Dear Devotees and dear Friends,
please accept my dandavats pranams. I am praying to Srila Gurudeva to always shower his heartly blessings upon all of us. All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga and all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.
Many devotees from around the world have approached us with the request to help them understand how Srila Gurudeva’s mission will continue. I want to provide and share with you whatever my understanding is and what I have heard from Srila Gurudeva directly:
First and foremost Srila Gurudeva has emphasized again and again that all should respect one another, be very humble and always have loving, affectionate relationships. In this way all will be happy and nourished. Moreover, Srila Gurudeva is always with us, through his instructions, his devotees, and within our heart. We should overlook each other’s shortcomings and serve combined to spread the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
He has approved and clearly indicated that we are an International Society and the name is International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society. Srila Gurudeva is the Founder and Acharya of our International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society. Srila Gurudeva did not want an Acharya to be appointed after him. Just as it was the desire of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, Srila Gurudeva’s desire is that we serve combined under the shelter of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas.
He has expressed that there will be meetings twice a year, at the time of Sri Gaura Purnima and Kartik festivals. All the senior Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis are invited to participate in these meetings; especially the Sannyasis are requested to be present. Our first meeting will take place just after Sri Gaura Purnima 2011. More details will follow soon.
Srila Gurudeva wants that there will be a Seva Team that offers assistance with activities such as preaching, book publishing, book distribution, and organization of Kartik and Gaura Mandala parikrams.
This Seva Team will consist of a Chairman and assistants. It is the desire of Srila Gurudeva that Sripad Bhaktivedanta Madhava Maharaja will be the first Chairman. In our meeting we will suggest for what period of time a devotee will be functioning as Chairman. For the time being Sripad Madhava Maharaja will be acting Chairman. This will be approved or improved upon when our meeting will be held at Sri Gaura Purnima, in our Sri Kesavjia Gaudiya Math, Haritala, Sri Navadvip Dham.
Next is initiations. Srila Gurudeva desires that all our Sannyasis will be giving Harinama and Diksa. This has been his order since Kartik 2008. Out of respect for Srila Gurudeva and with deference to his incalculable superior advancement, up till now none of our Sannyasis has performed initiations. Now that Srila Gurudeva has left our vision, our Sannyasis will take up this responsibility. How they will approach this will be discussed and approved in our upcoming meetings.
For preaching, it is Srila Gurudeva’s desire that each preacher dedicates him or her self to one area as a base, develops this, and from there preaches in other parts of the world. All this is to be discussed at our upcoming meetings.
I want to clarify that all the Maths and other properties that are facilitating preaching activities in our worldwide Society are registered and safeguarded in local legal entities. There is not one property or Math in India or abroad which is owned by, or registered in the name of one person. The same is true for bank accounts that are used for Srila Gurudeva’s mission. Not one account is in the name of one single person. It is Srila Gurudeva’s desire that there will be proper and open accounts presented once in a calendar year; this pertains to the legal entities as well as to the sannyasis and other preachers.
In regard to Srila Gurudeva’s Samadhi Mandir, this will be dedicated to Srila Gurudeva only. We will make separate arrangements in our Natha Mandir for proper glorification of Param Pujyapada Srila Bhaktivedanta Vaman Gosvami Maharaja and Param Pujyapada Srila Bhaktivedanta Trivikram Gosvami Maharaja. Srila Gurudeva’s Samadhi Mandir will be 40 feet wide and 65 feet long. There will be one section on the ground floor where the actual Samadhi is situated, and the first floor will consist of the Samadhi Mandir with Srila Gurudeva’s murti form. Devotees are herewith invited to offer designs – kindly forward to brajanath@gmail.com. At the time of Sri Gaura Mahotsava the best design will be selected.
In our upcoming meeting all the above matters will be discussed and favorable proposals will be voted upon. All proposals will be collected and circulated 2 weeks before we have our meeting so as to have an agenda in place which will facilitate a smooth system of decision making.
Thank you for your kind attention.
More news will follow.
aspirant for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath das
Gour Govinda Maharaj:
Cry for the Sun
A dear devotee of Krishna, who is an acarya, comes here to give us Krishna. krsna se tomara, krsna dite para, tomara s’akati ache — “O vaisnava Thakur! Krishna belongs to you because you have bound up Krishna in your heart with the rope of love. Only you can give me Krishna.” Acaryas like my revered spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, come here to give us Krishna, to spread Krishna consciousness throughout the world. He did such good to us. When such an acarya disappears, such a dear devotee of Krishna, we should cry because this is the most acute pain for us. When the acarya leaves, a dark period comes. The sun sets and darkness comes. Here, Uddhava says that the Krishna sun has set, so darkness is prevailing. We are in darkness. What auspiciousness is there for us Similarly, when such a dear devotee of Krishna, an acarya, disappears, there is a dark period, a most inauspicious period. We are in such a most inauspicious dark period. Groping in the darkness. Now that such a dear devotee, acarya, has gone. As the effulgent sun may be covered by a patch of black cloud, similarly such a dark period has come. After the disappearance of my revered spiritual master, a dear devotee of Krishna, Gaura, such a dark period has come. Definitely we are in a dark period. We are suffering and crying, groping in the darkness. What auspiciousness is there So, we must cry for that effulgent sun to again rise. Let that patch of dark cloud disappear! We must cry for it.
We are spending the dark night in a motel. But we should not just sleep and snore. We should cry and cry, anxiously waiting for the rising of the effulgent sun. Let the darkness disappear and the effulgent sun rise, so that I can catch up the road to Purushottam Dham. I am just a traveler spending the dark night in this motel. This illusory material world is like a motel. The illusory energy of the Lord is like darkness, whereas Krishna is like the sun — krsna suryasama; maya haya andhakara. Those who are covered by this illusory energy are in darkness. We must cry for the effulgent sun to rise. Don’t forget this. This is such severe grief for us. We have to cry and then pray for the effulgent sun to rise. Then all happiness, auspiciousness, and enlightenment will come. Then we will catch up the road leading to Purushottam Dham, the abode of Lord Jagannath. I am just a traveler going there. Otherwise, where is there any auspiciousness for us if we are bereft of devotion, Krishna, and such a dear devotee
When the acarya disappears, a dark period comes, just as a patch of black cloud covers up the effulgent sun. It is an unfortunate time, but it is temporary. That cloud will go away. A violent storm may come and disperse the cloud, and then the effulgent sun will come out.
If you trace out history you will find that after the disappearance of an acarya, this period comes. That period came after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Then his disciple Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami appeared like the effulgent sun. After his disappearance, a dark period has come. The sun is there. It is only covered by a temporary black cloud. It will be dispersed and then the effulgent sun will come.
Mahaprabhu was doing acarya-lila — preaching. After the disappearance of Mahaprabhu the Goswamis came.
http://bvml.org/SGGM/atdosg.html
(But initiation and preaching should be continued and when the Acharya emerge, all these clouds will be dispersed)
When I came to the sanga it was explained that because our Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Gurudeva to place Him in Samadhi it was accepted by the Vaishnava’s that Gurudeva was Prabhupada’s spiritual successor. Now I have read in Gurudeva’s will that He asked Madhava Maharaja, Tirtha Maharaja and Prabhuji to place Him in Samadhi. As the Gaudiya Samadhi had Srila Gurudeva, Srila Trivikrama Maharaja and Srila Vamana Maharaja, we have these three extraordinarily souls.
Srila Gurudeva has given us the perfect management teams and spiritual teams to guide our sanga. Let us all pray for their well being and success!
There is no question of how Srila Gurudeva wanted our society to function, there are movies, letters and darshans explaining in detail.
Srila Prabhupada:
Real meaning of going to a sacred place–to find out some intelligent scholar in spiritual knowledge. They are living there. To make association with them, to take knowledge from them–that is the purpose of going to pilgrimage. Because in pilgrimage, holy places… Just like I, my residence is at Vrndavana. So at Vrndavana there are many great scholars and saintly persons living. So one should go to such holy places not simply to take bath in the water, but he must be intelligent enough to find out some spiritually advanced man living there and take instruction from him and (be) benefited by that.
However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress.
Madhya Lila 22.71
Dandavats dear devotees,
Srila Narayana maharaj told us in Italy Festival 2010 that only madhyam-madyam adhikaris may iniate, so are our sannyasis on that position ?
how can they iniate if they have still anarthas?
Thank you for your answer
Pirathib Dasa
Srila Prabhupada:
If, by the grace of the Lord and the great-souled devotees of the Lord, a living being becomes fortunate enough to associate with the unadulterated devotees of the Lord and gets a chance to hear the unadulterated glories of the Lord, certainly the flow of devotional service takes place like the flow of a river. As the river flows on till she reaches the sea, similarly pure devotional service flows by the association of pure devotees till it reaches the ultimate goal, namely, transcendental love of God. Such a flow of devotional service cannot stop. On the contrary, it increases more and more without limitation. The flow of devotional service is so potent that any onlooker also becomes liberated from the influence of the modes of passion and ignorance.
Srila Prabhupada:
“This is, however, the path of renunciation based on a frustrated life, but stabilization of such renunciation is possible only by association with bona fide saints and self-realized souls by which one can be engaged in the loving devotional service of the Lord. Sincere surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord is possible by awakening the transcendental sense of service. This is made possible by association with pure devotees of the Lord. Dhrtarastra was lucky enough to have a brother whose very association was a source of liberation for his frustrated life.”
Dandavats all vaisnavas, please forgive me my offences and do not take an offence. I have just have some doubts…
I have just read the morning conversation from Italien festival regarding future iniciation and has come to the conclusion that “philosophy is philosophy but life is life”
or otherwords Srila Gurudeva preaches siddhanta what is the qualification of madhyama-adhikara (asakti) and so on but at the end he speak what many around him wants to hear.
“yes, you can give iniciation, “madhyama” is available everywhere….
why is telling this?
I did watched it before on you tube , some leaders..are very obsesed in this topic, for me it look very very suspicious.
in 2006 on kartic, one astrologer approaached me, he was waiting for darshan with Srila Gurudeva.
From this was he was telling me I can believe he has some sakti, mistic powers. He told about my furure events and everything about my future wife and so on.
Then I asked him something about ISCKON. He replied “do not take me wrong, ISCKON is not bad,people are bad, same here” and he showed antaraja of Srila gurudeva and told ” some of them just waiting for Srila Gurudeva when he will leave to take his position”
Srila gurudeva is antaryami, he knows all desire of his followers, he is kalpatarubjas ca.. and he fulfils all desires of his followers.
this is why he is aware and tells “you can be a guru ” but same time he tells siddhanta “you do not have adhikara to be a guru”
Radhe Radhe!!
Dandavats to all vaisnavas
This is why institution is NOT FOR EVERYBODY.
Institution are for general devotees(like me) just to get sukrti. when I speak about sukri I mean bhakti-sukrti not karma-sukrti. In India and elsewhere there are many people who are chanting holy name, following 4 regs, ekadasi,and so on, take only prasada but without sat-sanga.
they only desire material things.
Institution is only good when is connected to sadhu sanga otherwise it is just KARMA.
In ISCKON there is no connection, and telling more something there is upside down.
GBC means governing body ( supposed to be ksatrias) controls sannyasis, gurus, (supposed to be brahmanas). They can kick out anybody.
So the hands controls the head but shoud be opposite!
This is why so many politics (rajo/tamo gunas) there.
In Dvapara Yuga similar thing happened but then Parasurama appeared and did the job
So I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER ISCKON!!
I want institution but based on bona fide foundation and connected to sadhu-sanga. Brahmanas control ksatrias and they control the rest of people.
So lets start from the head.
If head will be healthy and strong and all part of the body will cooperate and naturally will be healthy and strong
Please, forgive me my offences
Radhe Radhe!!
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: What if there is no maha-bhagavat available in our sanga?
Srila Gurudeva: Madhyama.
Sripad Asrama Maharaja: Madhyama; madhyama-madhyama.
Srila Gurudeva: Madhyama is available everywhere.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Everywhere?
Srila Gurudeva: (To Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja) You yourself can give diksa.
Sripad Suddhadvaiti Maharaja: Why are you cheating me now?
Srila Gurudeva: Nemi Maharaja, and you, and all. One day you will have to give diksa; today or tomorrow.
“Nemi Maharaja, and you, and all.”
Perhaps we can use reason and logic to determine what Gurudev is meaning by “all.” Madhyama. Okay. And who will determine for us “lesser” folks who the Madhyama adhikari disciples are? Will it be the new GBC? Will it be by majority vote? Popularity? Will they represent a disciplic lineage which they did not inherit any mantle or empowerment of, or be creating their own?
And if there is a choice between Madhyama in “our” society and Uttama from another society, who will take diksha and shiksa from the lesser? This is not a recommendation that all who consider themselves of madhyama level should begin initiating their own disciples.
Today, tomoorow, one day, next life perhaps…all will have to come to that level, yes. But for now, the average person shouldn’t be misled to take initiation from just anybody.
Well, let them do what they want. Either they will act with common sense or not.
dandavats , once a question was asked of Parampujapada HDG GourGovinda Swami about Srila Gurudeva { Parampujapada HDG Narayana Maharaja] not being a member of ISKcon .His reply was [from memory] -” Inside ISKcon ,out side ISKcon , you make this distinction . When we speak of Vaisnava , that is another thing .”
))))))))))))
On some occasions He would say Vaisnava means pure Vaisnava .They can help us so much . Conversely He also said it is dangerous to follow conditioned souls.So my understanding is its not so important which institution some one is or isn’t in . The main thing is their level of being – if they are self-realized they can help us so much .Radhe Radhe !!
“So if we feel we must do something then distributing books , preaching ,opening temples ,model vedic farming communities etc etc will help us accumulate enough bhakti unmuki sukriti that will lead us to doing Pure Bhakti”
Srila Prabhupada:
“Endeavors in devotional service are never baffled. Nor is there failure. A slight beginning of such activities is sufficient even to deliver a person from the great ocean of material fears.” As a highly potent drug injected intravenously acts at once on the whole body, the transcendental topics of the Lord injected through the ear of the pure devotee of the Lord can act very efficiently. Aural realization of the transcendental messages implies total realization, just as fructification of one part of a tree implies fructification of all other parts. This realization for a moment in the association of pure devotees like Sukadeva Gosvami prepares one’s complete life for eternity. And thus the sun fails to rob the pure devotee of his duration of life,
You said “Srila gurudeva did not come to preach arop siddha bhakti and varnasrama. It was already done by Bhaktivedanta Svami before. Srila Gurudeva focused on sanga siddha and svarup siddha bhakti.”
You are 100% wrong Srila Gurudeva has given the same as my Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you have not read the introduction to CC nor read Srila Prabhupada’s purports on NOI.
Your servant
Isa das
My real concern with this article is that there seems to be no evidence to support the claim that gurudeva has appointed Madhava Maharaj as the chairman.
Do not get me wrong I think he would be a good leader I just want to know who saw gurudeva say this and why it wasnt recorded as it is such a vitally important instruction?
Dear Vaisnava das, you are very funny I like you very much.
I didnt read the whole thing but I cannot see you making any offence to anybody and it seems like the whole sanga wants to hang you.
It appears that your concerns are very legitimate and that open discussion really is not being promoted in our society.
In reply to your original post I think you are right in requesting that we hear gurudevas specific instructions on who can initiate. I think that you are also right in expressing concern for a group of sanyasis that has no leader.
Actually I think the fundamental question that we are being faced with right now is one of leadership. Srila Sarasvati Thakhurs society collapsed into chaos because no acharya was anounced, Isckon remained strong although there was no acharya but descended into politics an apparad but the gaudiya vedanta samhiti remained pure for many long years because an acharya was appointed.
Gurudeva has not given us that luxury and so now we are in an organisation of multiple gurus however that does not mean we have to go the way of isckon or the first gaudiya math. We do not have a powerful managment structure and it seems unlikely that anyone will impose one soon so I cannot see us ending up like Iskcon and at the same time there is little or not property to be fought over in the west so why would we break up like the first gaudiya math? I am hoping that perhaps we can remain together like a society of friends with a loose informal leadership that is all.
haribol and dandavats
“open discussion really is not being promoted in our society.”
Always a very bad sign. But in this case, since there is virtually no society and just a loose collection of individuals it really isn’t “cultic” in the truest sense of the word. Rather, it’s just a sad statement of the level of unwelcome.
I wrote to a senior Vaishnava, who shall remain nameless, and received this reply:
“dear whoever you are, I am not surprised by your concerns and cannot direct your heart for this is your own responsibility. You are completely free and most welcome to do what you consider is most favorable for your spiritual progress.”
Yes, our beloved Gurudeva has truly left the body and we are all alone now. I wouldn’t worry too much about the future of IPBYS since it bears no relationship to Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. What’s interesting is now the drive for funds is going in earnest alongside the alienation. Fancy how successful that will be.
It doesn’t really matter who is the chairman since there really isn’t anything to be a chairman of. A society of friends, a satsang must first be based on appreciation, love and desire for inclusion of the other person. Without that, you might as well be a business. No one can feel a welcome in “dear whoever you are.”
If this is a senior Vasihnav, I should convert to Buddhism. At least they have learned “compassion.” And if this is the form the leadership takes, you can forget descent into chaos. There will be nothing to fight over, the sangat will simply drift quietly away, belonging to no one here.
“no acharya was anounced”
That really was the beginning and the end of it. But I do respect and see the wisdom of Gurudeva.
Dandavats Maharajas , Vaisnavas , Vaisnavis ,I have noticed in my own life that pretty much every time I criticize some one I end up doing the same thing my self, as if by force – like a reaction .So it may well come to pass that we as a Sanga end up replicating some of the same scenarios we have collectively decried in Iskcon .Even so “there is no room for pessimism on this path . It is all optimism and hope”-HDG GourGovinda Maharaja.
Personally I was a full-time active member of Iskcon fro 1978 till 1997, when we were excommunicated for inviting and bringing Srila Gurudeva to Australia.My experiencing was that I was so happy , enjoyed it so much , wouldnt change it for the world and it was the best thing I could have done .And even though there were [are] unqualified persons pretending to be sad-Guru there were also ,in my humble opinion some self realized souls and one or two Utam MahaBhagavats.
So anyone that is worried about what will happen – please dont .Happily enjoy chanting and serving and preaching and going on parakrama and to festivals .Even if Gurudevas sanga commits all the same mistakes as Iskcon and more,that does not prevent us as individuals , or anyone else, from having a totally fulfilling happy Krishna conscious experience for the rest of our lives .
Srila Gurudeva has often said what we think of when we chant will come to us .So lets just throw all the fear and negativity far away , and have faith that Krishna is our friend and guardian and wants us to be happy .And Gurudeva wants us to be happy .The choice is ours .Be optimistic , hopeful , enthusiastic and grateful.We can be like that in any sanga or institution or no sanga .And ultimately the only way we can influence anything , anyone or any outcome is by our moods .
Radhe Radhe!!
Thanks Mathuranath ji, koti koti dandavat pranams to all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord, wherever they may reside, in the past, present in those who will come to Gauranga’s fold in the future.
Now in this emotionally charged time, just after the physical departure of our Gurupadapadma, it is key to take shelter of Sri Harinama and Seva while all the while remaining in a humble mood and intensely crying to once have the darshan of those soothing Lotus Feet of Sri Gurudeva ,which are the only rememdy for the materially afflicted jivas.
Although the issue of Guru Tattva must be understood properly, the process to do so is in my humble opinion, by becoming a sat sisya, true disciple. If we spend all our energies there, then success will be ours. Krishna will guide us in our hearts if we are eagerly and humbly crying for that transcendental sadhu-sanga, the highest good in this world. This is how I understod it from our Guru Maharaj Sri Srila Nitya-lila Pravista Om Visnupada 108 Gour Govinda Maharaja.
This my modest appeal to all; sit back and reflect. Take off that Mr. Fix-it cap and put on the garb of a true sevaka to serve and preserve. Embrace a sattvic mode of communication allowing Krishna to work through us. “Reform your self and society will follow,” as Srila Guru Maharaja would put it.
Humbly and blissfully.
Your aspiring servant.
Raghava Pandit das
Srila Narayana Goswami Maharaja: It means how to do kirtana, how to chant harinama as if I am in a calamity, how to stop aparadhas. After that, how bhava will come in our hearts with repentance and weeping for bhava and by remembering all the associates of Krsna who you want deeply, under whose guidance you want to be; like the sakhis, like the sakhas. Then remembering them pray that you should give me that bhava. So we should wait for that, they are everywhere, they will know our hearts and by their grace they can give suddha sattva. Pray to your Gurudeva, he can give you.
Dear prabhus,
Srila Gurudeva, like all our acaryas, always preached that the guru should be an uttama-adhikari coming down to madhyama-uttama platform (asakti) to preach. This ideal type of guru , although always available by sincerely crying and patiently waiting, is however quite rare, so Gurudeva has said since 2 years that all the sannyasis can initiate. There have been many recorded conversations to that extent. He, however said they should not do it if not qualified, and repeated, as many times before, that the minimum qualification was to have achieved the platform of madhyama-madhyama adhikara, which extends from ruci to asakti. So, this is the situation. It is expected that some will have difficulty in accepting that non mahabhagavatas can initiate in our sanga; that some will look in other branches of the Gaudiya-math for guidance; that some will say that all sannyasis can initiate since Gurudeva said so and will indulge in ardha-kukuti-nyaya, half-hen logic, neglecting the attached string of the minimum qualification required. It is already going on. There will be by-standers. Others will follow the leadership of the sannyasi body, others their mind…Let us keep our faith in Gurudeva and pray to him for inspiration.
“He, however said they should not do it if not qualified”
Now, when Gurudev is not in the body, who will be the authoritative voice to qualify for the unsuspecting, who is eligible to initiate? When people ask, we are scolded with simplistic accusations of “not being nice” when the potential for irreparable harm exists. Instead of allowing the sangat to wisely discriminate for the safety of new people and to prevent the terrible falldowns…now, any sannyasi is eligible…with no oversight?
“so Gurudeva has said since 2 years that all the sannyasis can initiate. There have been many recorded conversations to that extent.”
Were are these recordings that the public can use their discrimination to make the determination as to what exactly was said and intended? If Gurudev was speaking while in the body, that sannyasis can initiate, one can perceive it was in ritvik capacity as representative of the Guru. Now the IPBYS sannyasis all going to become independent Guru’s of their own choosing without even the wisdom of GBC oversight?
“He, however said they should not do it if not qualified, and repeated, as many times before, that the minimum qualification was to have achieved the platform of madhyama-madhyama adhikara”
And now are we to believe that since this is rare, just any old sannyasi will be an adequate substitute? Talk about a contradiction.
“So, this is the situation. It is expected that some will have difficulty in accepting that non mahabhagavatas can initiate in our sanga; that some will look in other branches of the Gaudiya-math for guidance; that some will say that all sannyasis can initiate since Gurudeva said so”
I’m not persuaded Gurudev intended that. I realize that is what seniors are interpreting Gurudev said. At least with Srila Prabhupada there were recordings which for decades people have gone back so doubts and concerns could be clarified. Where are the precise recordings on such an important point? Do they exist? Why can’t we hear them and in what context they were spoken?
“neglecting the attached string of the minimum qualification required.”
It’s exactly this problem that required a GBC in the past to remediate the outrageous abuses, because less than Madhyama adikari and you have a spiritually unwise person and a fall down waiting to happen.
“Others will follow the leadership of the sannyasi body..”
What leadership? A body of sannyasis having no Guru in the body and who constitute each of themselves as independent guru’s is not a leadership body, it’s a free-for-all. I’ve never even heard of such a thing.
“will follow the leadership of the sannyasi body, others their mind”
Or they will prefer the spiritual security of authentic leadership and traditional structure as in a time-tested Math.
Vaishnava bhakta,
those recordings are being transcribed and will be made available. No one is suggesting that just any sannyasi can do the job. So kindly refrain from badmouthing sincere devotees and please be patient instead of shooting from the hip.
Why do you negate and accuse me of “badmouthing sincere devotee’s?” If you bothered to read the thread I responded to very direct statements which were vague, general, and unclear.
1. We all NEED to view these recordings, not only their transcriptions.
2. Some very unusual things regarding Guru tattva and parampara have been proposed, you should expect that people will have sincere questions regarding the development and transformation of gurudeva’s society from Gaudiya Math with traditional disciplic sampraday lineage to another GBC.
3. Brajanatah Das himself posted that gurudeva gave the order than any sannyasi could initiate and “what is the harm?” Naturally some of us are well acquainted with the harms and don’t appreciate such generalities. Therefore it would be prudent to put before the general sangha (not simply the sannyasi body) what these changes are and justifications for why they’re being made.
4. Some people definitely will not like being part of another GBC society, especially one with no well-defined parampara. We have been told by seniors on this very forum that diksha initiations can come from outside the society and that everyone is free to go to whatever society or math they prefer and lead new people to that. Naturally it begs the question as to what loyalties and obedience is due to this society, what is the nature of it’s continuation and relationship to all of us, and you know, not just to leave us hanging or tell us to find the front door.
Dear Vaishnav Bhakta
Many devotees on this site are trying to give you good advise based on Srila Gurudeva’s directives and you simply want to throw their words “back in their faces”. This indicates that you are not actually sincere in your enquiry and that the suspicion, mistrust and devious intent that you falsly perceive in others is actually a reflection of yourself… ‘atmanam manyate jagat’
I feel very strongly that you are stepping over the line here and run the risk of beying ignored completely with your “chicken little”, “the sky is falling” fearmongering statements and irreverent, dismissive attitude to other devotees on this site.
And you are condemning me for having questions. You are accusing that I “badmouth” people when I discuss issues and not people. It seems this “sangha” is extremely punitive and closed to the very real concerns and issues that people have about ANY kind of GBC or general sannyasis initiating, promoting or accepting anything less than what we have been taught by Srila gurudeva regarding Guru Tattva that no one less than a madhyama adhikari would be dangerous risk to our spiritual lives. these issues, and the request that they should include the general sangha in some fun activities are really, really not…bad-mouthing anyone.
But some devotee’s here have bad-mouthed the hell out of me as a human person making a point that concerns my heart. Good luck because the attitudes you people have to any sincere discussion is really sad. Just read the incredible insults made against my person for comparison to anything I every said to any of you.
” and devious intent that you falsly perceive in others ”
You read people’s hearts and publically judge and condemn them too? Woo. You guys are totally going about this the wrong way. this is definitely not any way to reach people and retain them in any kind of fellowship. Good luck. that might work when Jesus is alive and with us, but when it’s just this hierarchy of preaching down at people and tolerating no input or dissent is just…not…going…to work.
The general message I take from these communications is how unwelcome the “non-sannyasis and little people are, who should only listen and not question people who are not my guru. how this is going to be a movement of Krishna Consciousness and not be a repeat of chasing people out of ISKCON if they ever dared to question?
No, the sky isn’t falling so long as people are free to undertake their spiritual search elsewhere. And if the goal is to retain gurudeva’s sangha, then it has to be a mutual respect between the regular people and their ideas and understanding and the “wisdom” of who wants to shepherd this flock…and without love, you people haven’t got anything. There’s not one thing more special about a senior if he doesn’t love the people he brings Krishna Consciousness to. There are lot of “important” scholars in the world, but precious few bhaktas who love and include everybody.
Go ahead ignore me. One day you’ll understand I was trying to say important things. At the very least, they mattered to me.
” and devious intent that you falsly perceive in others ”
Seriously should look up the recipe for disaster that led to fall-downs in almost every spiritual community and the wise ways they recovered from them and learned to relate with one another. So, it isn’t a “false” warning to tell you that over 90% of guru’s have fallen into a pit and carried their disciples with them, and that includes Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Hindu, etc, every kind of community…they all fall down. What is unusual is to find a Mahabhagavat who actually stays standing up. To Him we owe our hearts, but not to any other person who is struggling just the same as we are. they may be seniors with wisdom to share…but it’s not any unquestionable wisdom…that itself is the beginning of folly. but take it any way you wish. One day, you’ll know the truth of it.
“Prabhupad: This same man, he’s guru, so long he gives real knowledge of Krsna. And the same man, he’s ordinary man, as soon as he cannot give.
Same thing, just like a stone doll, when it is worshiped according to the regulative principles-Krsna. And the same doll, kept in the sculptor’s showroom, it is stone. So if we keep our movement pure, then you are as strong as Krsna. And as soon as you deviate from it, immediately, ordinary.
This is the secret. Now it is up to us, how to keep it pure. Then no enemy can kill us.” (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Room Conversation with Siddha-svarüpa — May 3, 1976, Honolulu.)
“I think that there are very few disciples of Srila Prabhupada who can raise their hands and claim to have been perfectly trained in pure devotion.
(2) As for the second point that “reason for this failure was the debased and degraded nature of his disciples”, the GBC are simply repeating Prabhupada’s own words verbatim. “They do not have any hereditary background. All are from mleccha and yavana family background. I have trained them according to my ability. They are also doing their best.”
http://backtobhakti.com/2010/04/refutation-against-latest-gbc-article-the-last-conversation/
If GBC has been accused of being debased and degraded, where is a new GBC society headed? You understand this is beyond childish claims of “like it or leave it.” Either that or maybe we owe an apology to the GBC since this society seems headed in that direction.
DandavatPranams Maharajas , Vaisnavas ,Vaisnavis,
I would just like to humbly suggest that the primary function off IPBYS will logically be to support and facilitate its members in the execution of devotional activities they cannot execute in an optimal manner left to their own resources .
Probably we all recognize that book publishing , printing , shipping and warehousing is not an individual option for most who wish to distribute Srila Gurudevas books . Similarly going on Parakrama of the Holy Dharms on ones own , while possible , is certainly greatly enhanced in the majority of cases when performed under guidance of more advanced devotees .
Less well acknowledged or recognized is the enhancing effect that a well organised proactive IPBYS could have on our individual daily lives .Even dull persons such as my self can notice how much better I feel when going to 2 programs a day when a visiting sannyassi or preacher is visiting .Hours of bajan ,kirtan and hari Katar every day for a week or two makes a huge difference to me anyway .
I personally feel we do have a quite hierarchical society . Those same persons before they took sannyass were ignored by most pretty much .Now everyone gathers twice daily and does a full program when ever they come .And when they leave there are substantially less gatherings for Bajan , kirtan and Hari Katar.I know there are the odd locations where fully attended programs go on daily or weekly all year , but it seems rare.
So my conclusion is that most people are followers ,and will do the right thing when a superior in the hierarchy influences the situation .Duty is Vaidy and love is raganuga . If it was raganuga it would be unbroken/ continuous .
So this is a humble request to those that Srila Gurudeva has appointed to observably modify devotees behavior and mentality by their influence .Please proactively support the establishment of local centers/temples throughout the world wherever there are groups of devotees living .
Without that explicit directive from the hierarchy I personally doubt it will happen , as has been the case for the last 14 years .And if it doesnt happen I personally consider it is a strong risk that the western [non- Indian] members will scatter to the four directions. And the IPBYS will become just another Indian society like most of the branches of the Gaudia Math tree, and no longer truly be an International society .
Radhe Radhe !!
Dandavat pranams Mathuranath prabhu and thank you for raising some interesting points. Yes, it is a fact that unless we come to the madhyam stage we tend to see the “external” in our estimation of a devotees spiritual advancement. This reminds me of when a “godbrother” friend of mine accepted the order of sannyas in ISKCON many years ago, I asked another devotee why he did that and he replied (as he knew him better than I did) “because he is ambitious”. This puzzled me a great deal at the time, I thought well If he is ambitious why doesn’t he ‘start a business’ or ‘run for mayor’ or something like that? I remember thinking ‘he should be devoid of such superficial ideas if his quest was to genuinely accept a renounced position’.
Sometimes it is a blessing to be ‘ignored’ as this opens our eyes to the dangers of pratistha and external vision that can affect us, as Guru and Krsna are always testing our humility and sincerity.
I know for a fact that if I had accepted the offers by the GBC (in the mid 90s) of ‘TP’ firstly of Auckland then Murwillumbah that this would have increased my ‘fame and pratistha’ (or infamy and compromise!) to the point where I could have been lost to myself and Krsna forever, or in the words of Senaca…
“On him does death lie heavily who, but too well known to all , dies to himself unknown”.
When my householder life ‘finished up’ in 1982 I made a kind of vow that I would not ever again wear a ‘white dhoti’ so I wore the saffron cloth when I was in ISKCON (for 16 years) but since beying in this sanga that has created a bit of a dilemma for me (in a funny sort of way!) as I am not actually living in a temple but on my own, in a house so I can’t wear ‘either!’ so I guess I’ll have to wear my ‘karmi’ clothes for the time beying at least.
We are very privileged in our sanga to have so many vaisnavas and vaisnavis who are very enthusiastic in spreading Srila Gurudevas message of harmony and bhakti and reading so many wonderful comments by devotees fills me with great optimism for the future of our sanga.
Thanks for ringing me last night, It’s always a pleasure to hear your thoughts prabhu!
Vaisnava Dasanudas
Suds
Dandavats brothers and sisters,
With all my respects for everyone, I think it would be better for new devotees to know by senior ones wich sannyasis are reliable (like Vana MJ) and wich ones is better to avoid following, in order to prevent bad surprises…
Hare Krsna. I am very fallen too, but I do not think it is very nice to write…”wich ones is better to avoid following”. We have IPBYS, some kind of hierarchie has been set up, this should be known by new comers. Before leaving Gurudeva has approved IPBYS, it can be seen on video, looking for guidance, we have guidance, what more to ask ? With all my respects for everyone too, thank you.
All glories to assembled devotees:
Isa das has stated in a previous post: ” Vaisnav Bhakta, Why are you so hard?, Have you no heart? Are you not a kind hearted merciful Vaisnava ? Srila Gurudeva has just left our sight and you are stabbing our hearts with sharp knives”.
Also feeling the same mood as Isa das, I take my leave of this particular site .
All glories to the developing Pure Bhakti Society of Srila Gurudeva. All glories to those who are selflessly serving their Gurupada padma, and who have developed the quality of tolerance, for which I am a stranger to.
If asking questions and stating doubts and concerns is the equivalent of “stabbing hearts with sharp knives,” and invitation for others to insult and demean on a personal level in order to silence and shame, then this sangha is in more trouble than can be fixed by any new GBC.
Haribol
Feeling like looking for another society.
I left ISCKON institution and for last 11 years I have been learning un-institutional approach to life from large amount of preachers… not to come back to new institution.
I make me sick.
Prefer acarya system from Gaudya Math not again, please
IPBYS Gurus Vrnda kee Jaya!
Murli
Haribol, Murali
I am sure you have felt Gurudeva’s love for you. It can never be lost, and it is always with you. What is in your heart, does not depend on any institution.
But Srila Gurudeva, who we all love, wanted ” society”, and that only to facilitate our association with one another, and to serve each other, and to glorify Sri Sri Radha Krsna. If we keep this love in the forefront of our lives, and everyday think of how we can make Srila Gurudeva happy, and to fulfill his wish, by some small thing we can contribute, then we will always feel happy.
Even if people wish to abuse us, or misunderstand us, or even if we see things happening we do not like around us, still whatever negative thing we may experience, CAN NEVER STOP US FROM LOVING SRILA GURUDEVA.
Lord Caitanya himself prayed that even if Krsna handles him roughly, He is still His Lord unconditionally.
Even though Srila Prabhupada’s own mission, for which I served many years, does not welcome me anymore, because of my connection with Srila Gurudeva, still I love Prabhupada and that love helps me stay strong. Real love cannot be broken. Institution or no institution,,,,,love cannot be broken.
And where we will feel that love,,,,,,,that is where we will serve……………………………..
“Because we are familiar with a particular figure and accept that as our guru we should not become misled. The important thing is what he says, his instructions. That is attracting our inner hearts. I am not this body. I am the inquirer. That this which is satisfying me, drawing the inquirer to the inquired-I must try to locate that thing in him. I must not rely on material calculation. I am not this body. Who am I, the disciple? Am I only this body, this figure, this color, this caste? Or am I this temperament, this scholarship and intellectualism? No. I am he who has come to seek. Who is the party within me, and who is… the party in guru? We must be fully awake to that. What is the inner thing? I have come for that. We must be awake to our own interest. There is the relative principle and the absolute principle. We shall have to eliminate the form, ignore the form; we shall always have to keep the spirit. Otherwise, we become form worshiper, idol worshipers.” ~
Swami BR Sridhara (Sri Guru and His Grace)
BV Sridhar Maharaja keep direct disciplic succession in his Matha. So his words must be reconciled to the fact that he never created an independent society of sangha apart from a living Guru.
“What is the inner thing? I have come for that.”
He was talking within the context of intact Guru parampara and pure siddhantic Guru Tattva.
To the assembled devotees,
So many visions are being shared, and many ideas put forward. When all is said and done, there will be a final decision made as how to implement ” the guru’s order”.
The trusted devotees , close to Gurudeva’s heart will advise us on the final decision, and those of us who “trust” will “follow” and feel satisfied, and those who “doubt”, and have their own ideas will naturally drift away. This is the universal law of life, it’s natural. Birds of the same feather flock together.
For those of us having once tasted the truth that was emanating from the lips of the pure devotee, will always recognize that taste and quality of his eternal truth, wherever it may re-surface. Because we will remember the feeling and taste of truth which we hold in our hearts, in can never be lost.
When so many glow worms, taking advantage of the disappearance of the sun of guru, may propose their words of direction, they simply call us to board a stone boat.
I have faith that those of us who have tasted the truth, won’t lose it. No matter what form that truth takes in the future, we will recognize it.
I have faith in those who are close to Gurudeva’s heart, and I have faith that in their heart, they preserve the truth of Srila Gurudeva, and will share it with others. This Divine transmission of truth from the heart of the guru, to the heart of the disciple is never lost. Pure bhakti evolves around this principle, and whatever is necessary to establish gurudeva’s wish of a society will grow around this principle.
“When so many glow worms, taking advantage of the disappearance of the sun of guru, may propose their words of direction, they simply call us to board a stone boat.”
Perhaps. And then there’s this other truth in the concern shared by Mathuranatha das. You realize referring to people as “glow-worms” when we have been invited to share our perspectives is an invalidation for no reason. It’s not within our power to change things. It is within our power to make our concerns heard.
“Maybe a few travelling sannyassis and the odd festival and parakram will be enough to maintain out tiny cult , but dont we want to grow ?Without outlets a retailer loses customers to their competitors .Without a visible presence in the marketplace[of the holy name]our brand will find it hard to maintain market share.
Even last week one of Srila Gurudevas sannyassis was here and did mention how Srila Gurudevas did not come to build big big temples but came to get us to build a temple in our hearts .He was speaking to a group of 15 including children while at the local Iskcon Temple and 900acre farm there was a Kuli festival for hundreds of people going on including many of Gurudevas disciples .Generally more of Gurudevas disciples attend the opulent festivals at Iskcon than come to see Gurudevas sannyasis in devotees houses .And thats while Srila Gurudeva was present .”
At some point the validity of these observations will be apparent without having to be stated. How they are dealt with is out of our hands, but certainly people have the freedom and right to express their concerns and share their ideas without feeling invalidated or chastised for it. these aren’t even criticisms. Glowworms is it? Okay. Yes, those who will go, will go. You certainly aren’t helping anyone feel welcome. Perhaps you could reflect a bit on that.
Hari Hari,
I was referring to the glow worms, who immediately after Srila Prabhpada’s departure, misunderstood his instructions, and took the opportunity of the brilliance of his sun like presence being absent, to guide us onto their stone boat. If the shoe fits, what can I do about it.
Our imperfect senses, the ability to commit mistakes, the cheating propensity and being subject to illusion is present in all conditioned souls. This is what makes our relationships rocky,,,,WHEN WE MISUNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.
I was not thinking of you personally when I wrote it.
For those souls, who feel the need to go to other spiritual organizations, because they have a certain need or desire to be fulfilled, that is the individual use of free will that no one can control, even God Himself does not interfere with our minute independence.
Those who want pure bhakti, will go where pure bhakti is available. Those who want to experience the comfort of family, society, friendship and love found in spiritual festivals, and “enjoy themselves” will go where that is available. Krsna is a kind God, for He Himself allows us to use our free will, however we like.
But He tells us we won’t be fully satisfied without the taste of “pure bhakti”. This information is found in scripture and we have heard it from the lips of pure devotees. But Krsna NEVER FORCES, OR LEGISLATES. Otherwise our approach to him, would not be called real love. Bhakti is voluntary.
As mentioned before, the calf out of a thousand cows, knows which one is it’s mother. Everyone will gravitate to the place they belong, and there is nothing wrong in that. Those who taste pure bhakti, in association know this. We can invite others to taste it as well. But if they don’t want to,,,,,,,then? Everyone will use their free will, according to where they are at. That is God’s plan, not ours.
Gaura prema anandi…….
I would have stopped posting some time ago except I’m reacting to you now. You have your view of things and can never make anyone else’s thinking become like yours. But it doesn’t mean we have to be unpleasant to each other. It’s very simple, if something is happening with Srila Gurudeva’s disciples and I want to attend, I can. Otherwise, we’re all free to go wherever. I wish the very best success for this sangha. I would love to be some worthwhile part of it but really, there isn’t anything much to be a part of. Gurudev is still the greatest treasure however unworthy I may be.
Best of luck to you Pracetana dasi and all.
Nitai, guna mani…………
” there isn’t anything much to be a part of ? ”
I do not agree with your vision Vaishnav Bhakta.
Well , we are all entitled to our own vision. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see a wonderful sangha here, with pure souls, who are dedicated, selfless, and full of love for Srila Gurudeva. That is not “anything”, but it is “something”, so rare and so costly, that in reality not everyone can afford to pay the price for it.
That price is ” full surrender”.
That price is ” seeing the snake, but having faith in the master’s words, that it is only a rope”
Srila Gurudeva’s society and his sangha “is something”. Just as Srila Prabhupada, told a passer by on a park bench one day, in the 60′s, when we arrived in America. Prabhupada told him, :” I see many temples, centers, and books being distributed.”
Sometimes “we”, as conditioned souls can’t see the plan of the Lord, and how it will unfold. But the pure devotee can, because he has transcendental vision. He has strong faith in the Lord, in His guidance, in His protection. On the contrary “we”, may not be on that level, so we don’t see it. It doesn’t mean the Divine Plan does not exist, or will not manifest in time.
Rome was not built in a day. We can’t expect to have instant anything, according to “our” liking. Who are ” we” to “demand such things”.
I choose to see the beauty of Gurudeva’s Sangha, and I feel part of his glorious vision, and I feel included in his generous love and compassion. And to me that is the best luck of all. I wish everyone could feel that love too, because it is so sweet. I wish everyone could have such strong faith, because it makes one feel very comforted and protected.
“Those who want pure bhakti, will go where pure bhakti is available. Those who want to experience the comfort of family, society, friendship and love found in spiritual festivals, and “enjoy themselves” will go where that is available.”
Pure Bhakti is only available in this society? Is only available listening to the once a year katha from an occasional sannyasi?
>> there isn’t anything much to be a part of ?<<
"I do not agree with your vision Vaishnav Bhakta.
Well , we are all entitled to our own vision. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see a wonderful sangha here"
What I said has nothing to do with any person's qualities…especially when all are so spread apart with no real activities to draw or hold together. What is wrong with pointing out the successes of ISKCON in bringing sangha together with fun activities, how is that a failure of bhakti?
……….”aggravation, irritability, stubbornness, rudeness, impetus action leading to anger and argument is an energy not worthy of attention.”
Vaisnav Bhakta, hiding behind your anonomyous identity, for fear of being ostrasized, you want to hear us say: “yes, your are right, you will always be right, and only you can be right, and we are all wrong.” You want to hear us say: ” only you have the perfect answer, only you understand clearly”. And thus by the force of your ego you will demand your way into the internet assembly of devotees here to tell us, that without your guidance, we will all be misled, by those who Srila Gurudeva trusted.
I am not in the market to buy what you are selling. And perhaps some other devotees here feel the same way.
No matter how many times, the devotees have tried to communicate with you, you continue to see the negative, and you brush off our concerns.
Pracetana devi really you need to take a look at the way you represent Gurudeva’s sangha. By endlessly labeling, criticizing, insulting me constantly on almost every post. Is this really a reflection of what we are to expect from gurudeva;’s new society? All I have done is state my points, raise some objections and make some recommendations that have not to do with anyone. I have never pretended to represent the sangha the way you have with your constant “us” versus “Vaishnav Bhakta” positions.
Dear, seriously, take a deep breath. I hear your points and while I may disagree, I’m not bashing you on any personal level. You really want to over-control and shut people up. This is alone does a diservice to Gurudeva’s sangha.
You’re going on about ego, and dearie, you don’t even know who I am that my actual ego could be invested in these communications. These are just my personal viewpoint. Why do you hate that so much? How does it hurt you for another person to have a different opinion?
Dear Devotees,
There is a committee tasked with preparing a position paper about the topic of guru-tattva and disciplic succession. More to follow.
Guru tattva ki jaya. BV Vaikhanas Maharaja ki jaya ! Gaura pramanand and Hari bolo.
Dandavats Maharajas Vaisnavas Vasinavis ,
Without getting into the “quality “issue we have all observed Iskcons continued reasonable cohesiveness and growth since the disappearance of BVS.Prabupada. As it is by no means guaranteed that Srila Gurudevas Sanga will remain united or continue to grow , perhaps we should try and understand what Iskcon got right as opposed to focusing on the things done wrongly .
Even if we[as I,m sure we do] have the correct understanding on all tatva and siddanta ,and Radhadasyam is firmly fixed as our goal , how much will it benefit the world if Gurudevas society stagnates and dwindles or even fragments.
One thing I personally think that lead to Iskcons [and many other successful cultural , political ,social and business groups] cohesiveness and growth was their extensive network of functional centers [temples] . Human beings are basically herd animals and if they dont have some where to congregate they will join another herd .
I personally believe that while the need for extensive infrastructure was mistakenly ignored while Srila Gurudeva was on the planet , He compensated by His supremely attractive , loving and caring nature .Now ,if its not to late already , its imperative, to maintain a sense of identity , cohesion and growth that we quickly establish a comprehensive network of cultural centers all around the world .
And as a priority , above sorting out the Sannyassi/Guru initiation question , because if we loose our congregations initiation wont even be an issue .In a sense we now need to transform from a transcendental personality cult into a distinctly unique self-sustaining culture.I dont know about other countries , but here in Australia all the minorities have their cultural centers or clubs .Greek clubs, Italian clubs ,Polish clubs ,Ukranian clubs, Irish clubs etc etc where their members regularly gather and sing their ethnic songs ,do their traditional dances /music and eat their traditional foods.That way they keep their unique and individual culture alive in a foreign land .
It worked for Iskcon also and would work for us I believe .My question is what will happen if we dont? Will we lose our unique set of beliefs and practices?If its even a possibility why risk it?Maybe a few travelling sannyassis and the odd festival and parakram will be enough to maintain out tiny cult , but dont we want to grow ?Without outlets a retailer loses customers to their competitors .Without a visible presence in the marketplace[of the holy name]our brand will find it hard to maintain market share.
Even last week one of Srila Gurudevas sannyassis was here and did mention how Srila Gurudevas did not come to build big big temples but came to get us to build a temple in our hearts .He was speaking to a group of 15 including children while at the local Iskcon Temple and 900acre farm there was a Kuli festival for hundreds of people going on including many of Gurudevas disciples .Generally more of Gurudevas disciples attend the opulent festivals at Iskcon than come to see Gurudevas sannyasis in devotees houses .And thats while Srila Gurudeva was present .The obvious trend will be difficult to reverse without adopting the same stratagem.Most conditioned souls really like big , beautiful , opulent, spacious facilities .BVS.Prabupada arranged for that all around the world and Srila Gurudeva did it Himself in India and requested us to do it in the west.I personally think we basically missed that point of practical seva in amongst all the tatva, siddanta and nectarian lila katar .Now its time to catch up or die out .
Radhe !Radhe!!
First ISKCON has a continuing parampara. Thats key to growth with an intact identity. The moment you start talking about watering down whoever can initiate or taking initiation from anywhere you like,,,it’s not “liberal” it’s loss of identity. We may all have come from other Gurus, but what united us was Srila Gurudev. So what has to be central is some continuation of His legacy and the guiding hand of those few who correctly transmit His mission to the future.
So the primary issue is not buildings (since that takes money and a large loyal base of “inspired” benefactors) which will not appear when the very nature of the society has shifted so that continuation is even being discussed. Opening new temples like step 2 or 3.
ISKCON guru’s are critical because they initiate into ISKCON. So that’s what I was asking earlier who is going to initiate into the International Pure bhakti Yoga Society? Otherwise, there isn’t a society. It’s just a board meeting and memorial to preserve Srila Gurudev’s teaching legacy. There is no continuation.
So ISKCON has a continued identity. Waiting 1 year, 10 years to initiate new people is certain death. I respect the cautious wisdom in such a request given the mass sannyasi initiations set-up, due to inability to effectively oversee quality or prevent potential abuses. And this is why I think (please bear with my foolishness) we need only a small few (like 5 or 10) of the seniormost respected Vaishnavas/Vaishnavis recognized by Srila Gurudeva and the entire sangha as being of (or close to) Madhyama adikari platform to be authorized for spiritual leadership role as acting shiksa, diksha and sannyasi initiating gurus for the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society. Or it can never be a living society that we can all belong to and is just a loose collection of people from anywhere and going anywhere. If ISKCON was just a general yoga society of anybody’s we wouldn’t be having this convo because they would have no identity to succeed or fail with.
No collection of individually owned and operated temples can ever take the place of solidifying this first step which is the only glue which can hold the sangha to the legacy of Srila Gurudeva, and that is Parampara. Even if it isn’t the traditional disciplic lineage, it can be the same as what ISKCON has. And we can do better. Instead of voting in gurus by popularity, start now by hand selecting only the very purest, most trustworthy, most reliable seniors to represent transmission of this new society. Consider the wisdom of ISKCON’s reform, prepare and authorize the board to oversee and discipline any irregularity to protect the future from scandal. Protect Srila Gurudeva’s society and legacy by having high standards and create a system of accountability and transparency from the beginning.
If we have even 5 or 10 senior Vaishnavs to look after the spiritual guidance and leadership, then the temples are not being built in a memory…but as living, thriving continuations of parampara.
But the STRENGTH of the parampara can only be the quality, the vibrance, the inspired capability and purity of the designated seniors who are given the recognition to become SOLE initiating Guru’s for the society. And if they are too humble to accept, then they must be pushed into it by the management board! Otherwise what will happen if the true seniors don’t step up, is the million unqualified people will promote themselves and step into those positions and lead off the cliff.
Yes, people need a place. But the place isn’t any temple, it’s the shelter of belonging to a sangha which has a designated wise and mature leadership, a clear and beautiful mission, and a place and purpose to donate seva as being a part of something great. this is the FIRST temple. After that the building doesn’t matter so much. It can even be humble and lowly. If the people are inspired to belong and continue and have a powerful identity, then more and more will come and the movement will grow. And then the buildings can become larger.
So the first thing ISKCON did right was actually keep parampara intact, in establishing both a GBC and system of initiating gurus. They held onto their identity and that gave them survivability.
People will tolerate poverty of buildings if there is a wealth of wisdom, love, genuine affection and belonging. But all I hear sounds like liberality to the point of fragmentation. There has to be some kind of continuation of parampara in which people can continue to belong, unite and propagate. It can’t just be open to anybody in some other Math or any local sannyasi. Only the highest caliber Vaishnavs in the society capable of educating properly in the message and mission of our Acharya Gurudev’s Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayan Maharaja.
ISKCON started with 11 gurus, and when that had problems, they can be praised for having the managerial stability to steer the movement away from disaster and set up a system with some accountability. Why not start with the system of accountability and place initiations into the hands of only the most trusted, seniormost and best qualified as recognized by the seniors themselves?
Yes, one of them should be Syamarani Didi. (It should not be like 9 men and 1 woman either.) Since it is a new society and not a true disciplic parampara that has to carry on strict tradition, why not allow for some kind of sannyasinis and at least continue with authorizing brahmacharinis ashrams. Also why promote married families as preachers and they can use their homes for satsang in areas where there is no temple. That way it is not all top heavy with only sannyasi male preachers even if gurudev wants them to be the primary and central voice. Other voices can be heard too. That way everybody has an important role and job and nobody is marginalized as insignificant. And the more preachers, the more people who want Krishna Consciousness and come for initiations, the more the society grows as a living entity.
2. management board with oversight to set boundaries to authorize and police behaviors of sannyasis, preachers and sangha to prevent abuses, cruelties, cliques, mismanagement, etc as well as establishing local committees centered around local sannyasis or married preachers of the society to reach out to sangha in meaningful way to prevent isolation and actively promote involvement.
3. Promote active involvement of the local sangha in the MISSION of Srila Gurudeva however the leadership now chooses to define it, whether to enliven book distribution, parikrama and kartikk organizers. Start committee projects such as find affordable land for temples, setting up small temples in homes where people can regularly gather for satsang until temples can be built. Training of pujaris. Educational offerings like ISKCON university or on-line offerings. Recognition for completion in coursework that trained people can become authorized teachers and preachers, pujaris, distributors, organizers, managers, cooks, flower decorators, some small business ideas to raise money for these things like selling devotee oriented items.
Okay you all may laugh or cry, it was just my ideas only.
“Generally more of Gurudevas disciples attend the opulent festivals at Iskcon than come to see Gurudevas sannyasis in devotees houses.And thats while Srila Gurudeva was present..”
Well that’s because sometimes only preaching is boring. So another thing is to have committees where people can set up festivals and fun things for certain auspicious dates even if not opulent. Also fun would be retreats, pic-nics, community kirtan in the park, as well as more formal sankirtana and book distribution. Maybe sometimes put on art displays, etc or set-up weekend crafts projects that promote Krishna Consciousness for the kids. Maybe even contests. It would also be great to have some cow-protection farms. Maybe if the society can’t afford temples it could invest in cow farms and set up ashrams or families living close together like for health, nutritious lifestyle and well like a mini New Vrindavan kind of thing. It would be more useful if families could be close and financially supportive also have clean milk and cheese and organic vegetables to sell. Plus if you promote arts & crafts that could also be helpful to support a lot of projects.
I,m having a break from the Sannyassi/Guru/initiation issue,for a little while .Centers/temples is a less controversial subject .
Both BVS Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva were against centralized management and wanted the individual centers to be financially and managerially independent .So if we can make a template of a model center that is functioning successfully then we can replicate that model all around the world .
I still think you need central handful of recognized spiritual heads for identifying and unifying the society. Even though it’s annoying, it’s like the biggest point. but go with temples if you like. I just don’t see how that could compare at this point with the opulent ones. I personally wouldn’t want a temple for a Guru who’s not in the body if respected Guru’s of the society who are in the body couldn’t come to visit it and bless all with their presence. It would be a great excuse for a grand festival! It would be something to sing about. The other just makes me so sad.
Dandavat pranams to all Maharajas and Devotees.
In the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur…………
“There are two types of dharmadvajis – the hypocrites and the fools, or the cheaters and the cheated. Such hypocrisy in jnana-kanda and karma-kanda is also condemned. In devotional service, this hypocrisy ruins everything. Better to associate with sense enjoyers, for in this world there is no worse association than the dharmadvaji. The deceitful dharmadvajis accept the signs of dharma with a desire to cheat the world and to fulfill their crooked desires they cheat the foolish in their rascaldom. Some of them become gurus and others become disciples and by trickery they accumulate wealth, women, false-prestige and material assets. If one gives up the association of crooked hypocrites, then he can honestly engage in devotional service.”
Vaishnava ke ?
To all the assembled devotees:
Please accept my humble obeisancies.
” aparadha-shasrani
kriyante har-nisham maya
dasi ham iti mam matva
kshamasva madhusudana”
” Thousands of offenses are performed by me day and night , but thinking of me as your servant, kindly forgive them Oh Madhusudana”
“bhaktya vihina aparadha-laksaih; ksiptas ca kamadi-taranga-madhye; krpamayi tvam saranam prapanna; vrnde numas te caranaravindam”
” Oh merciful Vrnda-devi, devoid of devotion and guilty of unlimited offences, I am being tossed about in the ocean of material existence by the turbulent waves of lust, anger, greed and other inauspicious qualities. Therefore I take shelter of you as I offer pranama unto your lotus feet”
I humbly beg to share the following words of Srila Prabhupada, from S.B. C7 ch.14 T39 purport:
” In Satya yuga, every person was spiritually advanced and there was no envy between great personalities. Gradually, however, because of material contamination with the advance of the ages, DISRESPECTFUL DEALINGS APPEARED EVEN AMONG BRAHMANAS AND VAISNAVAS…….Formerly, all activities were performed in connection with Visnu, but after Satya-yuga there were symptoms of DISRESPECTFUL DEALINGS AMONG VAISNAVAS.
………..a powerful Vaisnava who has converted others into Vaisnavas is to be worshiped, but because of material contamination, sometimes such an exalted Vaisnava is disrespected by other, minor Vaisnavas…….
Text 38: ” O King Yudhisthira, the Supersoul in every body gives intelligence to the individual soul, ACCORDING TO HIS CAPACITY FOR UNDERSTANDING…..”
It seems the thread of conversation here can become a learning experience for all of us if we adopt the attitude of understanding that:
” submissive humble inquiry”…. is compared to a valley that gathers pure rain water, which nourishes the grass, feeds the animals, sustains and protects all who devotees who live in this valley of humble attitude.
“demanding, challenging inquiry”…is compared to a sharp mountain peak, that cannot hold the rain of mercy or understanding, and merely serves to pierce the hearts of everyone, with the elevation of it’s own pride.
If anyone of us wants to understand something, or inquire about some relevant subject matter, we have been instructed by our Guru varga to adopt the attitude of “humble and submissive inquiry”. Such inquiry will bring the satisfying result of peace to the heart, and satisfaction to the soul. Otherwise the “demon of doubt”, will never go away and will continue to torment our soul with dissatisfaction, and lack of trust.
Doubts are compared to demons, because demons cause pain, and for the doubting soul, there is never any happiness in this world or the next.
The soothing words of the Great Souls, like Srila Sridhara Maharaja comfort us by saying: ” So we must not allow ourselves to be discouraged under any circumstances, however acute they may appearently seem to us. KRSNA IS THERE. As much as the circumstances appear to oppose us, it is not really so. If only we can develop the right VISION, then the smiling face of the Lord will appear from behind the scene. Krsna speaks: “Your anxiety will subside when you come to understand that everything is in “MY HANDS”, and that I am not your enemy, rather I am your friend. I have a friendly relationship with you all. I am all in all, I am your well wisher and friend. When you come to realize this you will be in real peace. Otherwise you will always have worry without end.”
All glories to the illuminated words of our great masters!
Attainment of Real Peace
” In the midst of the hurricane of the material world, everything changes very quickly, but if one remains silent and simply observes the actions and reactions of the hurricane, he is understood to be liberated. The real qualification of a liberated soul is that he remains Krsna Conscious undisturbed by the actions and reactions of the material energy. Such a liberated person is always jubilant. He never laments or aspires for anything. Since everything is supplied by the Supreme Lord, the living entity being fully dependent on Him, should not protest or accept anything in terms of his personal sense gratification, rather he should receive everything as the mercy of the Lord and remain steady in all circumstances.”
All glories to Srila Prabhupada ! SB C6-12-13
We worry and doubt because our faith and trust in God is not developed. Doubts are demons. To slay the demon of doubt requires the weapon of knowledge, and “IN GOD WE TRUST”, ATTITUDE.
“Sometimes due to Providential Impediments, we may observe unwarrented conduct in others, but such faulty behavior in others can never remain a permanent habit.”
“Temporary faults that still remain in the heart become purified by the practice of bhakti. Anyone who will sit down peacefully and concentrate on their japa in front of Tulasi Maharani finds peace, to be able to accept whatever situation of life comes to them by destiny.”
I personally don’t fear, for Gurudeva’s Sangha remaining pure, if the devotees deal with one other in love and trust and respect. And if there is a problem of demoniac doubt, or impure behavior then sastra allows one a “Careful critique of someone’s faults, if the intention is to ensure that one attains his ultimate welfare, or for one’s own spiritual welfare, or if by such reflection benefit to the world is had.”
“..Since everything is dependent on the Supreme Will of the Lord, one should be equipoised in fame and defamation, victory and defeat, life and death. In their effects represented as happiness and distress, one should maintain oneself in equilibrium without anxiety..”
Krsna is Present in His Holy Name……that shelter will always keep us save, and guide to bonafide Vaisnava’s who are capable of giving us a real connection to God, and to God’s peace.
Hari Nama Sankiratanm Ki Jaya
Please forgive my offences, in trying to clear the doubts of Vaisnav Bhakta, obviously I am not qualified to help him, and perhaps the more advanced Vaisnava’s of this internet assembly can come forward with some illuminating words of wisdom and compassion. One has to be an expert swimmer to save a drowning man. I can only do a little dog paddling, and am now headed for the shore, to take shelter of my japa mala……………..
All glories to this unfolding path of Bhakti, in which we learn powerful lessons every day in it’s school of life.
Hari Hari
“Please forgive my offences, in trying to clear the doubts of Vaisnav Bhakta, obviously I am not qualified to help him”
Why don’t you stop singling me out for one thing. It’s getting to be beyond an attack. I have concerns that I bring to this forum and general sangha. Quite some time ago I said I wasn’t even talking to you.
“And if there is a problem of demoniac doubt, or impure behavior then sastra allows one a “Careful critique of someone’s faults”
The point many have already made is when lesser unqualified gurus are elevated before the sangat, NOBODY can fault them without become made objects of ostracism themselves for daring to question.
My concern is already clear. My doubts are already clear. And if you are an honest person, you will see that I’,m not alone and stop trying to invalidate my doubts and concerns by long diatribes about me being an insignificant crow among swans, or a stinking arrogant hateful person for daring to have my say, or any demoniac doubter or dissenter or agent.
Apart from all that mess, the point has always been a simple one: I don’t agree that general sannyasis are qualified to become diksha gurus. One senior here asked the rhetorical question, “What is the harm,” and I answered it by reminding of the disastrous fall downs and scandals that hit the ISKCON community including the painful situation of sexual abuses in Gurukulas.
And guess what, WE as adults might know the Guru Tattva and read the Shastras, but the newer people, the kids, they trust all of us. So we have a dharmic obligation to voice doubts and concerns and not have to grovel or subjugate our opinions when we don’t think their being heard.
There might be diksa gurus, but what about harinam and sanyas guru. Once I met a very nice devotee, he got harinam from Srila Prabhupada, diksa from Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja and sanyas from Puri Maharaja. He had heard Sridhar Maharaja spoke from a tape, he wanted to meet him but the devotee who was playing the tape would not tell him who e was(ISKCON/Gaudiya Matha I suppose ?) but he succeeded in meeting him and took shelter of him. Let’s think about all those who met Srila Prabhupada when he went to New-York, there was no confusion at that time, all were fallen, like we are and they naturally took shelter of Srila Prabhupada, Krsna must have inspired them from within. Anything bad that happened since then proves that the influences of Kali yuga are so strong, so it is natural to be worried. As far as I am concerned, knowing this movement since 30 years, as imperfect as any conditioned soul may be, I heard Gurudeva speak so many times of love and affection, of seniors and juniors. So we should position ourselves rightly and don’t be hopeless. Srila Gurudeva was always surrounded by the best of vaisnavas in which we should have confidence and be able to discuss to clarify any doubts. But, before calling ourselves vaishnavas, talk about diksa, siksa, sanga, we should remember we are human beings and try not to hurt anyone’s feelings. The bhakti creeper is very delicate and tender and needs sweet water in order to grow nicely. Srila Gour Govinda Swami used to say that Krsna is karsana (attracts)and Balaram akarsana (removes). Lord Balarama, Haladara, plows the field of our heart in order to make it fit to attract (karsana)… tomara hridaye sada Govinda visrama…Ohe Vaisnava Thakura, Krsna Krsna bole dai tava pace pace. Gour premanande and Hari bolo.
You at least make me laugh vaishnava bhakta…reading your stuff . You dont let up for a moment and you know how to really find the weak spots , dont you .
Definately a personality type that gains some comfort in doing so .
But as I said I find myself having a little chuckle at your stuff . I think that means i must be a bit twisted or a good sense of humour .
And also it is bad form to cut and past the words of a Mahabhagavat and hide behind them, out of context to chastise someone whose opinion or approach that “you personally” don’t care for. You cannot speak for the Mahabhagavat nor manipulate his glorious words that way. Let the words alone speak and don’t tack on your personal opinions or my name, please. THAT is an aparadha.
Respected Pracetana Mataji, thank you, personally for me this your posting was enlightening and enriching. Really.
Jay Gaura-bhakta-vrinda
Did someone mention Gurukulis who were victims of sexual abuse? My name is Madhava Das, I was raised in gurukula from birth and I was very blessed to behold our beloved Srila Gurudeva on the night of November 14th 1977 as he walked into the Krsna Balarama mandir with a couple of his Vaisnava friends to sing to Srila Prabhupada who had only just hours before left this world. I was so blessed with mercy to be given the opportunity to massage Srila Prabhupada’s feet as he left this world and although I was only 6 years old I was much more concerned with watching our beloved Srila Gurudeva receive Srila Prabhupada’s body into the samadhi pit instead of playing with my other friends. Although I was on a number of occasions sexually abused in gurukula I would not change a single experience I have had because I know deep in my heart that Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva will always protect us.
My personal feeling is that out of respect for the most Saintly being that has walked the plane of this Earth, Srila Gurudeva, that we honour him by refraining from giving initiations for one year. Why is it that we all took shelter of Srila Gurudeva? Whilst Gurudeva was with us there were many high class Vaisnavas that we could have taken Harinama from but we did not turn to them we turned to the purest of the pure, the highest of the high because only they can really give initiation and diksa.
We may never ever really understand how fortunate we were to have so much love and affection from our beloved Gurudeva. We are all at a very raw stage of grieving for our Gurudeva who is everything to us in this world. At this time I encourage all of Gurudeva’s family to love and support each other in a very deep and meaningful way and then I have no doubt that Gurudeva himself will reveal deep in our hearts how we can serve him, whether it is part of an organisation or individually.
Peace and love
Madhava Das
Haribolo
Dear Madhava Das “Although I was on a number of occasions sexually abused in gurukula I would not change a single experience I have had because I know deep in my heart that Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva will always protect us.” This is very painful to read, at the same time suprising that, you did not leave, you found the strenght to go on. This is a very nice, beautiful and brave lesson you are giving here. To ‘dedramatise’ this very sad serious and grave issue of abuses, I often think of Lord Indra becoming a pig or Lord Brahma chasing after his own daughter, and other such stories. Really, as was saying Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, “This is not a place for a gentleman”. Jaya and haribolo
Very nice post Madhava . The nicest post I have read here . Beautifully accepting and gratefull for what you have recieved from your Gurus who are of the highest stage of perfection.
And your request to postpone any initiations within the sanga is a very valid and vital request that should very much be respected by those who are wanting to intiate . Show respect to the hardships and loss of Gurudevs disciples and dont create unbalance right now. Let some time pass , one year and then again come together and have a fresh look at what path to take. it is always best to not act in rashness or grief or in any emotive state and you all are , fresh in that state now.
Shanti , be still and see what unfolds .
Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja is so nice. Always nice to look at him and hear from him.
Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaj ki Jai ! ! ! ! ! !
Dandavats everyone .
Everyone has different levels of sukriti and deserves a different level of Guru or religious teacher .So Krishna is arranging for those that deserve them Utam Guru , Madyam Guru ,Kanista gurus , sahjia Gurus , muslim imams , Christian priests etc. Krishna is providing what we deserve .
Real Guru always does the will of the Lord .So if BVS.Prabhupada or Srila Gurudeva arrange to leave a few Kanista {or even Sahaja]Gurus thats part of Krishnas plan .Will we criticize Guru and Krishna ?
Why did Prabhupada , Srila SridharaMaharaja etc and Gurudeva leave sannyasis/Gurus {“sannyas means Guru for the whole of society” –HDG GourGovinga Swami] that are conditioned souls?.Firstly its Krishnas plan they should be available .Secondly how else can Krishna practically create madyama or kanista vaisnava Gurus and have them accepted except by having them partly trained by a Vaisnava Acharya.
Its[ in my conditioned opinion] all the perfect arrangement of the Lord .Yes it may be history all over again , but that was Krishnas arrangement also .I had a conditioned soul-so called -Guru in Iskcon and took some sort of semblance of initiation . And received and chanted some sort of semblance of the Holy Nama .But that made an impression on the heart and later on I got the real thing .
.The kind hand of the Lord is behind everything .
Radhe Radhe !!
I wonder victims of the Gurukul sexual abuse would have the same opinion. Ultimately everything is karma, and arranged perfectly by the Lord for our benefit. I only wonder if we don’t also have a Dharmic duty to prevent those kind of abuses from repeating so much as within our power to warn and so forth.
In my experience it takes decades of hard Guruseva and Namaseva to gradually change character and behavior traits .Preventing others [or ourselves ] from abusing others ,if that is the current stage,requires a lot of bajan, sadhan and Guruseva.With mercy, patience and determination we can be cured – no quick fixes generally .
“Preventing others [or ourselves ] from abusing others ,if that is the current stage,requires a lot of bajan, sadhan and Guruseva.”
Or a phone call to the police, a set of standards upheld by those authorized to oversee leaders, or even a lawsuit. In fact, the later things have worked very effectively, especially where there was a community awareness of potential harms and proper training in how to spot and deal with them. Far more effective than waiting for some celestial agency to intervene.
It seems, that you are overly concerned about bad things, which are not happening yet and may not or may happen in the future. Anything may happen, everything is possible – good and bad. That is freedom of existence of universe. For myself, I am very very suspicious person, really abnormally, so I set a rule for myself, to diminish my paranoias: “when there is a fact, then it is time to worry”. And normal cautions before facts, not too much. Otherwise my perception becomes very negative, and it ruins me.
You are worried that unqualified persons may begin to give diksha. But Srila Gurudeva said so many times, that kanishtha should not give diksha, and madhyama also very carefully, or better not. So, if someone will make such mistakes after this, what can be done?
It is impossible to make any set of administrative decisions/rules in society, by which everything would be made clear: this is uttama, this is madhyama, and this and that, so, particular one person has a right to initiate, another has no. That would be a parody and dead mechanics. Everything will manifest by individual activities of so many different persons. Rules and criteria are ALREADY given by guru, sadhu, shastra. Preventive instructions were also given so many times. So what is lacking now? We have freedom to act and necessary knowledge.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has said: “people understand preventive systems”. And then he said, that they lack positive aspect, which only pure devotees have.
One thing is clear: this society (IPBYS) was always liberal, anyone always could have shiksha inside or outside, vaishnavas from outside were always invited to speak. So in the future, if this mood will continue, what is the problem? Devotees naturally imbibed this mood, probably it will not disappear.
And you are right, if anything really goes very bad, there always is police and all such things.
Did someone mention Gurukulis who were victims of sexual abuse? My name is Madhava Das, I was raised in gurukula from birth and I was very blessed to behold our beloved Srila Gurudeva on the night of November 14th 1977 as he walked into the Krsna Balarama mandir with a couple of his Vaisnava friends to sing to Srila Prabhupada who had only just hours before left this world. I was so blessed with mercy to be given the opportunity to massage Srila Prabhupada’s feet as he left this world and although I was only 6 years old I was much more concerned with watching our beloved Srila Gurudeva receive Srila Prabhupada’s body into the samadhi pit instead of playing with my other friends. Although I was on a number of occasions sexually abused in gurukula I would not change a single experience I have had because I know deep in my heart that Lord Sri Krsna, Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva will always protect us.
My personal feeling is that out of respect for the most Saintly being that has walked the plane of this Earth, Srila Gurudeva, that we honour him by refraining from giving initiations for one year. Why is it that we all took shelter of Srila Gurudeva? Whilst Gurudeva was with us there were many high class Vaisnavas that we could have taken Harinama from but we did not turn to them we turned to the purest of the pure, the highest of the high because only they can really give initiation and diksa.
We may never ever really understand how fortunate we were to have so much love and affection from our beloved Gurudeva. We are all at a very raw stage of grieving for our Gurudeva who is everything to us in this world. At this time I encourage all of Gurudeva’s family to love and support each other in a very deep and meaningful way and then I have no doubt that Gurudeva himself will reveal deep in our hearts how we can serve him, whether it is part of an organisation or individually.
Peace and love
Madhava Das
Your point is correct . There is very much a duty to try and divert paths some people have taken. Usually the pedophiles try too minimize the act of a child being abuse by saying , oh its just this or that excuse .
“sahjia Gurus , muslim imams , Christian priests etc. Krishna is providing what we deserve”
I thought Lord Krishna provided a Hare krishna movement to preach to all the world the glorious message of Harinaam so that we don’t leave people in their condition.
Yes by hearing the loud chanting of the Holy Names gradual sukriti will accumulate and conscious will bud and blossom eventually lead to Pure Bhakti.So the fastest way we can raise our, and the general populations adikar is go out on Hari Nama Sankirtan.”Golokera prema-dhana hari-nama-sankirtana.”
In my humble opinion, everything depends on desire and knowledge. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not manifest only to preach harinama and even when He was present on earth there were also some Jagaïs and Madhaïs. We are always experts in giving our own opinion and speculations and in forgetting the subject in question, which is “The future of Srila Gurudeva’s mission by Brajanath das”. We are so fortunate to have witnessed the incredible amount of love and affection Srila Gurudeva was pouring on all those who were actually serving him as well as those who wished to. This is very comforting for the future development of the IPBYS’sanga which is discussed widely by Nemi Maharaja. As desperate as we may be, we know where to take shelter. Gaura premanande and Haribolo
Vaishnav ke ?
721018SB.VRN Lectures
You cannot become a pure, perfect devotee unless you are directed by another pure, unadulterated devotee. Evam parampara-praptam. So therefore Rupa Gosvami has mentioned in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, adau gurvasrayam. You have to find out, you have to take shelter, not find out. You have to take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master.When we are further advanced, we do not see only Krsna, but we see His devotees also. We can recognize,”Here is a pure devotee of Krsna.” But in the lower stage, a, the devotee’s concerned with the Deity worship, but he does not take much care of the devotees. But when one is advanced further, he can see Krsna and His devotees also. Isvara tad-adhina. Tad-adhina means devotees.Devotees are always under the service of Krsna. So anyone who is giving service to Krsna, we should take care of them also. We should offer our respect in… You’ll find in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu, it is stated somewhere, that if, if a devotee is coming, then another devotee who is engaged in worship of the Deity may stop Deity worship for the time being and should go immediately to receive the devotee. So Krsna also says, mad-bhakta-puja abhyadhika. Krsna is satisfied more when a devotee worships His devotee. Krsna says, “If one is worshiping Me and one is worshiping My devotee, then the person who is worshiping the devotee, he’s more important than the person who is worshiping Krsna.” So it is not the aim of human life, to becomea tiger. It is, the aim of human life is to become a devotee of Visnu, Vaisnava. That is perfection of life. So we are, this movement, we are giving the highest benediction to the human society.They are becoming Vaisnava. There is great necessity of Vaisnava at the present moment because everyone has become sudras. Kalau sudra sambhava. And because it is, everywhere the sudras are there, how there can be peace? They do not know. They have no brain how tomake the society peaceful and prosperous. They are sudras. They have no intelligence. There is necessity of creating brahmanas and Vaisnava. This movement is meant for that purpose. So becareful. Don’t be turned again to sudra and mlecchas. Go on making progress to become pure Vaisnava. Then your life is successful and you’ll give the best service to the human society.
Hmm …trying to figure out exactly how that is relating in regards to what is being put forth here and debated.
Im not even sure what the disscussion is now . As what you have quoted is ofcourse true coming from srila Prabhupada , but can you give its application to this curent crossroads and then maybe something can be related too in contexts .
Im must be so stupid , but not afaid to say so .
Real meaning of going to a sacred place–to find out some intelligent scholar in spiritual knowledge. They are living there. To make association with them, to take knowledge from them–that is the purpose of going to pilgrimage. Because in pilgrimage, holy places… Just like I, my residence is at Vrndavana. So at Vrndavana there are many great scholars and saintly persons living. So one should go to such holy places not simply to take bath in the water, but he must be intelligent enough to find out some spiritually advanced man living there and take instruction from him and (be) benefited by that.
Let there be no doubt that in Srila Gurudeva’s world wide sanga there are many that can save us, either themselves or they will gladly go with us to the Lotus Feet of Pure Vaishnavas!
Who can save us? Uttama adhikari? Then why is no one sitting in Vyasasana?
Vaishnav Bhakta
Why are you so hard? Have you no heart? Are you not a kind hearted merciful Vaishnava?
Srila Gurudeva has just left our sight, and you are stabbing our hearts with sharp knives.
If you are qualified you will see others are sitting on the Vyasasana. Srila Gurudeva would not leave us bereft. Have faith make your comments in a loving helpful mood, I beg you.
We have a warning to to accept just anybody. this is hard? You give these warnings. But I am stabbing? If we do not have an uttama adhikari in our sight, then a Madhyama will have to do. A madhyama adhikari is a great devotee, but he alone is not able to save. If this true or not? So why are you saying there are many able to save? Should we trust many? Should we trust without the very warning standards you have given?
If Vyasasana is empty then all the more reason to use careful discretion. Or is the advice to people not to evaluate shiksa and diksha by these high standards and warnings?
how am I unloving? Would it not be more unloving to accept lesser qualified persons who might lead many into a spiritual ditch?
In a few months I will continue this discussion with you, if I know who you really are.
Dear Isa das,
Your quotes from Srila Prabhupada are inspiring. Anyone with a little purity could understand how we should be feeling at this time of Srila Gurudeva’s departure, and be taking shelter of sastra and loving association.
Obviously some who post here cannot understand this. Sometimes people are incapable of feeling love, because they have not received or tasted love, themselves, therefore they do not know the language of love.
We cannot fault a cripple for not walking properly.
Yet I also feel, that any movement that preaches in a pure manner, will also have the challenge of dealing with opponents, who’s main purpose is to create dissention, or dissuade others from the path. Creating division, argument, and politics, have a way of being implanted from outside forces on purpose in many societies, so as to break them apart.
Jesus Christ was crucified, Prahlad Maharaja was harmed by his own father, and the Pandavas had to under so much suffering.
Envy exists in many forms, and sometimes it is intentional, and sometimes it is not.
A Crow and a Swan, never mix well together.
All glories to the loving dealings of the Vaisnavas.
And people don’t get destroyed by taking shelter of unqualified Gurus? Only it is outside plants and dissention which does this?
We should be careful and take shelter of shastra and also be cautious of who we accept as a senior Vaishnava. Why are those words treated so harshly?
Now you have made your point many times, thank you. All that want to listen will.
I only have taken exception to the statement that “many” can save us when the shastra you cited warns us to take shelter of a mahatma. Now just look how I am demonized for so saying.
you are right Isa about Vaishnava bhakta getting a heart at this point , but his argument is that he wants his points looked at and given a reasonable reply. Personally i dont think there will ever be an end to that process with him, but as much of a pain he maybe he makes points that he says he wanting honest answers too . But ….its a bit iffy .
Please understand no one is “Now just look how I am demonized for so saying.”
You have made your point, be humble and see how things develop.
Also, who are you?
Why do you want to know? Is it so you can single me out for ostracism?
A person with a foul smell, naturally ostracizes himself from others. Usually the foul smell, is from some internal disease, and lack of proper digestion, creating foul airs, that uncontrollably continue. Such persons are usually advised to go see a doctor.
They are then prescribed a good diet, and herbs to help them digest their food, thus giving promise of recovery, and acceptance back into society.
If the person accepts the advice of the Doctor he can become cured. If he does not trust the Doctor and does not take the medicine, he remains diseased.
Humility is the medicine, the Holy Name is the diet.
Loving words Pracetana dasi.
Dear Vaishnav Bhakta,
Sometimes you have to fight fire, with fire.
What goes around comes around.
Sorry I could not make friends with you, ,,I tried. You are seeing me, and others here as your enemy, but in reality we are trying to help you, because we care about you.,,,,believe it or not.
I wish you luck on your path of Bhakti, and I hope you find happiness and peace, I really do. But if you do not offer up your burden to the Lord, like Draupadi did, I don’t think you will find peace.
Wishing you well, goodbye.
“You are seeing me, and others here as your enemy”
No, you are seeing me as the enemy, you have even directly accused. At least be honest.
“Wishing you well, goodbye.”
Yes, I know that you are heartbroken.
“We cannot fault a cripple for not walking properly.
Yet I also feel, that any movement that preaches in a pure manner, will also have the challenge of dealing with opponents, who’s main purpose is to create dissention, or dissuade others from the path.”
Am I your opponent? Am I a cripple simply to warn that to trust in general and too broadly may have destructive consequences?
Wow,,,I am just amazed at the power you possess, to see fault in everything. Yes I am heartbroken !!! I am heart broken because I think you are a lonely person, who finds it difficult to associate with others, to trust others, and have faith in others.
What do you want me to say, to help you understand that unconditional love means turning the other cheek. I am turning the other cheek, do you want to hit me again ?
“I am turning the other cheek, do you want to hit me again ?”
I can only respond to the many swipes you’ve made against my character. I wasn’t even talking to you. I took exception that we can be saved by “many” in this or any society when the shastras provided were talking about taking shelter in a Mahatma.
Well, I can assure you, after this reception I will not be taking shelter of this sangha.
Yuga Avatar is my guess .
Because we are personal, other wise goodbye, prabhu.
We are personal, yet I am guarded. Consider the purpose of it and see if the loving relationships that should develop between us actually do.
Loving relationships develop with trust.
” It takes a long time, to grow an old friend”
Honesty is not our enemy. Honesty is our friend. If you are brave enough you will tell us who you really are. If you are not afraid to be honest you will tell us your real purpose here, instead of creating argument.
Otherwise, you, yourself are creator of your own destiny, by your personal choices and actions and words. You can choose to either distance yourself from everybody by your present attitude, or you can painfully open your eyes, look into your heart and see why are so hurt, so afraid, so stubborn in your negative approach.
It’s not that we don’t want to listen to your valid concerns, but My Lord, your attitude stinks.
I am so sorry to have to tell you that. Common son, you deserve to be told the truth. It would be unkind of us to let you carry on in your present attitude. Don’t let your mind get the better of you. We have been trying to deal with you patiently, and nicely and if you can’t see that, then I am afraid you may have some deep emotional issues.
“If you are not afraid”
Oh but I am afraid that’s been the point from day one. You think my attitude stinks? Lady take a look at your own writing.
“We have been trying to deal with you patiently, and nicely”
That’s awfully kind of you. Don’t worry, I won’t stick around much longer. As you say, crows and swans and people who stink shouldn’t stay together.
What was that about giving buckets of blood for one devotee or lost soul? Perhaps it should have read for one who always agrees and never diverges from the clique. If I have made a valid point why not just acknowledge it instead of trampling me personally because you didn’t think I had any right to say?
“WE have been trying to deal with YOU”
So glad you clarified that I’m not included in the “we.”
Though personally I am almost totally forgetful of the principal , I have heard that everything we think , say , do [post on the net] should be the most pleasing to Sri Radha and Krishna possible.So when I do {rarely] remember, the question comes “is this the most pleasing or can I do better?”Radhe
BG Ch 9 TEXT 13 P
The mahatma does not divert his attention to anything outside Krsna because he knows perfectly well that Krsna is the original Supreme Person, the cause of all causes. There is no doubt about it. Such a mahatma, or great soul, develops through association with other mahatmas, pure devotees. Pure devotees are not even attracted by Krsna’s other features, such as the four-armed Maha-Visnu. They are simply attracted by the two-armed form of Krsna.
The Personality of Godhead may not be present before one’s eyes, but if one is sincere in wanting such guidance the Lord will send a bona fide person who can guide one properly back home, back to Godhead.
SB 2.7.46 P Scheduled Incarnations with Specific Functions
One should not, however, think himself on the level of Brahma to be initiated directly by the Lord from inside because in the present age no one can be accepted to be as pure asBrahma.
SB 2.9.7 P Answers by Citing the Lord’ s Version
Srila Prabhupada:
“There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid.”
“The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord… The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata,and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on.”
SB 1.2.18 P Divinity and Divine Service
… one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Krsna and should follow in his footsteps
NoI 8
These are not my words, as I am just a dog and have nothing to offer. They are the words of my Diksa Guru Srila Prabhupada.
All should take to heart His instructions.
“… If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender”
Adi 1.35 The Spiritual Masters (Siksa and Diksa Guru)
Quotes From Srila Prabhupada
A gosvami must be free from all these vices before he can dare sit on the vyasasana. No one should be allowed to sit on the vyasasana who is not spotless in character.
SB 1.1.6 Questions by the Sages
”However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress.
Madhya Lila 22.71
“A pure devotee under the guidance of another experienced devotee can obtain all the results, even at present.”
SB 1.10.27 P Departure of Lord Krsna for Dvaraka From Srila Prabhupada
Dandavat Pranams to you Isa das Ji for clarifying that an ordinary person has no qualification to give diksha. I think we all know the irreparable harms caused both to the disciple and to the pretender guru.
May we never stray from Vaishnava siddhanta and Shri Guru Tattva.
Now that there will be a focus on opening more temples in the west, we desperately need a temple in New York City ! Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabupad said NYC was the most important city in the world. There are 4 ISKCON temples here now , one in Manhattan , one in Brooklyn, and two in Queens. I am willing to do whatever service needed to help this happen and would love to serve any Maharaj’s who would like to preach here and establish something in NYC !
I am amazed that Iskcon has 4 temples in NY …good going Iskcon . What is the congregation made up off though .
In Queens it’s mostly West Indians from Trinidad and Guyana , In Brooklyn mostly Indians , some West Indians ,African Americans and Whites ….. Manhattan mostly Indians and White Yuppy Yoga types ……..they are making new devotees and a lot of regular book distribution
Nice , lucky them. Can’t the groups work together in doing hari nama sankirtan . so much potential being missed .
Hare Krishna,
Until and if there will be next great great self-effulgent acharya in the future who would preach throughout the world and by this symptom will be recognizable more easily, as described in “Nectar of Instruction” 5th text purport by Srila Prabhupada, dilemma which new people and those, who already have diksha, but still not very advanced, will be the same: which personality to take shelter of for diksha or shiksha? But kanistha or less cannot recognize madhyama or uttama vaishnava by his own consideration. So will have to patiently wait for mercy of those madhyamas and uttamas, combined with the mercy of Lord Krishna, who will reveal themselves to such innocent people, and for this, will have to nicely associate with advanced vaishnavas. Until that moment, when one will feel that he has found shiksha or diksha guru, which will come for everyone individually or not (if unfortunate), there is introspective and quiet seva of Srila Gurudeva vani and all Guru parampara by way of strict sadhana and for active engagement there is much seva in Srila Gurudeva’s books publishing and distribution, Srila Gurudeva’s Navadvipa and Vraja parikramas, and cooperatively continuing IPBYS, by doing something with love, helping and respecting one and all accordingly. Dark times may come and pass, or may not, maybe everything will go on quite well, so let’s depend on Shri Krishnas mercy and all will become auspicious in due course of time.
Good reasoning here . Just get on with your path as normal . Take sadhu sanga with respect when they come and dont get all instutionalized thinking the society is my saviour, become your own saviour first.
Hare Krsna to all devotees and to everyone who wants to take up Krsna Consciouness.
At this point of time, it is too early to say anything about who the successor to Srila Gurudev will be. When Srila Prabhupad and Srila Gour Govinda Swami left our vision physically, there was some choas and disturbance and everyone was struggling to find the balance and foothold. No one had the slightest clue that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj will be one of the strongest Vaisnava as he preached the mission of Sriman Mahaprabhu very strongly. Having mentioned this, it does not mean the other disciples of Srila Prabhupad are lesser. All have different levels and an individual is attracted to a certain personality according to past sukrti.
This is also the case in a normal family setting, when the head of the family leaves and everyone feels confused and is unable to agree with one another’s points of views. Will the eldest lead? Many questions like this will race in the minds of everyone. In some cases, a person much younger and who has a slow start in life will eventually succeed.
So in this stage, we must quickly brace ourselves to the teachings of our Gurus and remain patient. Whatever the outcome of the management, best to respect the decisions and if one feels differently, we must be very patient and cry to our Gurus for proper directions and guidance. Srila Gurudev taught by example to be tolerant and avoid saying anything negative. If we do not agree or do not like sth, best not to comment. We must do it for our Gurus——–because they love us too much and have given so much energy to help us.
But where initiations are concerned, there is no fixed rule that one must and need to take shelter of the next appointed person. All because——- it is an individual decision where initiation is concerned. No one should be forced. For every person, their Guru is important and there should never be comparison. Just like our dear Srila Gurudev——–when he heard the news of Tamal Krsna Maharaj’s passing away, Srila Gurudev shed tears and spoke about him so fondly. Why???———Simply because Gurudev has love and affection for all and does not discriminate. Similarly, let us not come to a position to compare different sannyasis. Let it be Any sannyasi, if we recollect, our dear Gurudev always spoke highly of each of them and never at any point of time, say that one is better than the other.
When the right time comes for one to take shelter, it will automatically be arranged by Guru and Krsna. Trust and do not doubt what our acaryas have taught us. So please do not despair and continue in the same way as we did when Srila Gurudev was physically present. Gurudev is still very intimately present in the hearts of all his disciples. Firmly believe in this and the path will be much brighter for us.
We have been trained time and again that there is no loss in spiritual life. Whatever our paths may be from now on, there is no loss. As stated in the sastras——even if one does not continue in this path, there is no loss as we will continue from where we stopped in the next lifetime. All we need to do is just to serve our Gurus with sincerity and one-pointed devotion. All will fall into place.
Yes there will come a point, when the heart hankers for someone to help us. This will surely and definitely take place because our Gurudev is still with us and will help us meet the next person. This can happen in a day, in a month, in a year, even after ten years. Also our next siksa and diksa Gurus may even come from another math. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj is from Iskcon and Srila Gurudev is from Gaudiya Math. But in reality, there is no difference.I am not saying this to cause any division but this is the REAL TRUTH. KRSNA IS UNLIMITED And THEREFORE IF HE WANTS TO SEND A SADHU, HE CAN DO IT. Srila Gurudev will show us the DIVINE PERSON when the time comes. Please do not give up and remain humble and patient. THE DAY WHEN WE MEET A TRUE VAISNAVA WILL SURELY COME.
For now, all we have to do is cry to Gurudev and chant our japa knowing that Gurudev will not FORSAKE US and that he LOVES us.
In conclusion, I would like to sincerely express my respects to all of Gurudev’s disciples and kindly excuse any shortcomings in this mail.
Hare Krsna!
Dear Devotees,
please accept my dandavats pranams. I pray to Srila Gurudeva to shower profuse heartly blessings upon us.
All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga and all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.
In reply to all the comments, please do not be worried for Srila Gurudeva is not an ordinary person, neither were our great predecessor spiritual guardians. They knew very well that this is the Age of Kali and a lot of quarreling, misunderstandings are bound to be present.
We have learned from Srila Gurudeva and Sastra that bhakti is given by those who possess bhakti in their heart. This is our motto and guideline: wherever there is bhakti, that place we want to go and pay respect to by hearing powerful Harikatha + rendering menial services. It does not matter whether bhakti is available in ISKCON, in Gaudiya Math, in our own Society, or in any branch that comes from the Caitanya Tree.
Srila Gurudeva has trained his followers very well and he never considered that one person is initiated by himself and another person is initiated by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, or Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, or any other bona fide spiritual master. If the spiritual master was not bona fide, had fallen down, or displayed envy and malice, Srila Gurudeva would very happily accept his followers and give them his full affection & attention. This is his great compassion and example.
We desire to adopt the same mood and respect all Vaisnavas, all spiritual masters and all living entities. We want to cooperate and help all who come forward to make spiritual progress by hearing very powerful Harikatha, learning proper Vaisnava siddhanta and offer them excellent sadhu sanga.
Srila Gurudeva was not in favor of appointing an acharya, so we should carefully consider the deep spiritual conclusion in this. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was never appointed Acharya, but he is our spiritual guardian and ideal example. Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Gosvami Maharaja was never appointed Acharya but all Gaudiya Vaisnavas accept him as their spiritual guardian and ideal example. Similarly so is with Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Pramoda Puri Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja and our own Gurudeva. None of these exalted personalities were appointed Acharya but they automatically manifested their spiritual status as bona fide spiritual guardians. These spiritual giants are eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna and descended in this world to bestow pure bhakti upon all. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Krsna and Srimati Radhika are not small timers. Rest assured that They care for us more than we can imagine. Certainly They will continue to send Their intimate associates in this world to rescue the fallen souls. All we have to do is to be sincere, honest, respectful, humble, tolerant, kind and affectionately disposed. Our concern should be to honor Bhakti Devi and encourage each other to hear very powerful Harikatha from authentic speakers. In this environment the living entity will benefit tremendously and his/her bhakti will flourish. To manage and organize this concept makes an organization truly spiritual.
What is the harm if one receives initiation from an honest, sincere Vaisnava and is guided, directed to be in the association of advanced, pure Vaisnavas to hear their powerful Harikatha. Is there any harm for the initiating spiritual master and is there any harm for the person who has received initiation? We can learn so much from the life of Srila Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami. He received initiation from Yadunanda Acharya, then came under the guidance of Sri Swarup Damodara, who is non different from Srimati Lalita Sakhi. After the disappearance of Sri Swarupa Damodara, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Raya Ramanda and Sri Gadadhara Pandit, Srila Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami felt so much pain out of separation, that he went to Vrndavan to commit suicide by jumping from Govardhan; but what happened? Arriving in Vrndavan he met with Srila Sanatan Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami and accepted them as his all and all. This is our ideal, to always be in the association of superior Vaisnavas who can help nourish our bhakti creeper. And guess what, yes you know what I am going to write, all of these great spiritual personalities were never appointed Acharya. They are eternal associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Divine Couple.
This is what we have learned from our beloved Gurudeva and this is what we desire to follow in order to please him and all our predecessor spiritual guardians.
aspiring for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas
Brajanath das
One should understand Krishna in truth, and this one can do only by serving a pure devotee.
Srimad Bhagavatam, 7.9.24
Dear Brajanath prabhu,
Thankyou for your clear, encouraging words of wisdom, during these confusing times.
I am happy to see you posting here, as we need the guidance of advanced devotees, especially during this transition.
The quality of your post is very much heart felt, and reminds me of the comfort I felt when I sat in front of Gurudeva hearing his Hari Katha in Badger.
I believe yourself and Madhava Maharaja, are a store house of spiritual jems, and it would be kind of both of you to please speak more and more. Your experience and wisdom are needed now.
All glories to the Vaisnavas.
Jaya Srila Gurudeva. Dear Brajanath das prabhu. Everything you wrote is so beautiful. I heard you speak twice. Once you said… “what can conditioned souls do to help themselves ?” So true ! we always need sadhu sanga. Another time you said that when someone was bothering us we should dring a glass of water. Was it the right understanding ? I am not so sure. Anyway Gurudeva will always be our teacher, as was Srila Gour Govinda Swami, Srila Prabhupada and others, and we will always have to learn from a superior source. So it is one’s interest to always feel meek and humble and admit, despite the huge amount of knowledge he or she may possesses that there is always something wonderful to learn on the path of bhakti. Gaura premanande and Hari bolo
Haribol all concerned souls
Please don’t overlook the most important message.
Quote:
First and foremost Srila Gurudeva has emphasized again and again that all should respect one another, be very humble and always have loving, affectionate relationships. In this way all will be happy and nourished. Moreover, Srila Gurudeva is always with us, through his instructions, his devotees, and within our heart. We should overlook each other’s shortcomings and serve combined to spread the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Unquote.
Let’s not make a problem by alluding to one that doesn’t yet, and may never exist. Let’s hope that we are all so much more wise than at the time of SP leaving ISKCON and can make wiser decisions.
Srila Gurudeva wants us to love each other so every other action should include love.
Are we concerned about parampara? In Srila Gurudeva’s biography of His Srila Gurudeva, Sri Srimad Bhakti_Prajnana Kesava Goswami Maharaja it is shown in section f) The charm and superiority of the bhagavata-parampara, that our parampara is essentially a siksha parampara.
So let us not be concerned. Srila Gurudeva knows what he’s doing. Everything is perfect.
Jaya Srila Gurudeva.
ys
tkd
Relax, God’s in control.
Thank you TarunKrsna das!!!
Perfectly said…..Krsna is in control after all, and Gurudeva, although not physically seen by us, he is still guiding, loving and watching over us. Let’s try to have faith and see the good in each other.Gurudeva was the most loving, that is what has touched most of us so deeply. Let us in turn be kind and loving with each other, try to uplift rather than expect the worst.
Ys
Saci
For me personally, I am a new initiate just getting initiated this summer at Badger….. I love Gurudev , but I did not get to develop a relationship with him and now he has left this world. I need further guidance in my spiritual life and I plan to take shelter of BV Madhava Maharaj and ask him for 2nd initiation. If Gurudev has authorized some Sannyasis to initiate we have to accept that , Gurudev was a Pure Devotee and if he saw qualities in these Sanyassis that they are qualified to initiate then so be it ! An Acharya will naturally emerge , it can’t be rushed ! Gurudev and Krishna have a plan to flood this world with Pure Bhakti ,let’s all cooperate and make it happen !!!!!
Hari bol, both to Rasa , and Vaishnav Bhakta
With Vaishnav’s statement that the door to the societies continuation of the Guru Parampara is closed forever, is of “concern to me”.
When I served in Iskcon, even after the physical departure of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and experienced the grief in Iskcon due to the falling down of it’s self appointed Acharaya’s. I kept on serving in the mission. What else was I supposed to do ? The temple was my home, my service, my life, my connection to Srila Prabhupada. So many problems were there, but I just kept doing my service.
Until I happened to hear about Srila Sridhara Maharaja, and came across his book: ” The Search for Sri Krsna Reality the Beautiful”. It was a breath of transcendental fresh air. It lifted my spirit and nourished my soul, and at once I recognized the difference in quality that existed between hearing from Srila Sridhara Maharaja and hearing the explanations of SrimadBhagavatam by the temple authorities, or visiting self appointed Acharayas of Iskcon.
When I expressed my new found joy at this inspirational association, I was told by a leading Iskcon authority at the time, that Srila Sridhara Maharaja was an envious poisenous snake., and that anyone hearing from him was not welcomed in Iskcon, and that we were not to hear from Prabhupada’s Godbrothers.
I was shocked. I had to hide my books and remain quiet, because otherwise I would have been thrown out of the temple. So I remained like this for years, secretly reading but keeping quiet.
Then after some years, I was introduced to Srila Gurudeva. Again I felt a wave of pure bhakti emanating from his classes and books, and the bhajans and kirtans reminded me of Srila Prabhupada’s presence and purity.
What was I to do? Again I told people this time of Srila Gurudeva’s wonderful pure character and again I was told he was a Sahajiya, and to stay far away from his sangha.
My heart would not allow this. No matter what others said, I knew, that I had tasted for myself the pure sweetness of Srila Gurudeva’s classes and I knew then that , it was “envy”, that had contaminated Iskcon. The leaders and Governing Board of Commissioners , did not want others to be inspired by Srila Gurudeva, because they were afraid of losing their members, and their own high positions if Srila Gurudeva was allowed to speak in the Iskcon Centers.
This also happened with Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, and most recently with Srila BB Bodhayana Maharaja.
So, yes I agree that such a danger exists in places of envy, where lack of love and trust and cooperation, and open communication are discouraged and threatened with reprimand.
I agree that no” unqualified” board can decide on the purity within one’s heart. But when an Acharaya leaves, and he has not appointed a successor, then the society has to go on in a managerial way, with a governing board of directors, unless the majority of devotees cry out for a particular person to kindly take this post, and such a heart felt cry was taken to be the indication of the supersoul within, to have said person carry on the parampara.
Who can understand Krsna’s will,,,,only a person who has been gifted with it, by the Lord Himself can understand.
All I know is, when Srila Prabhupada entered Samadhi, his followers did not continue to take instruction from elevated personalities such as Srila Gurudeva, and Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, and thus left to the workings of their imperfect mind and senses, they created offences to these great personalities and thus caused suffering to many devotees who wanted to take siksha from Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Gurudeva Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.
A management team has to be there, in any organization to see to all the book distribution, the festivals, temple worship, management of the parikrama’s etc. But when it comes to managing a “pure devotee”,,,,it does not apply here.
A pure devotee is a free agent.
Srila Prabhupada warned his Iskcon disciples: ” do not make this like the Christan church.”
So Jesus is the only Guru, of Christianity, and now Srila Prabhupada is the only Guru of Sanatan Dharma, and pure devotional service? Will we do the same thing to Srila Gurudeva? We cannot afford such sectarian thinking.
Management has to be there for practical things, but the last word should be from an established head who is pure and trusted.
I honestly thought Srila Madava Maharaja would be next in line. But really it is in krsna’s hand. A person has to feel the calling from God very strongly.
As Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja commented,,” Radhika has to call him”
In conclusion I wish everyone well, and hope that Gurudeva’s desires for us become reality.
Much respect to all
a fallen wretch Pracetana dasi
“So I remained like this for years, secretly reading but keeping quiet.”
Sometimes wise people do in other way.
Just wanted to share with you all that I was put on moderation under Vaishnav Bhakta. Worrisome.
The posts that were witheld had to do with discussion of continuation of the Guru parampara which necessarily requires direct transmission, authorization and empowerment from the Guru to the guru. No one can later sit himself in Vyasasana by vote of committee or even personal effulgence. It’s true a self-effulgent great Light may appear, but not within this specific Guru lineage.
“I honestly thought Srila Madava Maharaja would be next in line.”
Yes I thought that too.
I really have a bad feeling about every sannyasi being authorized to give diksha. It seems to be contrary to what Gurudev was saying about Guru Tattva. And when told that contradictory statements and contradiction to Shastras exist about it, and we’re given such condescending directives…
well… it’s not like we live in their temples and they can throw us out or anything. But I would like that our sangha have some forum to remain open and free to discuss concerns amongst each other regarding these developments. Else we will have to create our own version of the ex-ISKCON forums to do it. What a pity.
We can discuss openly at Facebook if you have one with lots of friends on it .
Please friend me as Vaishnav Bhakta on Facebook, with Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as my picture. I won’t know how to reach you.
Haribol!
Send me a PM there and I can connect you to another FB page with a lot of friends or the communications can remain anon via PMs.
I found you . Are you Yuga avatar ?
He’s not me. I will explain, send me a PM
I just opened this account. I asked him a question about GBC, he’s from ISKCON and he friended me. I have no other friend with this account.
I will friend you , but I already know Yuga avatar is a shill . Not quite sure of that language , but I see it so much on forums that I get that it means a person who post to deliberately disrupt for another agency .
I can’t explain my personal details here. You will have to send me a PM so I can discuss better otherwise you’re only making assumptions.
Dandavat Pranams to the assemble devotees ,All Glories to Srila Gurudeva,
I am just remembering a few things my Diksa Guru Paramaradhyadeva nitya lila pravista om visnupada astotara sata Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja said in reference to the qualification of Guru .
One should not become Guru unless one is personally invited by Srimati Radharani.
Real Guru is never a conditioned soul
Real Guru comes down from the Nitya Dhama
Those in dasya , sakya or vatsalya may come down , but mostly manjaris of Radhika come down to act as Guru.Some come because Krishna orders them , but some , especially the manjaris [their hearts are so soft] , seeing our terrible suffering condition in this world , their hearts overflowing with compassion they come down of their own accord just to deliver us .
One should not become Guru unless they know what Krishna wants.
If you don’t have Krishna 100% how will you give Krishna ?
Guru must be able to deliver His disciples to the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna
….a tatva-darshi sees the absolute truth Sri Krishna , not just once and never sees again, but always sees , at every moment the all beautiful , three fold bending form of Sharmasundara everywhere .
He also stressed that based upon Sri Bhagavan Krishnas statement
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah that a tattva -darshis is always available in this world .
I am sure we all have realized to different degrees that Srila Gurudeva is such a Guru ,personally appointed by Srimati Radharani Herself .
And conversely we will all know our selves whether we can see Krishna or not, and whether we have come down from the nikunja seva or not. So its a matter of being honest .If we are not an eternal associate of the Lord , engaged life after life in delivering the conditioned souls as our eternal seva as a kaya-vyuha bodily expansion of SrimatiRadharani then we can humbly admit that .Find another living Guru like that and bring people to them .
We all saw many conditioned souls acting as Guru while Srila Gurudeva was also on the planet .Surely if those persons had directed their disciplines [and come them selves } to Gurudevas Lotus feet ,all would have been better off .The same situation was there when our previous acharyas were on the planet also.
Its the market place of the Holy Nama .The more currency [sukriti ,shradha ] the higher type of Guru and Nama we will get .Those with more realization will assist the self-realised souls ,and those with less realization will prematurely become lower type Gurus and compete with the self realized Guru for followers.
History repeats it self perpetually it seems .
Radhe Radhe !!
I have read quite a few of the posts and at first I am taking on facevalue , but reading more carefully I can see that we must be carefull as to how we label others here as you dont know who they are and they may be using this outlet to have a voice of concern that they cant express through normal channels within the management group .
please accept my heartfelt condolances .
Dandvat Pranams BV Vaikhans Maharaj and all devotees,
Having gone through all the posts on this article, I am anything but distressed. Fortunately I got Gurudev Srila Narayan Maharaj’s unlimited mercy by taking diksha under the shelter of his lotus feet in last Gaura Poornima. I know nothing about anything but still gathered strength to comment.
What if we all simply continue our devotional activities and the neophyte devotees like me and any new comers (who did not had opportunity to get diksha from Gurudeva) continue to take Siksha from Sannyasi disciples of Srila Gurudeva alongside taking siksha from Gurudev’s recorded lectures and conversations etc? Are we in a position to judge the sannyasi disciples of Gurudeva? Can we judge Madhava Maharaj and His unflinching servie to Srila Gurudeva? Can we judge BV Vaikhans Maharaj and His devotion in Krishna’s service for prolonged years? Can we similarly judge all elevated disciples of Srila Gurudeva who have served Srila Gurudeva with so much devotion and sincerity?
I have had attended lectures by Syamarani didi, BV Tridandi Swami, BV Vaikhans Maharaj and also did some parikramas in association of Sripad Maharaj (Rasananda Prabhu earlier), and I can say that their vani really had impact on my bhakti because certainly they are on a platform where it will take us many years to reach. We cannot judge if they are fully realised, uttam adhikari etc. First we have to see that what are we and if we have enough humility to enquire things from them.
So instead of juding anyone, why do we not peacefully continue in our bhakti path and continue taking siksha?
Yes but at the same time, the governing body etc… can they not just continue preaching like they were doing so far in Gurudev’s presence? so in other words all I mean to say is.. let things continue as they were continuing prior to Gurudev’s departure.
and if any newcomers are inspired by our sannyasi teachers, then as per Gurudev’s instructions they are to give initiations so where is the harm and what are we losing?
Also, as an individual Vaishnava soul, everyone is free to seek true knowledge wherever they find it. It is not restricted within boundaries so there should not be any fear in anyone’s heart conerning the matters that devotees go to some other math etc. Knowledge is unlimited and Lord’s pure devotees never vanish from this planet.
Lets surrender to the mercy of Gurudeva and have faith in His disciples.
Dasanudasi
Radhaakanti dasi
Nicely said they are all advanced devotees , their lecturs are very inspiring to me also !
Dandavats to all.
Nothing has really changed because of Gurudevas disappearance.Above the localized dark clouds the sun is always shining .For some the “dark period” will be momentary , for others it maybe as long as the rest of their life .
If we commit too many offenses to our Guru ,when He leaves we may not be able to get a siksa Guru of the same caliber . Some will get a shiksa Guru immediately ,or after some days , weeks , months ,years ,decades or even lives .Guru and Krishna will direct us to a shiksha Guru according to what we deserve .That cant be legislated , its up to Krishnas sweet will.
As for new persons those with sufficient sukriti and good samscars will get shelter of a Mahabhaghavat Utamadikari Vaisnava .Those with less sukriti will get the association of Madyam vaisnavas , those with still less a kanista vaisnava .That every one must get an uttam vaisnava Guru cant be inscribed in the legislation of an institution either .Krishna will weigh their sukriti and give a Guru accordingly .
I may be wrong , I am just a conditioned soul.That is just my meager understanding hearing from the lotus lips of the sudabhaktas .
Radhe Radhe !!
Hari bol, Mathuranatha das prabhu,
Your “meager understanding”, is your natural humility, and it seems to me your words are certainly a message from the lips of the sudabhaktas. I agree.
“..one who prepares himself on the inside, just as a flower that opens it’s petals to draw in the honeybee, will also by the sweetness of their heart, attract a spiritual guide”
Chanakya pandit says that out of a group of a thousand cows, the calf knows which is it’s mother.
This same principle of Divine Attraction, belongs not to this world, but is experienced when one qualifies to receive it.
I have firm faith, this sangha is in the Lord’s hand.
Good luck to all and to you Pracetana . Everyone has different experiences and each to their own paths in life .
Good nite and godbless .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxFEFVH4E5A&feature=related
Is this the conversation that you base your conclusion on that Gurudev wanted his Sanyasis to initiate ?
Can we vote for an area guru ? We want Uma didi and Syamarani Didi in our area please please.
And theres even more , Gurudev once told Caru didi she can initiate as well.
Haribol, Rasa
Thankyou for posting the above link of the video of Srila Gurudeva speaking on initiations. Srila Gurudeva gives clear instructions, but we as individuals will understand this same instruction in different ways, according to the level of our intelligence, our sukriti, our mood, and individual personality.
Srila Gurudeva clearly states to his senior disciples and sannyasis, that one day they will have to give initiations. He states that one should guide others to an Uttama Maha Bhagavat Devotee, and in case there isn’t one available, then Madhyama, of which there are so many.
So I don’t think we should be in clouds of confusion regarding Srila Gurudeva’s instruction. We just have to be “honest” with ourselves. As Gurudeva has said: ” put your hand on your heart, and judge for yourself “…so it seems if Gurudeva’s disciples are “honest” with themselves by contemplating deeply their own qualifications, or lack of them, they can make mature decisions whether or not to accept the order of Guru to initiate. Srila Gurudeva himself had stated he did not want to take any disciples at first. That is how serious this position of Guru really is.
Once you become a Guru, you inherit a family of disciples and you become responsible for them, just like a husband or father becomes responsible for his wife and children. You have to guide them, when they make mistakes. You have to be tolerant when they misunderstand you. You have to be detached when they become angry at you, and abuse you and leave you. You have to forgive them when they cheat you. You may even fall down with one of them, who entices you by their external devotion.
Who can qualify for such a job offer ?! Srila Prabhupada was cook, dish and bottle washer for his disciples, in the begining. Really becoming Guru is like raising a family. It is the same responsibility. ” One should not become a father, one should not become a mother, one should not become a guru, unless he can liberate those under his care”… Yet the Guru gives the order to initiate.
So to those who received the order……will they fit the job offer ?! I hope everyone who received such an order will be very honest with themselves, because the pain of being let down, or deceived, by a fall down, is equal to a woman’s pain when she finds out her husband has deceived her and fallen down with another woman. The guru , disciple relationship is a sacred union, similar to the sacred union of man and woman in marriage. Any breach to the sacred union causes emotional devastation.
Anyone going through a divorce, or going through the experience of one’s guru falling down knows what I am talking about.
So again,,,,Srila Gurudeva has given the order to initiate, and those concerned must ask themselves honestly that ” can I dedicate myself to such a holy union, till
…..DEATH DO US PART………. It’s a lifetime responsibility. Do we qualify ???
Dear Pracetana devi, you have made very good observation and points about the honesty that should be taking place. This is only workable with true honesty as we all know what Gurudev said again and again about the actual qualifications of a guru . He even repeats in the Video , why bother with the lower class guru .
Wonderfull point about the heartbreak one feels when let down by ones guru , such as the wife feels when she finds out her husband has cheated on her. I never realized that was the pain you had all felt by beinng let down in the past and I am really sorry about the lack of empathy I have had in the past for all off those who had been decieved.
We can take a hrad hearted attitude that a persons choice of Guru will be according to their ( the students ) adhicar. I also have taken that mood upon myself in the past to purely stop that intense mood that wishes I could have helped the new people not be cheated.
Unfortunately even Madhyam level is very high indeed as offenceless chanting is present at that stage.
It seems srila Gurudev has left the flood gate wide open as a trick.
I could never understand if he was saying something as a joke or a sarcasm or he really meant what he said .
This whole affair has now been left up to personal responsibily and buyer beware.
Warning : try telling devottees around you that the person they are worshipping as God is not .
Kaos here. This is not good , but expected . There really was not going to be any other way it could have played out unfortunately.
But lets look on the bright side. we had many wonderfull years of real sadhu sanga after a great drought , with a most wonderfull personality in His most Divine grace Srila Narayan Maharaj . Huge blessings .
Thankyou Lord Sri Krishna
THANK YOU
BV Vaikhanas for taking the time to try and make this transitional state easier for all of us, as you realize, while I am being the voice, there are many even more afraid to speak who have these same concerns and questions.
Sadly, the fear of retaliation remains because the changes which are now happening are being made without providing the sangha any corroborative supports, and there are perhaps many thousands of us who were expecting, hoping and praying for a continuation of guru parampara instead of a bureaucratic institution to lead the Pure Bhakti society. And by simply opening the door to voice the concerns and ask for the scriptural and Guru authorization supports is being considered as “offense” “disloyalty,” and “angery barking” by some. how long before the questioning door closes forever?
To ask questions and even challenge positions until proper authoritative proofs are provided is the very basis of a preaching Order. To feel so underqualified or threatened that you dare not ask, reminds one of haunting situation which enveloped ISKCON.
“Avoid getting into wars and and personal arguments”
It is no war, the decisions regarding this society have been made already, and now, in fairness, they must be supported in Shastra and Guru Order to the rest of us.
“Can we vote for an area guru ? We want Uma didi and Syamarani Didi in our area please please.”
I sincerely hope and pray (As I can do nothing else) that this doesn’t imitate the direction of the ISKCON ZONAL system in limiting access to Shiksa Guru’s of the society based on location.
It also has not been made clear what sort of Society this is to be, if members of this sangha are free to obtain Shiksa or lead others to diksha outside of it. I am not able to see continuation of parampara at all and this saddens me profoundly.
I beg, I beg on bended knees with folded hands that we do not repeat the ISKCON disasters. And since I am considered already an offender for voicing these concerns, I beg first forgiveness from my Srila Gurudev, from His society, from the Vaishnava sangha, perhaps none of you will know from what it was that prompted me to speak.
“So instead of judging anyone,”
To question the direction the seniors are taking when it is so abrupt, so soon and somewhat unexpected; to ask for clarifications and scriptural proofs and Guru support for their decisions which impact on all of us is not “judgment.” Concerns and questions are not a “sin.” I beg the sangha, with tears in my eyes, can we please….not go there?
“Both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva have made statements on the subject that appear to contradict other statements they have made, or conflict with our understanding of apparently clear sastric statements.”
Worrisome.
Dear Vaisnav Bhakta,
I hear your concern, and one who is begging on bended knees with folded hands, deserves to have his questions answered.
Although it is brave to ask these questions of concern and worry, one also has to be brave in accepting the feedback from others. This Back to Bhakti site gives everyone an opportunity to express themselves freely,, even a lowly woman like myself,,,,we all have that right. Srila Gurudeva has stated that we should hear from one another. We should put ourselves in the other person’s position. The Native American Indians have a saying: ” walk a mile in my moccasin”,,,before you judge or critcize.
Respecting each other, means to listen to what others have to say. It goes both ways. You are judging Brajanatha prabhu as well as all other senior devotees. You may not see that, perhaps it is a blind spot in your own personal character. Brajanatha has served Srila Gurudeva with his life and soul, and his example is a valuable guiding light to others.
I trust that all the sastric references necessary to answer all your doubts and fears will be supplied by the qualified devotees of this Divine Sangha.
As for ourselves, something is lacking if we feel forced to “demand” respect for requests, because man may propose,,,,but it is God that disposes.
You can’t force a flower to bloom before it’s natural time,,,,,only manipulating scientists try to do that.
My recommendation to you, is to wait patiently for the answers you seek, thereby commanding the respect you desire.
trinad api …………
Asking them questions and espressing heartfelt concerns is not a judgement. And if you and they choose to interpret it that way, it just speaks to the very fears I had which made this anonymous identity. Perhaps you can’t see that either. And I might add, you have made several pointed criticisms of me directly and as to my character. I did not so do to anyone not even Brajanath Prabhu, in any words that I have spoken. My concerns are not about him but about the direction of the society and the loss of guru parampara.
Hari bol, Dear Vaishav Bhakta
Free will, and different angles of vision are a creation of God therefore we can’t fault each other for our own individuality and preferences.
All blind men see the elephant in a different way, according to where they place their hands.
I choose to see Gurudeva’s sangha guided by love and trust, thankyou. If you have felt offended by my words, it was not to intentionally hurt you. Sometimes a boil, needs lancing. I hope you can recover. In this world no one sees their own faults, and it is rare that Krsna arranges for someone to point it out.
” mine is the fault”…..so hard to put into practice. Chanakya Pandit states, “..look in the forest…all the straight trees are cut down, and the crooked ones are left standing”.
All glories to the straightforward dealings of the Vaisnavas. Pranams to your act in this drama.
your servant
Pracetana dasi
“My recommendation to you, is to wait patiently for the answers you seek.”
It doesn’t matter anymore really. Without continuation of parampara this is just a management organization of BV Srila Gurudev’s teachings. We are all free to scatter. And we will look for shiksha and lead others for diksha where and from whom our hearts lead us, as there is no continuation of this Guru lineage. I all bless the senior disciples but don’t care to involve in this management organization. I do not at all understand how they will continue any preaching mission with sannyasi diksha gurus, will be their headache and heartache to work out.
Thankfully by grace of Sri Radha-Krishna and the mercy of Gurudev I am still in the family of Vaishnavas and am free to seek guidance of a qualified Guru of any Matha. Again it saddens me as I had hoped for the continuation of parampara for Gurudev’s society. An empty chair and a managing committee is not the continuation of a Guru Bhakti society. Perhaps it will do nicely for some.
Dandavat pranams to you all.
Dear Vaishnav Bhakta, all glories to your heartfelt concern for Srila Gurudeva’s Sangha and it’s continuation of a Guru Bhakti Society.
Heart felt prayers are heard by the Supreme Lord. If all of us combine our prayers, the seat of Vyasadeva will not remain an empty chair.
With devotees such as Madhava Maharaja present amongst us, who has served Gurudeva faithfully for years together, and who is conversant with all sastra, and has been in Gurudeva’s presence for so long knowing the heart of Gurudeva….who will not recognize that ?
All glories to Srila Madhava Maharaja and his dedication to the mission of Srila Gurudeva. May Gurudeva’s light shine through his words, so that he may continue to guide us, to keep our faith strong and our hearts pure.
All glories to all the devotees of the Lord, who only wish to serve and honor each other. The bond of this love and trust, will forever fill the seat of Vyasadeva and thus guarantee guidance for all.
trinad api
at the feet of the Vaisnavas
Pracetana dasi
Beloved Didi Ji,
“With devotees such as Madhava Maharaja present amongst us, who has served Gurudeva faithfully for years together, and who is conversant with all sastra, and has been in Gurudeva’s presence for so long knowing the heart of Gurudeva….who will not recognize that ?”
The transfer and empowerment to a direct successor of Srila gurudev was not given. This society’s Guru parampara door is now forever closed. Any of the senior disciples who elevates to position of Acharya eventually on his own merits will now have to be recognized by majority vote of his god-brothers in a management committee set-up (not a disciplic lineage) or will do so in formation of his own society, and not as a directly empowered successor to Gurudev.
And THIS was why I was dismayed before. There is no Parampara or legacy which will continue in a disciplic chain. Our Guru Bhakti society is now over and is evolving in the only way it can, as a management committee set-up to preserve the memorial of Gurudeva’s teachings for posterity.
We are now free to find Shiksa within or outside the society. Perhaps one day the beloved sons and daughters of BV Narayana Maharaja will elevate to a glorious height as teachers and Guru’s of highest caliber. No one wishes this more than I. But there is no Guru parampara of Gurudev’s society. It is a closed lineage. Perhaps this really was His intent for whatever reasons known only to Him.
I’m not sure now what His mission can be, except the preservation and dissemination of His teachings. We can’t really preach and lead anyone to His empty chair.
dear Vaisnava bhakta….I hear you and I know I have two very distressed young disciples of Gurudev( due to 1 hid departure and now this) , in my house now when they needed the time to not even think about such things as are being given .
This is sudden by obviously not sudden for all the men in that video I posted . Its like another bad dream and it has dissappointed many . As we know in the history of Iskcon , many disciples of Srila Prabhupada had to leave the sanga. I know everyone has been told they left because they were not good disciples and I am sure that propaganda may continue , now onto a new group of disciples , namely those of Srila Narayan Maharaj who do not like what they may be witnessing, as you have already experienced the beginnings of this process .
I dont want this to happen , but it seems the process has started and I just want you all to know that it is not your fault , you did nothing , except love your gurudev so much that you wanted the best outcome for future students.
Kartika was very distressing this year because this outcome was being promoted BEFORE Gurudevs departure and we all wanted to not think about him NOT being present in BODY . We wanted only to project a positive energy of his living on so we could feed that mood and not that other one of death .
I hear your pleading Vaisnava bhakta . It is very real and sincere and you also are seeing the darkness. I could not believe my ears when I heard a great saint vaisnavi lamentations on hearing her beloved Gurus departure and these words slipped out in her visions of the future .
If you are gurudevs full disksa , just buckle down and retreat to an internal place and hold onto what you know to be true and good and take the company of those beautifull souls who want NOTHING but to give the bhakti as they have learnt from the Parampara .
Godbless and be a braveheart
Add on to Vaisnava Bhakta. I dont quite follow your line of thought in saying the chair is empty for Guru continuance . I see that it has filled up with many . Looking at your concern of a non continuence…due to an offical posting of an Archarya. Im not seeing that , why an official post must be there when the actual higher Archaryas become noticed in time as self effulgent. That you cannot legislate on.
Dear Vaisnava Bhakta,
Personally, I don’t find your questions and doubts (and those of others) so unusual. I have been hearing these same questions asked for the last few years by many senior devotees as well.
My diksa guru Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written that when the acharya disappears, there will be chaos. Srila Gurudeva also predicted that there would be difficulty when he left as well.
There will always be differences of opinion on the subject of who shall be a guru and who shall not. Both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva have made statements on the subject that appear to contradict other statements they have made, or conflict with our understanding of apparently clear sastric statements.
Honest, humble and patient discussion of this subject is what is required at present for the devotees to understand and develop faith in Srila Gurudeva’s instructions. It is important to have access to the instructions that he has been giving for the last many years on the subject and to study them carefully.
However, you will see that when you hear or read Srila Gurudeva’s statements, it will not always be so clear to you what he means.
Let me give you a summation of Srila Gurudeva’s instruction on initiation as I understand them. 1. Srila Gurudeva said all his sannyasis can (or should)initiate. 2. One should be at least on the platform of madhyama in order to initiate 3. If one is not on this platform or higher, one will fall down.
4. One who initiates can only give spiritually what they themselves have attained (e.g. ruci, asakti, siddha deha) 5. A disciple with a guru on a lesser level should seek association and instruction from one on a higher level, preferably an uttama maha-bhagavat. A lesser level guru should also seek instruction. 6. If there is a maha-bhagavat to take instruction from, why accept initiation from a lesser qualified devotee in the first place? Yet there are guidelines given for that by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, so the situation does exist.
Essentially, the instructions are there and apply to persons according to time, circumstance and our current eligibility for bhakti. To have real peace of mind, you have to think deeply about this subject and discuss it with others so that you can reconcile it and develop faith and understanding.
Everything is contained in the very first instructions that Brajanath Prabhu has written. Everything flows from that. If we are truly open-hearted and affectionate to one another, then all things will be adjusted nicely. I hope I don’t sound too simplistic here.
Please don’t fear retaliation. Avoid getting into wars and and personal arguments (although I admit that is not always easy). Just associate with like minded devotees who have affection for you and each other and go on preaching in a simple and loving way. Over time you will get increased realizations and faith and be able to help yourself and others.
Haribol, BV Vaikanas Maharaja
Thankyou, for the mature vision expressed here. It is comforting. I hope Vaisnav Bhakta finds satisfaction in your post to him as well.
All glories to the devotees of the Lord
In the recent speach Srila Narayana Maharaja said:
“If you want money, then be in ISKCON, and if you want bhakti, then strictly come to me. I will give you bhakti.”
“You should know that almost ninety percent of the sannyasis of ISKCON have entered grhastha life, and many even went against ISKCON and took a lot of money. On the other hand, it is very rare for my sannyasis to fall down – only a few have fallen. He is practically the only one. (Pointing to Prema-prayojana dasa) He is the black sheep of my sannyasis.”
http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses-mainmenu-61/57-2010/1120-darsan-for-iskcon-gurukula-alumni.html
So, my question for you all, senioк devotees: Who are able to give bhakti like Srila narayana Maharaj? If you can’t, whom will you advise outside your sanga?
Very sastric and very clear, Vaikhanas Maharaja, and not “too simplistic”. I remember hearing it said once, that Krsna consciousness is simple for the simple and complex for the complex.
“Just associate with like minded devotees who have affection for you and each other and go on preaching in a simple and loving way. Over time you will get increased realizations and faith and be able to help yourself and others”.
Simple for the simple.
(It may be necessary to explain that simple here does not mean as in simpleton. No. It means being uncluttered and relatively free of desires, concerns, suspicions, jealousies, fears, resentments and other mental phobias and complexities).
For an uncomplex mind, the truth and the process are clear.
Your logical and sober presentation is appreciated. I want to be around devotees who have clear, sober vision. And I want to bring new people to hear from such devotees.
Initiation?
That will take care of itself when the time is right. Why should one be in a hurry to be initiated? When there is a maha-bhagavat from whom to receive diksa, that’s another thing;”purchase it without delay”. But when there’s no maha-bhagavat visible, sincere candidates should be encouraged to chant, associate with and befriend sober and positive devotees, and learn to adopt the spiritual process into their lives. In time their guru will appear. Our Srila Prabhupada waited eleven years before he took initiation from Srila Sarasvati Thakura.
There may be a few casualties … hey, it’s Kaliyuga.
But I do not believe or accept that the holocaust of ISKCON will be relived. There are too many in our ranks now who are wise, sagacious, discerning and insightful.
We’ve had our goal clearly defined for us by Srila Gurudeva, and we want to go for it. Let us stay (or become) simple and deeply imbibe the words of our gurus. Those of this vision will gravitate toward each other, and something wonderful will manifest, sooner or later.
I love the third verse of the song of my guru Srila Prabhupada, “Prayer to Krsna’s Lotus Feet”.
‘As the vast mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu conquers all directions, a flood of transcendental ecstasy will certainly cover the land’.
“There may be a few casualties … hey, it’s Kaliyuga.
But I do not believe or accept that the holocaust of ISKCON will be relived. There are too many in our ranks now who are wise, sagacious, discerning and insightful.”
That is the exact opposite of Srila Gurudeva’s position. “Hey, it’s only a few casualties.” What happened to dedicating yourself to donating “buckets of blood” to bring one soul to Krishna consciousness?
And you contradicted yourself. If it’s Kaliyuga and we are in a fallen condition in a downward cycle, then yes, we are ALL vulnerable to the exact same catastrophes that befell ISKCON. No one is immune, that is wisdom. And due care and the same exact safeguards which were enacted “after the fact” should in Gurudeva’s society be enacted “before” bad things ever happen as a kind of preventative to protect our downward human inclinations to fall down. Most especially since we do not have anymore an Uttama Adhikari Mahabhagavat Acharya Gurudeva.
Anything less…is pure folly.
Dandavat Pranams ,Just addressing the general growing concern on this subject .It appears that the centers and temples around the world will be independent managerially and financially . It appears that the Gurus/sannyassis preachers will be pretty much independent [their deference to a governing body being voluntary] .So really we just have a loose association of like minded individuals with their relation ship with Srila Gurudeva as the only real connection . Pretty much that was also how it was when Srila Gurudeva was present .You couldnt really apply the term “organisation” to our group , its more of a religious sub sect .No harm .
Sometimes well organised , regimented corporations or countries have a huge impact on the world, and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes grassroots , cultural /religious movements with no membership , management , manifesto ,plan or strategy take over countries ,continents or the whole world .And sometimes they dont .
The structure or management model adopted by Gurudevas sanga probably doest really alter the effect we will have collectively upon the world .That in fact will be the accumulative effect of the sum total of our own individual thoughts , words and deeds .And thats the only thing we do have any real control over ,and the only thing that will really matter at the time of death .
So unless we really are in a position to practically influence the course of our societies future I personally feel its more productive to let Guru and Krishna manifest the future reality as they see fit .Its an interesting subject to occasionally contemplate but our real concern is the inward journey .Am I remembering Krishna with love ?Worrying about that feels better to me than worrying excessively about the direction of the world sanga .
Lets all calm down and go introspective before the whole Guru , managment thing turns us into neurotic wrecks
Radhe Radhe !!
But this is a “preaching” society and mission. It isn’t an inward individual yoga thing. We have a history and a lineage. Now to whom are we to take the people we preach to? Sannyasis of our choosing for initiation? Within or outside our society? What is the future of Gurudeva’s mission outside of Guru parampara and/or ritvik initiations?
“You couldnt really apply the term “organisation” to our group.”
Is it a society or not with any hope of continuation?
“…really we just have a loose association of like minded individuals with their relation ship with Srila Gurudeva as the only real connection.”
Lordy!~
That is what concerns me also , we used to guide new people to the Maha-Bhagavat Devotee ……….. Now what do we do ? And what happens to the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti? There has always been a succesion of Acharya /Presidents in GVS, Does it just dissolve into The International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society? I would like to know who Gurudev said specifically could initiate new devotees.
As I understand, madhyama adhikaris can initiate. On one video Srila Narayana Maharaja said that ‘madhyamas like you or Nemi Maharaj can initiate’.
dear Vaisnava Bhakta, I have no idea who you are and what is your relationship with our Sanga? It seems that you are now much aware of the dynamics of the process of initiation or what is a spiritual organization?
Please introduce your self and your experience in spiritual life, what association you have and who is your spiritual master; this will make it easier for me to address your concerns and alleviate your fears
I fear retaliation, hence I express my concerns anonymously. Is that honest enough for you?
“It seems that you are now much aware of the dynamics of the process of initiation or what is a spiritual organization?”
I am an adult and a Vaishnava after all.
Apart from personalizing anything or detracting from my character personally, why not simply address the clear points and concerns I have raised?
Because he can’t change his mind’s habbit to figure out the aim in his scope sight.
“I have no idea who you are and what is your relationship with our Sanga?”
Since I am a member of “your” sanga I must confess that to have someone as senior as you talking like this to someone like me regarding legitimate concerns only magnifies them.
Dear Vaishav Bhakta,
I say this as a mother. “Please stop barking”. Your mood, that is coming across loud and clear over the internet waves, is one of harshness. It is not palatable or easily digested.
Your valid concerns, can be given in a gentler fashion don’t you think,,, which is after all the Vaisnava way? To tell you truthfully, my 18 year old son, has the same attitude. I love him dearly, but he does not see his own arrogance.
You may not realize this, but you are causing uncomfortable feelings to manifest, perhaps on the verge of offence. You are entitled to your opinion, God has given you a free will, but if you force your opinion on others, then this lack of respect and humility goes against the good you may be trying to do.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. Our mood here in this sangha is based on love and affection. If you claim to be a member of Gurudeva’s sangha, you are disqualifying yourself by your antagonistic mood.
My son usually starts throwing things around when I talk to him like this and storms out of the door. I wait for him to come back and make him his favorite sweet. He says: ” thanks mom, I’m sorry I got upset”. And we talk in a mood of love and affection.
I’ve been a mother for the past 36 years dealing with all my three children. At some point in time they all thought they were right about something and voiced themselves so strongly almost to the point of anger. Rage blinds the heart. Attachment to the result makes us angry, so angry that we begin to hate the one’s we love.
But a mother will never stop loving her son, because she knows deep down inside he has a good heart.
I know your concerns are valid, but please don’t get angry.
mother pracetana
Dear Pracetana dasi,
I am 40ish and I am not angry. I am fearful, there is a huge difference. And when talked down to or intimidated by seniors for asking sincere questions regarding the continuation of the disciplic lineage and parampara and to now understand that this has been precluded and we are to have only an institution is a lot to swallow already.
If, as you say, merely voicing concerns and posing the necessary shastric conditions and Gurudev orders per my request from the seniors regarding these developments is to be construed as anger, arrogance and offense, then I don’t want to be a part of this sangha anymore because it will have taken a fearful, closed, threatened and cultic direction. I have only voiced valid shastric concerns many of those familiar with ISKCON have experienced and those concerns are not to be ignored if any of the seniors wish to promote calm within this sangha.
It is not my fears or concerns which have any disruptive power, but the talking down to, intimidating on personal level, or threatening with ostracism which is going to have a huge negative effect. So I would urge the senior devotees restraint as these concerns are aired and surface. Simply because they are unspoken doesn’t mean they’re going away. Driving the questions underground is precisely the retaliation I was talking about.
“You may not realize this, but you are causing uncomfortable feelings to manifest, perhaps on the verge of offence.”
“Rage blinds the heart. Attachment to the result makes us angry, so angry that we begin to hate the one’s we love.”
“If you claim to be a member of Gurudeva’s sangha, you are disqualifying yourself by your antagonistic mood.”
The valid concerns regarding Guru Parampara and disciplic lineage will come back to haunt us all if these positions are not supported and made abundantly clear to the sangha, as they should be. As others have stated, this set-up is frighteningly reminiscent of ISKCON and THAT is the basis of fear and concern, there is no rage at all, only deep, deep sorrow and feelings of loss. I mourn for what is happening now in a way you cannot possibly understand.
Haribol!~
Dear Brajanath Prabhu,
Dandavats. Thank you for your very clear guidelines. I too am hopeful that Srila Gurudevas society of devotees is successful in keeping HIS mood and desires in the fore front, not following the path of iskcon. I am eager to hear more.
Vaisnavanudas
Saci
They are following the path of Iskcon. Can anyone show me how this current path is different. iskcon even allowed more time after the departure of srila prabhupada , before they jumped in boots and all and i can tell you now that i see the same reactions starting .
I prefer to be hopeful that our sanga will be successful where others have fallen short. Maybe that is simplistic, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt…..I think this dialogue can be healthy if we are loving and kind with one another, keeping Gurudeva’s mood and desire before our own fears and limited conceptions.
Dandavats to all,
Saci
Dear Brajanatha prabhu,
Thankyou for sharing with us, the future directions and vision of the sangha. I pray and hope that the purity, love, cooperation, and inspiration continues. I hope that the well of Love of Godhead constructed by Srila Gurudeva, and from which we are all drinking and feeling nourished remains ever pure, and capable of satisfying the spiritual thirst of all travelers on the path of transcendence.
As the shepherd knows his flock, and the flock know their shepherd, I also hope that devotees will find their true connection in the place they belong where they will feel spiritually nourished. As an international society, I hope we can all benefit by the variety of our association and help one another keep a united spiritual front.
I hope we can learn from the mistakes many experienced in Iskcon, and I hope we can learn to avoid mistakes in the future, which may cause problems. But as you have mentioned, that this mood of respect, and love, and hearing from one another is a safe guard that Srila Gurudeva has put in place to protect us from causing offence to one another.
May Gurudeva’s will be done, and his wishes carried out by his loving servants. I’m sure it is the custom in the construction of Samadhi’s that Vastu principles are considered and followed, thus ensuring auspiciousness.
All glories to the service of Sri Guru and Gauranga, I know it is not an easy task to please everyone, so let us try to please Sri Guru, and in this way we will all become pleased.
your servant pracetana dasi
Thank you so much Pracetana didi,
Your comments are very valuable and show a level of depth, respect and humility that I aspire for. I trust that by embracing this kind of humble mood, Guru and Krishna will guide the sincere sadhaka to always have high quality sadhu-sanga, as opposed to the dry empirical philosophical process, which may only bring argument based on logic and flawed thinking – overlooking the subtle spiritual energy at work.
We’re blessed to be allowed on this path and getting into arguments with each other may cause us to lose those blessings.
As one unknown author said it:
“Love knows no reasons, love knows no lies.
Love defies all reasons, love has no eyes.
But love is not blind, love sees but doesn’t mind.”
Your servant,
Raghava Pandit das
There is no designated successor Acharya. That immediately puts serious doubt as to the qualifications of Srimad Bhaktivedanta Madhava Maharaja at the same time elevates every sannyasi who so desires to give diksha as a kind of independent “Guru” for the newly initiated. This does sound an awful lot like the GBC ritvik set up.
Why didn’t this Math do what Bhaktivedanta Sridar Maharaja did by appointing a Successor Acharya for Saraswati Chaitanya Math? Why instead after all the divisions and conflict and irregularities of ISKCON experience choose to go there? Who is the successor to BV Narayana Maharaja? A majority vote? Independent initiating ritvik Gurus? No Guru now but a team of board members in a Guru-Bhakti society?
And how will this set-up not go the way of ISKCON?
Dear Vaishnav Bhakta,
Haribol, all glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.
Although your post has some serious concerns, the difference between Iskcon and Gurudeva’s Sangha is that they are following….”the order of their Guru”. Upon “his order”, they are managing according to Gurudeva’s wishes.
So this is the difference. Gurudeva told certain of his disciples,and sannyasis to initiate, seeing they met the qualification, and advising them to develop in their own area. This is a “direct order” from “master to disciple”. If followed,,, this exemplifies faith in the words of the spiritual master.
Unlike Iskcon, who misunderstood Prabhupada’s instructions and became “Acharya”.
“Acharya”,,,,is a specific post that is never appointed, but is revealed. It is a “Divine Intervention”. In the history of our Guru Parampara, we see many saints, and guru’s initiating and bringing people closer to God. But those who “STAND OUT”,,,,by the purity and effulgence equal to the shining sun become known as “Acharya”, in due course of time.
So I don’t see the problem of disciple’s initiating on the specific “order given to them personally by their guru”.
As far as an “Acharya” is concerned,,,,it will take time to “recognize”. Srila Prabhupada amongst all his Godbrothers shone like the sun, by taking on his head the order of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati. A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada earned his title of “Acharya”, through his life’s example.
So please, Vaishnav Bhakta………..be patient, as Rome was not built in a day. Instead chant and pray to have the eyes with which to recognize the next Acharya, and until then work in cooperation with the system Srila Gurudeva himself put into place. If we follow Gurudeva’s instruction, then that is perfect understanding for now.
The sun always shines clearly, but our clouds of misconception dim it’s illumination. So let the sun of Gurudeva’s instruction shine, and everything else will be revealed in time.
have patience,,,,
pracetana dasi
Yesterday’s article states: “The question now in the minds of many is who will give these devotees initiation. The most obvious answer is that those who they develop faith in may give that initiation to them. Some traveling preachers have stated that they have felt the pull of this obligation to help new devotees in their Bhakti. For this reason Srila Gurudeva approved the sannyasis to give initiation. However, he also stated clearly that the guru is in a risky position and must be an elevated madhyama devotee to be able to help the disciple and to be safe from deviation and fall down. A guru takes on the karma of the disciple.”
So they all become independent initiating Gurus of this society and answerable to a board of majority vote which can veto them or remove them from authorization. How does this set up NOT repeat the ISKCON situation? Are they ritviks who initiate on behalf of Gurudev or are they independent Guru’s initiating on their own behalf? Are they initiating into the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society which is managed by a board of directors like the GBC set up?
“So I don’t see the problem of disciple’s initiating on the specific “order given to them personally by their guru”.
I do because it’s not at all clear and certainly risky and potentially very divisive. And that’s why I honestly voiced this concern.
If we are to believe that BV Narayana Maharaja was the intended successor of BV Prabhupada, then why are we waiting for the appointment of a new Acharya? What will be the mode of recognition? Majority vote? Can you not see the divisions in it? Why wasn’t an Acharya designated to avoid all these potential problems? Wasn’t that the issue with BV prabhupada? That BV Narayana Maharaja was designated but not recognized and the majority vote given to the unworthy and unqualified? Voted-in Guru’s will always fail. So I don’t understand this set-up at all.
An initiating guru who is answerable to a Board of Directors is disastrous. Who can have guru Bhakti for him and not be running to curry favor with the all powerful Board instead. Do you see what concerns me?
It sounds just like ISKCON. My apologies for offending anybody, I speak out of personal grave concerns.
Dandavat pranam Vaisnava Bhakta Prabhu,
Thank you for expressing your quite legitimate and well reasoned concerns regarding who is qualified to be guru and whether we should have an appointed acharya or not.
When I wrote my article, I simply summarized Srila Gurudeva’s instructions and the conclusions of the recent meetings. I did not have space or time to explain in depth our understanding of how and why Srila Gurudeva instructed us to proceed in these matters. I believe Brajanath Prabhu has done the same thing.
Your concerns have stimulated some interesting and well reasoned responses. Believe me when I tell you that this same kind of dialog has been going on for the last two years among the sannyasis as a result of Srila Gurudeva’s ongoing instruction to us about taking up the role of guru. Devotees have strong opinions and different realizations and perspectives about Srila Gurudeva’s instructions, the same as you and the other prabhus and didis that have been commenting have.
I have sent out a request to gather all the relevant conversations and instructions Srila Gurudeva has given in the last few years about the ‘guru issue’. We want to publish this information and give full access to the devotee community so that all can collectively move forward with understanding of Srila Gurudeva’s desires.
Even then, I have no doubt that there will be differences of opinion, some slight, some large. Srila Gurudeva has always said that advancement in Bhakti gives the ability to reconcile and adjust apparently contradictory statements and instructions of the scripture and apply them appropriately according to time, place, circumstance and the eligibility of the audience.
Let us pray that Srila Gurudeva will give us the faith and humility to move forward in a way consistent with his desires and the principles and practices of our Rupanuga guru-varga.
Thank you for your loving concern for Srila Gurudeva’s legacy and his devotees.
Haribol, BV Vaikanas Maharaja, and Vaishnav Bhakta prabhu. Please accept my humble obeisancies.
The concern expressed about Gurudeva’s sangha developing along the same lines of Iskcon, is a fear. A real devotee is fearless, because he knows the “Supreme Lord” is in control of the situation.
I have faith that empowered individuals, will continue Gurudeva’s mission, as Gurudeva himself did as he cooperated with his own Godbrothers.
Historically, and through practical example we have seen that bonafide, qualified preachers, who are empowered stand the test of time. Their pure preaching, inspires others, comforts others, and their vision and direction establishes temples, and facilitates book distribution.
Whether it is a single person, on their own establishing a mission, like Srila Prabhupada did in the west, or whether it is a combination of persons, such as the Gaudiya Vedanta Samhiti, or other combined effort of management, it really doesn’t matter.
What matters is that in the heart of anyone who decides to take the responsibility, of initiation means that they must have prepared themselves by connecting deeply in their heart of hearts, with their guru and Radha Krsna, seeking their blessings, and strength to carry out such a heavy task. I only hope that those who desire to initiate, realize they need to be an expert swimmer, while trying to save the drowning man. It is very serious business.
Even Srila Gurudeva, said he did not want to accept any disciples at first, but because people were coming to him and asking for initiation, being inspired by him, he agreed, seeing their need for help.
I am positive that those who wish to start initiations, know the grave danger of not being fully mature and connected internally with Divine Grace before attempting to deal with the karma, and contaminations of the conditioned souls.
Those who are not qualified will fall ! Why is that surprising ? Time will reveal everything. There are pure devotees on this planet, and in time their blazing light will shine, and those with eyes shall see, and those who have ears will hear and recognize .
Srila Gurudeva said, if one has become initiated by a bonafide spiritual master, but that master leaves this world before the disciple has matured in his God Realization, then he should seek out a Siksha Guru to further understand how to attain perfection. So some of Gurudeva’s disciples may feel this way, and may feel they need to hear from another pure devotee. They will be attracted to hear from someone who inspires them. That is natural. It will not take away from their love for Srila Gurudeva, or from what he gave them.
Some of Gurudeva’s disciples may feel, that Gurudeva has already given them everything they need for their perfection, and they will be happy just reading his books, listening to his tapes, and watching his video’s, as well as associating with his sangha for festivals, and parikrama. They may feel their cup is full of Srila Gurudeva’s mercy and they don’t need anyone else to compliment their understanding. They will feel very strongly connected to Srila Gurudeva, and perhaps continue to respectfully hear from other advanced Vaisnava’s.
New people coming to Srila Gurudeva’s movement, will be the challenge now. Whoever thinks they are qualified to fill Srila Gurudeva’s shoes, will have to be equal in quality to Srila Gurudeva.
History shows us that a self effulgent Acharya who continues the parampara, manifests in time. It could be someone in Gurudeva’s Pure Bhakti yoga society, or it could be someone emerging from another bonafide spiritual establishment. Who can say? Iskcon will repeat itself here if such an effulgent self manifest acharya does happen to emerge from another math, and those in Gurudeva’s sangha become sectarian and don’t embrace him, and allow others to hear from him. Then this would be making the same mistake as Iskcon.
From my personal experience, being in Iskcon, and then having the fortune to hear from pure devotees such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, and Srila Gurudeva,,,,,I can only say with deep conviction that a pure devotee is recognized when he speaks, and by his personal example, and how he can move the love in a person’s heart to inspire them to chant Hare Krsna, and be connected by heart to our ultimate goal of life, the service of Sri Sri Radha Govinda.
These are transcendental arrangements, that are already predestined. We will just have to wait and see. Time reveals who will stay, who will go, and who will carry on.
I have faith in the Lord, that He will arrange everything and in the mean time, I will keep my eyes and ears and heart open to recognize the truth when it comes before me. Because only the Truth can set you free.
It is said that the good shepherd knows his own flock, and the flock knows it’s good shepherd.
All glories to the Vaisnava’s. All glories to Srila Gurudeva’s misson.
Dandavat pranams BV Vaikhanas,
Thank you for your honest reply. You write, “I have sent out a request to gather all the relevant conversations and instructions Srila Gurudeva has given in the last few years about the ‘guru issue’.”
We all recognize these are preliminary formulations, but as it concerns the complicated matter of Guru Tattva and the future direction of the society it cannot be ignored and time is of the essence. It is no longer only a matter of Gurudeva’s instructions but how they have been understood and interpreted and are to be implemented by the seniors on our behalf. And this must be reconciled by every devotee with the very teachings of our Gurudeva and the Shastras.
Without a designated Acharya successor, and our most senior sannyasi being delegated to an elected Chairman position who can be voted out by majority, the Guru Bhakti which was the “glue” of our society is going to be fundamentally changed.
We are left with the alternatives which ISKCON was criticized for. And these elements have yet to be clarified, and hopefully soon will be.
1. Are the individual sannyasis of their own determination going to become initiating Guru’s for the society and hence individually owed their own measure of guru Bhakti by disciples, or are they empowered by a managing Board as ritvik representatives of BV Narayana Maharaja? Are they initiating in His name? Or their own? And if for their own, what loyalty are their disciples owing to this society? You see, it is already a breach of Guru parampara.
The inclarity of this huge issue raises the spectre of the scriptural illegitimacy of ritvik gurus and clear violation of Guru tattva, so I hope we don’t go there. It isn’t a small matter by any means, nor is it any question of personal preference. As Sridar Maharaja has said, “A parampara devoid of parampara cant even be considered a shell.”
So are we to understand that Gurudev put in place a ritvik system or not? And if the individual sannyasis become initiating Gurus, do they initiate into International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society or to themselves? you see, it becomes a question of lineage, continuation of parampara or complete fragmentation. There is no “managing Board” which can hold together a parampara by rule of majority. It simply becomes the end of a parampara and the beginnings of a GBC-like institution of management committee’s and Guru bhakti yields to vote of majority. This will be ackward for a society named “Pure Bhakti” to devolve into an institutional bureaucracy.
Where is the scriptural evidence and proofs regarding Guru parampara and Guru Tattva to establish the legitimacy of the new system?
Where and to whom do the devotee’s now place their loyalty in the following of orders and direction? Is there in place the designation of recognized and authorized Shiksa Guru’s within the society or is that left to the discretion of the individual and are we now free to go outside this society to obtain shiksa?
Is our obedience now bound to a majority vote of an institution rather than to a living continuation of legitimate Guru parampara?
You see, while these questions are difficult and somewhat painful, they need to be asked now, and clarified sooner rather than later, because this society will be torn apart by criticisms and invalidations if these issues are not resolved amicably from within the society first.
This is the concern. Because waiting for an Acharya to appeal to someone’s heart from any sangha, as has been suggested here is an open invitation to leave Gurudeva’s society before it even begins…in search of an Acharya.
In 2 years time, 5 years, 10 years will we all become followers of a ritvik system and board of managing directors not based on seniority, as has been discussed but by term-limits and majority vote and popularity? How will the new Acharya be recognized and empowered if Gurudeva has not clearly continued His parampara? In this proposed system, can there ever be a new Acharya authorized by International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society? Or did Gurudeva close off the parampara and instead establish a democratic governing Board (new GBC)?
See, this system is the death of this parampara and of the practice of Guru Bhakti within this society, respecting that initiated disciples of Gurudev will always be protected by Him and owe their devotion and appreciation to Him exclusively. But as the diksha disciples grow older and sparse within the society, how will it now evolve? Are we to understand initiations by sannyasis are anything but a ritvik system or an unmanaged Guru system without parampara authorization and empowerment?
An Acharya who just shows up eventually and is recognized and installed as a legitimate successor, by vote and by proxy, is already an aberration filled with divisiveness and wishful thinking. For such an Acharya, especially from an outside sangat will be a direct threat to the established system. So we have to be honest that by the designs of this system, there will be no future designated Acharya, unless he is voted in by majority and becomes, the aberration against Guru Tattva of an “elected” guru.
So we are all waiting to hear the clarifications from senior Vaishnavas and scriptural authorizations and Guru instructions on these matters as they go to the very heart of BV Narayana Maharaja’s claims regarding the ISKCON society and it’s aberrations.
After all, everybody should be holding our own society up to this standard of Guru Tattva we have been taught and given. Contradictions can be reconciled with intelligence and wisdom, but never by rule of majority of elected officials.
Welcome back to the future? Is it going to be the same ISKCON?
Why not to find elevated vaishnava outside the mission and take diksa?!
jamuna Jivana Das ki jaya!
tasmād guruḿ prapadyeta
jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam
śābde pare ca niṣṇātaḿ
brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam
(Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.3.21)
“Therefore (because we cannot attain real happiness in this material world) a person who seriously desires the ultimate spiritual perfection must seek a bona fide Guru and take shelter of him. The Qualifications of Sri Guru is that:1- He has fully realised the Vedic scriptures (sabda-brahma).2- He has fully realised the Supreme Absolute Truth (para-brahma).3-And for whom the mundane world holds no charm whatsoever.”
Note: (Srila Gurudeva wants that his samadhi has his two most dear friends along side him. Srila Vamana Maharaja and Srila Trivikram Maharaja, so why would this not happen?)
BV Madhava Maharaj seems to me the most qualified to give initiations
Hari Bol Jamuna Jivana das,
Do u know who is our GURUDEV ???? Obviously no because ur statement does not say so.
1. Elevated Vaisnavas,uttam,madhyam,kanisht vaisnavas are always welcome in SRILA GURUDEV’s mission.
2. There is no derth of Elevated vaisnavas in SRILA GURUDEV’s army.
3. GURUDEV’s desire is not confined within isckon or Gaudiya Math,GURUDEV’s Manobhisht is to fulfill Mahaprabhu’s Manobhisht.
Hare Krsna prabhu ji.
Hari bol, Jamuna Jivana das,
Please read what I wrote above to Vaishnav Bhakta das, perhaps it can answer your question. An” Acharya” is self manifest over time. For now let’s be patient, and pray we can recognize elevated Vaishnava’s wherever they may manifest, in whatever sangha, in whatever country, on whatever planet. A pure devotee is not trapped by the confines of any sangha., as they travel freely like our dear example Narada Muni, who is forever singing the Lord’s praises while travelling the three worlds playing on his veena……”Radhika Raman….Radhika Raman”
have patience,,it is a great virtue !
“For now let’s be patient, and pray we can recognize elevated Vaishnava’s wherever they may manifest, in whatever sangha, in whatever country, on whatever planet.”
but what is the future of THIS society is that is our criteria? And if what you said is so, then you are agreeing to the statement made by Jamuna Jivana das:
“Welcome back to the future? Is it going to be the same ISKCON?
Why not to find elevated vaishnava outside the mission and take diksa?!”
If we are all free to go outside what is left of International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society? Everyone will eventually scatter in search of a genuine Acharya and not even one from within own society.
Dear Vaishnav Bhakta,
Please calm down, you are misunderstanding my words. Take a few deep breaths, and a glass of warm water with a teaspoon of “Brahmi” in it. It will help calm your nerves.
Everything will be okay ! As Bob Marley sings: “Every little thing is gonna be alright!” Even Bob, had faith in God. Trust in the higher power and you won’t be so disturbed about things. We are in good hands and to feel that you need “Trust”.
I hope you find it.
All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!!
All glories to you Brajanath prabhu, Pujyapad Madhav Maharaj’s, our senior sanyassins and your entire team’s service to Srila Gurudev.
Koti Koti Dandavats pranams for your sweet, clear and understandable explanations about the future arrangements of Srila Gurudev mission.
Gaura Premanande!!
Hari Bolo
your godsister and aspiring servant
Sitãdevi dasi
Dandvat Brajnath Prabhu,
Thanks for giving us direction and taking initiative. I hope all of us by the grace and blessings of our beloved Gurudev are able to carry this (dhara) flow of pure Bhakti for the benefit of mankind. If we sincerely desire, Srila Gurudev will surely provide us the guidance and shakti to follow his instructions.
We will always follow in your footsteps. All glories to yours, Pujyapad Madhav Maharaj’s and your entire team’s service to Srila Gurudev.
JAI GURUDEV !
Ajay & Nona Pilot
Dandavats, Brajanath prabhu !
Thank you for the clarifications and updates !
So we can email you and get an answer to our questions
at the email address that you’ve provided above ?
All glories to your service !
Hari bol !
Your godbrother,
Jayanta das
Dandavats to all vaisnavas.
Srila Gurudeva is with us, he is here with us, he can hear us every moment, so really there is no need to speculate about the future of IPBYS.
Thinking about the future is in the mode of passion, rajo guna. Thinking about presence is in sattva guna, mode of goodness. Thinking of our sadhan/bhajan…
There are qualified vaisnavas who are at least on madhyama level. What is the problem?
There is always pure devotee on the planet, and sampradaya is going to be continued…from time immemorial.
Building temples in every town, gurukulas, farms,
..not all Srila gurudeva disciple aspire for it.
Many are more advanced. This ideas are for people to get basic sukrti, very basic sukrti.
Srila gurudeva did not come to preach arop siddha bhakti and varnasrama. It was already done by Bhaktivedanta Svami before.
Srila Gurudeva focused on sanga siddha and svarup siddha bhakti.
..and for less advanced he told “preach like in ISCKON”
but not for everyone.
please forgive me my offences
dandavats everyone , if some one has Bhakti adikar they will sit under a tree or big rock or cave and chant a lack or 2or3 , sing all the astikams , bajans , weep and forget to eat and sleep.
If however after a few hours of bajan we find our selves out making money to maintain and improve our family’s palatial living arrandments then we can understand we only have karm adikar [like me].
So if we feel we must do something then distributing books , preaching ,opening temples ,model vedic farming communities etc etc will help us accumulate enough bhakti unmuki sukriti that will lead us to doing Pure Bhakti .
That is my meger understanding from what I have heard from the lotus lips of the self-realised souls.
RadheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeShaaaaaam!!