneous impression from Srila Gurudeva the first time I met him that inspired me to accept him as my guru immediately in my heart. But my mind objected so to pacify my mind I objectively evaluated him before deciding externally. So I considered that he immediately dispelled my doubts and restored my faith, that his life is pure and fits the example of an acharya, that he did not compete and politic for power and disciples after the departure of his gurudeva and renounced everything when it became unfavorable, that he was well beyond the years of temptation and had passed all the tests of maya’s temptations, that his humility was astoundingly perfect and he had no tinge of pride, and most of all that his love, compassion, kindness, and full acceptance of us was overwhelming. So I agree with you that we should have this high standard for acharya.
But that doesn’t preclude madhyam or even kanistha gurus too. Srila Gurudeva set an example in his interactions with Iskcon Gurus that he offered to not take any disciples and just preach. To me this is an indication that the primary importance is siksha and that anyone under the guidance, under the siksa of an uttam, who brings his disciples to this same uttam for siksa, welcoming them to take diksa from the uttam if they like and if he will give, may take as many as would have him as guru himself.
So we should see if those qualities of an uttam that we saw in Srila Gurudeva are in a prospective guru regardless of their place of birth. Some may not see those qualities in any, some may see them in one or two or three. But there seems to be little consensus on who that is because the acharya has not self manifest yet.
Personally, I rule out anyone as acharya or uttam who has any tendency to politic and compete for power, money, disciples, or who isn’t overflowing with an abundance of acceptance and affection for everyone. But if such a devotee is following an uttam and brings his followers to the uttam then I have faith in him as guru more than someone who is much more advanced and/or exemplary but neither an uttam nor under the care of one.
So if we don’t see those qualities we shouldn’t accept any devotee as guru just because externally his life is exemplary. Just as you expressed good cause for caution toward devotees from the west being qualified acharyas, I think there is equally good cause to be cautious toward Indian devotees who have their own set of unique challenges which I don’t think need elaboration.
So for me I will accept and endorse a clear uttam as guru or any madhyam under guidance of an uttam. But I think an acharya isn’t just an uttam. I suspect that the acharya has two present in her being, the sweet innocent manjari and Guru shakti. So time will tell who will manifest in this way and there is no need to be impatient.
I beg your continued patience for the shortcomings in my presentation and my character.
Aspiring to be of service to the vaisnavas,
Dhananjaya dasa
Happy to read such a nice realisations here.
It is nice that there are devotess who are like minded.
I do not need to be double faced anymore
Sripad Brajanath Prabhu Kee! Jay!
Dandavats Brajanath prabhuji !
Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah ! Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji !
I agree with you when you’ve stated, ” Also, Srila Gurudeva shared with me that after his departure we will see surprising things. We will see the real swarup of many persons.” How true, prabhu ! Their true colors will show for sure ! We’ll surely find out why they gave money, why they took sannyass,why they came to Gurudeva’s sanga, etc. Their motives will surely manifest in due course of time !
Prabhu, I also agree with you that we should be reluctant to have “initiations” prematurely shortly after Gurudeva’s departure. We can barely support our present Sanga right now ( LA Rose Temple, New Braj, etc). We should ALL concentrate on what our most beloved Gurudeva has established and maintain it. If we
start increasing our numbers without first maintaining
what we now have, we will surely suffer from the weight of our responsibilities. Sannyasis who start initiating will concentrate more on his disciples and his programs and eventually break away from Gurudeva’s Sanga and might even cause dissentions and petty jelousies among the ranks ! Please, let us try maintaining what our beloved Gurudeva has established now before we try to expand (initiate) prematurely. Please forgive me if I’ve offended anyone, as no offences were meant. Hare Krsna ! All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga !!!
Yours in the loving service to Srila Gurudeva,
Jayanta das
sri sri guru gaurangau jayatah
my dandavat pranams to all the vaishnavas,may i request all the devotees to post more of their memorie of HDG Srila B V Narayan Maharaj ,i think that will solve the issues of initations,at least for upto the first viraha utsava of Srila Gurudeva we all should concentrate on glorifying and remembring the Maha Bhagavat HDG Srila B V Narayan Maharaj .
“During the time of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, there were many very qualified sannyasis like Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Vaikhanas Maharaja, Srila Yayavar Maharaja, my Gurudeva Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Madhava Maharaja, and others. Although they were highly qualified, however, they never initiated anyone during the manifest stay of their Guru Maharaja. It was not until after Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s departure that they began to initiate. Similarly, at the time of my Gurudeva’s manifested stay, none of us ever initiated anyone. In fact, even after his passing, when the Society continued under the guidance of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Vamana Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Trivikrama Maharaja, and myself, although there were many qualified devotees, except for the president, Srila Vamana Maharaja, no one gave initiation for several years.”
more about the postman:
Srila Gurudeva Kartik 1996 :
‘Emphasise sadhana-bhajana and stay focused on it. If you are always preaching, but not practising sadhana-bhajana, then your preaching will be like karma. Instead of making progress on this path, you will go down. When you have understood and realised all these teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the gurus in our disciplic succession, then you can preach something. You must be able to give it to others as a postman delivers a letter, without changing it, and you must not be involved in avidya or material activities. Then you can preach.’
perfect brajanath prabhuji …. as Sri Rupa Siddhanti Maharj told and was published in our Rays Of Harmonist: “Only after the departure of Acharya, we will see whats the intentions of the disciples.” not before that!
hare krishna brajanath prabhu, good what you have said, are some devotees jumping on the band wagon to be a guru or a ‘kangaru’ good topic take care
I don`t what is going on right now in the worlswidesanga but what I know is that I feel very comfortable with the words
written by Brajanath Prabhu.
Thanks for that. Why settle for anyone less qualified then an uttama bhakta?
Dear Narahari das, Please with folden hands of humility, it is not ‘uttama bhakta’ it is
‘uttama-adhikari’…’bhakta’ denotes someone who is neophyte/learner. ‘Uttama’ is the topmost. Hare krsna.
Dandavat pranams!
This is a most serious issue and is rightfully being addressed. Thank you!
… one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Krsna and should follow in his footsteps
NoI 8
Srila Gurudeva explained to my daughter and I that all in the sanga can give us knowledge, but come directly to Him, because He is giving Bhakti.
A gosvami must be free from all these vices before he can dare sit on the vyasasana. No one should be allowed to sit on the vyasasana who is not spotless in character.
SB 1.1.6 Questions by the Sages