Dear Devotees,
Please accept our dandavats pranams, all glories to Sri Guru ad Sri Gauranga and all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji
We pray to Srila Gurudeva to shower his profuse heartly blessings upon all of us. We are now preparing to follow his order and invite you to kindly attend our first Advisory Board meeting on the 20th and 21st of March 2011 in Sri Keshavji Gaudiya Math, Sri Navadvip Dhama.
Here is where Srila Gurudeva gave his order:
‘On the 8th of February 2010, Srila Gurudeva was in Mauritius; he spoke with Sripad BV Madhava Maharaja and with Brajanath dasa. Acyutananda Brahmachari was also present. Gurudeva gave a clear order. He instructed that twice in a year, at the time of Kartik and at the time of Sri Gaura Janma Mahotsava, there will be meetings involving all the sannyasis and all the devotees that are responsible for management of our Maths, Preaching Centers, and Seva Teams.
Here is the exact wording of the resolution:
‘Dear Members! My deliberation is as follows:
In my absence any important, final decision is to be made in a combined meeting, comprising of all of our Sannyasis, Math Commanders, and eminent householder devotee preachers.
This meeting is to convene bi-annually during Sri Gaura Janma Mahotsava and in the month of Kartik at the time of Sri Vraja Mandala Parikrama.’
Srila Gurudeva’s order manifested spontaneous and was not in response to anyone’s question, idea, or suggestion, nor was it in the context of any general discussion. He emphasized that it was the desire of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, that preaching should go on in an organized manner. Just as they have advised to form a Governing Body to make major decisions related to spreading and practicing the message of pure bhakti, we want to follow the exact same concept.’
Repeatedly over the course of the fifteen years of Gurudeva’s world travels, he has expressed the need for devotees to co-operate. He wants us to serve together and continue his mission which is non-different from the mission of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
During 2007 in San Francisco, in 2008 at the time of Kartik, the year after in Navadwip and again in Kartik, a series of dynamic and inclusive meetings were held. Although this did not lead to the creation of anything structural, there has been a permanent shift in the way how devotees communicate across the sanga. There is more openness, less fear, more freedom, and more sweetness.
There is no “they” in this sanga. In other words there is no other powerful center directing the sanga other than Srila Gurudeva. This is probably, in part, a response to previous experiences with spiritual societies. It is also a function of the deep, personal and intimate experience that so many of us have as followers of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja. We are holding on to his lotus feet for mercy, more so than belonging to any society, temple or sanga.
Consequently, this sanga is very individualistic and resists anything that feels too hierarchical. This is a great quality of the sanga.
One of the challenges we face is that Gurudeva’s sanga is spread out across the world and is made up of devotees sprinkled here and there, not concentrated in and around temples and country communities.
Srila Gurudeva is very clear that he wants us to continue his mission and deepen our bhakti through devotional service rendered with each other and also with new people. He wants us to co-operate, emphasize the good qualities in all, and overlook each other’s short comings. And he desires participation from devotees across the spectrum. Disciples of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, from other Gaudiya Vaisnava Acaryas, sanyasis, senior women, the Gurukulis, all generations of devotees, youth (male and female), members of the Bhakti Trust, members of other Societies & Trusts, of Seva Teams, all devotees who perform service and have a desire in their heart to continue the mission of our Guru Parampara, they are all invited to offer and share their wealth of experience and years of service.
We will have our first meeting in Sri Keshavji Gaudiya Math, Navadvip, on the 20th and 21st March, just after Gaura Purnima festival 2011. Over the course of the next 6 weeks, until the end of February 2011, informal discussions will be held to help us understand and formulate how we can carry out this important instruction of our Gurudeva. In this regard you are most welcome to provide any favorable suggestions.
Please submit these to the following email address: bhakti4all@gmail.com
We invite you to be present for our first official meeting, organized under the guidance and with the heartly blessings of Srila Gurudeva.
We want to inform you now so that you have time to make your travel arrangements in order to participate in this meeting. As we are approaching Gaura Purnima, we will communicate more details such as exact venue, times, facilities and agendas. We hope that you are much inspired to come together to serve Srila Gurudeva’s mission; we look forward to receive your responses and questions.
Aspiring for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas,
Brajanath dasa and Yasodananda dasa
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Kripa and kapatya. Guru gives one or the other. We should always feel humble and pray for his mercy instead of thinking we know so much. Just like Srila Prabhupada and Gurudeva said, ‘don’t divorce’. In one case Prabhupada agreed for one of his disciple’s divorce because he knew he would have done it anyway, so, to minimize the disobediance… he agreed. Gurudeva is telling to Prema prayojana prabhu to divorce… What to think ? If so many think it is good to go in group therapies, what can Gurudeva say. The request is not coming from a pure soul, but from a soul conditioned by the mind for billions of life times to enjoy. So, we know what means ‘at once’…Material hapinness and distress should be considered the same according to Bhagavad-gita. Who really accepts ? Noone ! Everybody wants to be happy, this is human. So, not finding hapinness on the pure bhakti path, we go astray. But, not to worry so much because…it is a crooked way. Haribolo dandavats and pranams to all. Gurudeva, we know you are the only one who can really love us, that’s why we love you, you inspire this love in our desert like heart. Gaur Premanande, jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Hare Krsna to all readers,
The controversy about whether or not Satvatove is ruining the exclusive, image of Gurudeva’s sangha is in question here. Gurudeva’s sangha has always been recognized as one which delivers only: PURE BHAKTI
Here are Gurudeva’s own words….as he said to Syamarani in the video when she asked him about Satvatove. If you listen to the video carefully Gurudeva says he has told everything all ready in his books.
So lets see what is in Gurudeva’s books on this topic:
Bhakti-tattva-viveka (Quote)
page 2
“….First, knowing the true nature of suddha-bhakti, will dispel our ignorance concerning the topic of bhakti and thus make our human life successful by allowing us to relish the nectar derived from engaging suddha-bhakti in its pure form.
Secondly, it will enable us to PROTECT OURSELVES, from the POLLUTED and MIXED concepts which currently exist in the name of SUDDHA-bhakti.
Unfortunately, in the present day society in the name of Suddha-Bhakti, various types of mixed devotion such as:
……karma misra (mixed with fruitive action)
……jnana-misra (mixed with various types of yoga processes
as well as various polluted and imaginary conceptions
are spreading everywhere like germs of plague. People in general consider these polluted and mixed conceptions to be bhakti, respect them as such, and thus remain deprived of suddha-bhakti. These polluted and mixed concepts are our greatest enemies.
Some people say that there is no value in bhakti, that God is an imaginary sentiment only, that man has merely created the image of a God in his imagination, and that bhakti is just a diseased state of consciousness which cannot benefit us in any way. These types of people, though opposed to bhakti, cannot do much harm to us because we can easily recognise them and avoid them.
BUT THOSE WHO PROPAGATE that BHAGAVAD BHAKTI is the highest dharma, yet BEHAVE AGAINST THE PRINCIPLES OF SUDDHA BHAKTI and also INSTRUCT OTHERS, against the principles of suddha bhakti can be especially harmful to us.
In the NAME OF BHAKTI, they instruct us against the actual principles of bhakti and ultimately lead us onto a path which is totally opposed to bhagavad-bhakti.
Therefore, with great endeavour our previous acaryas have defined the svarupa or intrinsic nature of bhakti and REPEATEDLY CAUTIONED US to KEEP OURSELVES AWAY FROM POLLUTED AND MIXED CONCEPTS. ”
end of Gurudeva’s words from Bhakti-tattva-viveka.
Gurudeva’s books are not only for us to distribute, but to read and assimilate as well. Why? Because in this material world THERE IS DANGER AT EVERY STEP..(quote Srila Prabhupada)
Without being knowledgable and introspective, we can be misled by the misunderstanding of others.
Of course you have your own free will, to choose how to apply this very serious instruction of Srila Gurudeva’s.
In this country everyone has a right to ‘ FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ‘.
When we make our choices in this world, we alone are responsible.
All glories to Gurudeva’s real message of Pure Unadulterated Bhakti.
Dandavats
I can agree with Srimati Syamarani Didi regarding the point of disfuncionalty of many devotees, expecially Western ones.
I remenber even Srila Gurudeva told that “we should open mental hospital for many devotees”
I am not joking.
For long time I was fed up with our sanga due to this problem, coming from disfuncional background.
And this scares many educated, intelligent and balanced people to join to our sanga.
On other hands such a disfunctional sanga can only attract the same quality of people, disfunctional people and can lead to new type of sectarianism where people are happy in own disfunctional reality and “feel happy” there.
Any ballanced person who would like to be part of such a sanga is going to find almost impossible to break the walls unless he will adopt himself “go down to their disfunctional standards”. If he will fail to do so, he has to leave.
I am just expressing my life realisation.
I very apologise for my poor english..
Radhe Radhe!!
Haribol Muralidhar
I am sorry to hear of your suffering. That means some fault exists. I am happy , hearing, chanting, remembering, pastimes from the SrimadBhagavatam. The real bonafide process of purebhakti never gives suffering.
Something is wrong somewhere.
I have a recording of a lecture of Srila Prabhupada giving Bhagavatam class, where you can hear many devotees coughing, and coughing.
Srila Prabhupada stopped, right in the middle of the lecture and asked: ” why is there this coughing”? ” have the devotees no warm cloth?” ” you should take care and maintain proper health”.
Srila Prabhupada was a balanced , and practical pure Vaisnava, and he cared about the physical well being of his devotees. Lord Caitanya also cared about his devotees, as the Chaitanya Caritamrta is full of pastimes of loving and nurishing exchanges between devotees.
In the Bhagavadgita is it written,,,one should not eat too much, or eat too little, one should not sleep too much or sleep too little. Real application of PURE BHAKTI, brings balance. True bhakti brings peace.
Dandavats and pranams prabhu, jaya Gurudeva. Good news, we are not this mind ! But, if we talk about disfunctionality etc… why did Shyamarani didi felt to attend such a seminar as well as Vrinda didi, both got so much association with Gurudeva. “Conditioned life is unsanity..” Srila Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja. Gour Premanande
but I just agree with this one thing, Many people from our sanga needs help but it DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AGREE WITH satvatove workshops being part of Hari Katha festivals!!! It is complete absurd.
There are so many other much more bona fide ways how to help our sanga.
I am coming from totally disfunctional family, my brother was a criminal, now probably 7 feet under, my mother bully,violent , mentally ill.
How I help myself?
EVERYTHING, ALL THE INFORMATION AND HELPS YOU CAN FIND IN
BHAGAVAD GITA
SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM
(and because I did not have a bona fide guru I was taking help from
Ayurveda 60%
PATANJALI YOGA(PRANA-YAMA and so on )30%
and as a handy help “buddist psychology” 10%
..reiki.. just small help
and everything for free, gratis!!!!!!
IF THE PERSON REALLY WANT TO HELP DEVOTEES TO BECOME BALLANCED WHY NOT SHOW THE MEDICINE WHICH IS IN HOLY SCRIPURES??? THERE IS SO MANY KING OF MEDICINES DESCRIBED IN BHAGAVAD GITA OR SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM OR AYURVEDA,for devotees who need help??
garuda Purana f.e, describe all kind of ilnesses and causes of it. Vedic literature is full of it, just how to help people to be ballanced and mentaly healthy and how to achieve highest destination which is pure bhakti.
DO NOT TELL ME PLEASE THAT Satvatove is related to Vedas or pure bhakti
Demons(yaksas, raksasas) are also very expert in phychology, they got their black tantras but they will only use it for bad purposes.
Just be aware….
Hari bol Muralidha
Satvatove is not related to PURE AYURVEDA.
Pure Ayurvedic knowledge can only be given by a bonafide, representative of Ayurvedic medicine. In India there are such Ayurvedic doctors that can help cure bodily and mental sufferings.
But one danger in the western worlds, is that some people have taken knowledge of Ayurveda, and mixed it up with their new age practices, or their own ideas,in the own personal busness and this has contaminated the real benefit of Ayurveda.
If you take the advice of a person who does not have full knowledge, you can be damaged. Once when my son was little, and was sick, a friend of mine advised me to bring him to an Indian swami, who knew something of Ayurveda. I went there, but he really did not know much, and gave me the wrong advise. My son got worse. Instead, Krsna answered my prayers, and the next week I met a Bonafide Ayurvedic Doctor, in his late 70′s, who had been practising Ayurveda all his life, as his father before him had done. Well, he came with me to my home,,,,he looked at my son. We went together to the Indian market and he bought some herbs, and roots, and silgit rock, and then we came back and he made medicine for my son, in my own kitchen. And I watched. He even invited me to go to India and become his apprentice. He never charged me money for his help or anything. He mood was so loving and kind, like a father.
So the cures for bodily illness have been given by Krsna in His Form of Dhanvantari, and we can take help from Krsna through Bonafide representatives of Real Ayurvedic medicine. Srila Gurudeva had so many doctors looking after him, and one was an Ayurvedic doctor.
We just have to find the bonafide one.
The result of going to someone who is a cheater, and who takes only a little knowledge of Ayurveda and mixes it with his own imperfect method,,,,will not cure the patient but may even harm him.
So be careful. The material body, as Srila Prabhupada has stated needs to be looked after.
Hare Krishna.
Sri Guru is the direct representative of Krishna. Up until now his directions are obeyed. Why now are they being questioned? We are instructed not to. Guru’s disciples are wonderful people and have acted as both the instructors and the go betweens to all of the devotees. They are both trustworthy and affectionate to us all.
To quote reams and reams of scripture is not necessarily an indication of someone who knows what scripture means. A parrot can do the same. What is really present here is false ego/maya disturbing everyone’s bhajan.
Sri Guru would not make a decision which is wrong. This disturbing argument is on a very public forum and does not serve any of the devotees.
Hearing what someone says does not mean agreement. I agree with what Nsringar Das has written. It is very relevant. There have been no direct answers to his questions. To continue to create an atmosphere of such rejection of guru’s instruction (and reading Symarani’s letter it is completely obvious what Srilagurudev approved and rejected) is what is really detrimental to bhakti. How on earth does this support what Madava and others are trying to accomplish at this hour? How does this show itself to potential new devotees and, devotees around the world looking to this site for information and guidance. Srila Gurudev’s word is absolute. You have a choice to accept it or not.
Two years does not make an authority on any subject! There are devotees who are too humble to put themselves forward in this way. Your choice here is to obey Sri Guru or not.
Hari bol Hamish,
Glad to meet you. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. All glories to following Pure Bhakti, in full knowledge.
Srila Gurudeva’s directions are being obeyed. Srila Gurudeva wants us all to engage in PURE BHAKTI, and not MIX, it with anything else.
Srila Gurudeva, wanted devotees to speak freely, and express themselves, without FEAR. This is what we are doing. We are following Gurudeva’s order to discuss without fear, on the topic of whether or not Satvatove is coming from a BONAFIDE DISCIPLIC SUCCESION, and whether or not in the long term it’s questionable methods of “HOW”, ITS PRINCIPLES, are applied will in fact be favorable or not…..to help us understand
…trinad api….
Srila Gurudeva said Satvatove was not PURE BHAKTI.
Syamarani didi, herself expressed to me she did not know that Satvatove’s origin for it’s method of ‘HOW”, TO TEACH,,,came from the questionable Landmark institution where they actually perfomed experiments on dogs, by taking out their stomach to see if the dog would still salivate, when food would be put in front of it.
The debate here is between devotees who disagree with the validity of Satvatove’s methods, and who disagree that Satvatove is in fact PURE BHAKTI.
New people, and devotees around the world can be happy to know, people are concerned about the welfare of Srila Gurudeva’s mission, and want to preserve the reputation of this mission for giving what Srila Gurudeva has always been giving and that is PURE BHAKTI.
We are following Gurudeva’s order to discuss amongst ourselves , so that we will not blindly lead devotees into something that is not PURE BHAKTI.
I pray, that the mercy of Guru, Sastra and Sadhu guide this sangha.. I am still waiting for replies from the senior authorities of this Sangha namely Brajanatha Prabhu, Madhava Maharaja, and Premananda prabhu.
Hare Krishna,
What you are doing is questioning Sr Guru’s ability to discriminate what is right for his devotees. You paint it with self-opinions and self-aggrandizements and humiliate all the devotees by your need for shock value…especially when most of what you are referring to are matters of which you have no experience.
This is not about open expression it is your fear mongering and need to control. You do not “hear” and you do not “respond” you use “tactics” and these are as distasteful as those you keep trumping up as ways of “manipulating’ devotees to question Gurudev’s instruction. If the text compliments you, you purr like a stroked cat, if it is not what you want to hear you drop into creating a disturbance via shock tactics. Actually, what I hear from you is that you need to look at yourself. With respect.
Hari bol Hamish pranams
All glories to the non-envious and humble Vaisnavas. All glories to this great culture of Bharatavarsha that teaches us to respect women, mothers, the cow, the brahmana, the children and the elders in our community.
Thankyou for sharing your mind here.
I personally do not know a thing about “Shock Doctrine”, or how it works. I have only studied my spiritual masters books. We have been given the order of Guru to discuss without unneccessary judgement. I am trying to follow that order.
It is common sense to be polite when some one is polite to you. It is natural to be loving to someone, when they are loving to you. It is natural to be respectful when someone is respectful to you. It takes real humility to remain polite to someone who insults you.
This forum is not about insulting others. It is about trying to clear the doubts which have arisen. Why try to hide it, and sweep it under the rug?
Devotees are looking for answers to very important questions. That is what is going on here prabhu.
All glories to the lotus feet of my spiritual master who always dealt with me, with the utmost kindness and love.
Chanakya Pandit states, you can tell the quality of a community but how they respect their womanfolk.
Mark my words, this controversy won’t go away. In future it will come to be a divisive point which has potential to harm Srila Gurudeva’s good name.
Begging the sangha’s forgiveness for my bluntness as I can only express as I understand. But it would be wiser not to frame Srila Gurudeva as giving unconditional endorsement of Satvatove-style workshops and trainings.
There is a lot I could share, but would prefer to do so privately. In the absence of tape recorded or video instructions directly from Srila Gurudeva’s lips…it can only be “interpretation” of Srila Gurudeva’s instructions.
With respect to all seniors and in particular Srimati Syamarani Didi who deserves all respect, and whose instruction certainly does supercede mine, I cannot tell you enough how regrettable associating Satvatove-style trainings as fully and unconditionally endorsed and encouraged by Srila Gurudeva is going to be. And because of what I know, short of video or audio recording of His direct and unequivocal endorsement, I do not believe that was His intent.
We are not debating people or personal qualities, we are debating the CONTROVERSIES and the effects they HAVE HAD on devotee’s…and I know this because such was privately communicated to me.
We are debating the merits of UNQUALIFIED APPROVAL given to a system with controversial origins, controversial techniques and controversial philosophical underpinnings.
And the controversies can be factually substantiated.
So again I put it delicately, PLEASE do not link Satvatove-oriented trainings DIRECTLY and with UNQUALIFIED FULL ENDORSEMENT of our Srila Gurudeva and IPBYS because the full implications of the controversy will eventually be understood, not just by this sangha, but before the body of World Vaishnav community. And I believe that has the potential to really shake people’s faith.
Communications training He instructed. But why does this become equivalent to blanket endorsement of Satvatove-based psychotherapeutic encounter groups? And so yet again, I urge the seniors to re-evaluate the message of unconditional endorsement, as representing direct Guru instruction and senior instruction to the sangha. What other position can I take believing what I do? I try to speak privately and people just ignore.
Sangha and seniors, please help me on what to do to protect reputation of our beloved Srila Gurudeva and His legacy and His sangha which He gave so many uncountable buckets of blood to protect with shelter of His love.
And where I’m mistaken, may you all please forgive me and teach me so I also understand more in line with our Gurudeva’s perspective. because if the seniors do not hear and acknowledge what the objections are, I cannot accept this was in fact Srila Gurudeva’s endorsement and instruction. I do not think it would even be possible for Him to give such an endorsement.
He said it is not bhakti. Now whole sangha is being pitched that psychotherapeutic workshops are an important pre-requisite for developing bhakti? I think it is rather the ruin of bhakti from both origin of controversies and from sehajia Mayavadi philosphical foundation.
And Hamish Prabhu, no one has to be an “expert” in controversy to recognize the implications of controversy.
Dandavats
I apologise, i do not have a time to read all the post
regarding karma-misra bhakti
only person who follows KARMA (fruitive Vedic path from karma Khanda section of the Vedas) is called KARMI
Person who practice bhakti (worship Thaturji, worship Tulsi, chant holy name,celebrate Janmasthami, Ekadasi and so on)
mixed with such a Vedic karma is called KARMA-MISRA BHAKTA
Such a book as Arurveda, Puranas, Itihasas, Patanjali yoga and many others are books related to KARMA which leads to BHAKTI
BY FOLLOWING THEM THE PERSON WILL DEVELOP SRADHA IN VEDIC LITERATURE WHICH IS A BASE TO DEVELOP SRADHA IN BHAKTI SASTRAS
and this is real help which you can offer to our sanga
Help our sanga to understand how their problems are related to their activities on the base of vedic literature. THIS WAY LEADS TO PURE BHAKTI.
Satvatove? Does not fit into it
-it is not pure bhakti
-it is not karma-misra bhakti
-it is not even karma
It can only lead away from spiritual life and take you away from it (without you even knowing) So be aware
Radhe Radhe!!
dandavats
Dont remember.. Tattva sandharbha, Jiva Gosvami wrote about sastras, books written by acaryas. He very much amphisised that the sastras are even more important than anything else because in absence of uttama ahikarii it can show you the BONA FIDE WAY.
Everythings is written is sastras..
Dandavats
I would really like,very much like to not to believe any conspiracy theories, unfortunatelly we are in the age of internet and communication where you can trace everything.
Like Bolsevick “rewolution”, who was behind it?
Very rich people, it was investment and big business…
Very rich people..from what background?
I do not want to be offencive and “materialistic” but
I really see highjacking our IPBYS like this happened in ISCKON and so on.
Behind it are rich, but just materally inteligent people who step by step want you to belive that nothing is something. They want you to believe that false gold is the real one…
Haribol Muralidhar.
I don’t know, much about conspiracy theories, I only know what Srila Prabhupada talks about in his books. Srila Prabhupada says the demoniac spirit,of society is there in those who are gross materialists. Who do not believe in the personal existence of God’s, love and protection.
The Demoniac Mentality is described in Bhagavadgita:
“The Divine and Demoniac Natures Text 18, Ch. 16
Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demons become envious of the S.P.of Godhead, who is situated in their own bodies and in the bodies of others and blaspheme against the real religion.”
purport:..” A demoniac person, being always against God’s supremacy does not like to believe in the scriptures. He is envious of both the scriptures and the existence of the S.P. of Godhead. This is caused by his so called prestige and his accumulation of wealth and strength.
He does not know that the present life is a preparation for the next life. Not knowing this, he is actually envious of his own self, as well as of others. He commits violence on other bodies and on his own. he does not care for the supreme control of the personality of Godhead, because he has no knowledge.
Being envious of the scriptures and the S.P. of Godhead, he puts forward false arguments against the existence of God and denies the scriptural authority. He thinks himself independent and powerful in every action. He thinks that since no one can equal him in strength, power or wealth, he can act in any way and no one can stop him.
If he has an enemy who might check the advancement of his sensual activities, he makes plans to cut him down by his own power.”
These are words from the Bhagavadgita. God’s own words coming to us from Srila Prabhupada, God’s own pure devotee.
Asking ourselves, what is the parampara of the Landmark institute, which is the basis of Satvatove?
It was brought to my attention that Landmark did experiments on dogs. Taking out their stomachs, and making painful experiments to see whether or not saliva would come to the animal if food was presented to it, even though it had no stomach.
This is the PARAMPARA OF THE SATVATOVE method of teaching you all, how to become Trinad api…………
And what does our pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada say:
” the demoniac commits violence on other bodies and on his own.”
How much of a clearer communication do we need other than this to know….what to accept,,,and what to reject,,,as favorable for our bhajan ?
“Therefore if Syamarani didi really recommend us to attend the workshop, we should do. Because I personally believe that the workshop (with her guidance) will be led in Krishna Conscious way”…
There is a better way than this. Lets ask BV Madhava Mah, BV Bon Mah or Sripad Premananda Prabhu what they think about it.I think..if it is still not an offence.. they are more advance than Syamarani Didi
Dandavat pranams!
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga…
Just to inform all those involved; these workshops are not a new phenomenon in our sanga — as a matter of fact, they have been going on for the past couple of years with Srila Gurudeva’s FULL APPROVAL. Dilep, Ananta, Dina Doyal, Syamarani didi and Nemi Maharaja and others have all been blessed by Guru Maharaja to conduct this seva.
The devotees you mentioned above are all available via their personal email addresses and/or Facebook accounts, so please do ask in order to alleviate your doubts. And please let them be excused for not being actively involved in forums as these due to other preaching engagements.
Yours in service,
Raghava
“with Srila Gurudeva’s FULL APPROVAL.”
Srila Gurudeva told Syamarani Didi that this was NOT Bhakti, but she could go if she wanted and felt it could give her tools to help her preaching.
That is a qualified, not full approval. Neither is it an endorsement for these programs. Neither is it an instruction for these programs to become the focus of our IPBYS. Qualified in the sense that it negates the relationship to Bhakti. And this is not quite the way it is being marketed and presented to the sangha now.
If you have any other communications of our Srila Gurudeva on this subject, either recordings or video, etc, then by all means, please share them.
Hari bol Raghava Pandit das,
Our most advanced devotees in the sangha such as Madhava Maharaja, Tirtha Maharaja, Premananda prabhu’s,input, insight, and guidance would be the need of the hour.
Their expertise in pure bhakti, is needed to shine a light on these matters of discourse.
We all need clarity, decisions made now will affect the future of the Sangha.
these decisions were already made while srila gurudeva was physically among us, and with his full approval and encouragement, and these workshops have been going on for several years now. there is no controversy here.
yrs
raghava
Haribol
It is probably very good instruction for somebody who stay in the temple and is pujari.
My wife was sick for 2 month, she can not take any aleophatic medicine because she is pregnant.
12 hours at work every day/5days a week
I bought fresh organic garlic for her, every day 25% after 4 days she recover.
I know BV BOn Maharaja was also taking onion prescribed by doctor..
I have been taking garlic and onoin as medicine for last 12 years, it does not make me lusty, ever.
I recomment it everyone
Radhe Radhe!
Hari bol Muralidhar:
No one , can tell another person what to do really. We can make humble suggestions that is all.
But Sri Guru, the bonafide representative of God Himself can TELL US WHAT TO DO.
Our Gurudeva’s, both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva have told us:
” To become Vaisnava’s we should not take garlic and onions”
Have you heard the story of their origin? Have you heard that they come from the modes of ignorance and passion. They do affect the mind in a negative way. They will not help devotees to attain Satva Guna.
A Bonafide Ayurvedic Doctor, can give a cure in the mode of goodness. Such cures are available. If you so desire, and if it is your lot in life to have such opportunity.
Praying the Lord’s kindness guides you in the right way……….
humbly Pracetana.
Thanks very much murali dhar ji, i will see with my ayurvedic doctor what we can do … if it really helps me etc …. thanks again ..
Jay Gurudev!!!
ddvats all
i know that vaishnavas or aspirant a vaishnavas dont take garlic etc.. but my question was, “Even if its prescribed by a ayurvedic doctor?” even if no other medicine is helping me??? or sastras have a excecion on that case as related with other things …
iam trying to clarify more this because many person some times ask me abiut also, and i dont know whats the correct answer.. thanks for patience.
Jay gurudev!!!
Baladeva das, Hari bol,
When Srila Prabhupada was a young child, he became very sick, and his parents, especially his mother was very worried about him. No medicine was helping. One doctor told his parents to give him CHICKEN SOUP,,,,,,,,,, but Srila Prabhupada REFUSED.
What a great man does, others follow in his foot steps.
A real Vaisnava will not compromise.
I know for a fact, that for any disease, there are various herbs to give a cure, from the 3 different modes of material nature.
For your disease there are herbs that can cure it from those 3 catagories.
Herbs in the mode of goodness
Herbs in the mode of passion
Herbs in the mode of ignorance.
A real qualified Ayurvedic doctor knows what herbs in the mode of goodness can help. Otherwise he is bogus…………..and you should look for someone who is bonafide.
Be careful in life and before accepting anything, be informed……..don’t follow blindly………
wishing for your happiness.
mother pracetana
Dandavats
It is very easy to tell “use medicine in mode of goodness” As you know ayurvredic medicine is just not the only factor which cure your illness.
Like for instance if you have a heavy cold, you can try take echinacea or golden seal so recommemded and in the mode of goodnees but if you live in the temple where all doors and windows are wide open and draft is all over, if you sleep on the floor and take poor quality transcendental food, if you are forced to stay on the street selling insence or books in the subzero temperature and so on, IT WILL NEVER HELP YOU. I was forced to take this so called “medicine in the mode of goodness” and I was alwasys sick and more sick.
Medicine in the mode of goodness will never work in the invironment of tamo guna.
This is why garlic and onoin helps very much.
I spoke about it to BV Bon Mah and he told me that he also drunk onion juice while living in Mathura to purify his blood,… I hope he did not lose his bhakti then..
He told me something about garlic as well but I do not remember who was taking and so on.
Haribol, Raghava Pandit das
Respects
You have implied that Srila Gurudeva gave full approval for Satvatove workshops.?
In my very recent correspondence with Syamarani didi, she revealed to me that she herself was not aware, until my communication with her, that Satvatove’s basis, or foundation for their methods of mind games was originally coming from the controversial LANDMARK SYSTEM.
If she herself did not know……..then how could she have informed Srila Gurudeva about what it really was?
The answer Gurudeva gave to caution us was that:
” it is not pure bhakti ”
Pure Bhakti has no side effects which can harm us. But man – made, schemes, of experimental mind games may have future side effects.
Why present this as a feature of bhakti, ( when it is not),,,and make it available during the Sacred Parikrama…….then it becomes mixed , and colors the parikrama with a mundane tint.
Dandavats Pracetana didi,
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga….
Syamarani didi responded in another thread today. Here is what she wrote:
Dandavat pranama Jayanta prabhu,
thank you so much for all your letters regarding the importance of following purely the principles of Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada and our guru-parampara.
I have a sense, therefore, that you will find joy and solace in knowing that Srila Gurudeva has authorized and blessed certain communication skills and coaching workshops for the devotees who are interested and who will use them in the Lord’s service.
I am on a big marathon right now – a mad rush – fo publishing a couple of Gurudeva’s books for Gaura Purnima, so I will not be able to write any other letter on this subject at this time, but I do sense a need on my part to share the following with you. I am enthusiastic to share a bit of history with your good self.
In 1992, a few months after I met Srila Gurudeva in Vrndavana, and made the decision to be under his guidance, I asked him if I can learn harmonium (I had already been taking a few lessons from a very nice devotee), which even our Prabhupada loved to use. Gurudeva said “no.” He said I would become puffed up if I would learn it. So I never learned it. But it is fine for other’s bhakti, as we know.
Still living in Vrindavan, a year later I was deathly ill, and Gurudeva sent me to Bombay for recovery. The hospital I went to didn’t work for me, but there in Bombay I met a Reiki master who cured me of the disease very quickly and also taught me Reiki. So I happily helped so many sick devotees for a few weeks. But then someone suggested me to ask Gurudeva if it was good me to use it. I asked him and he gave a definitive “no”. He said it was a mystic power, and that it would hurt my bhakti if I used it to help others, because I would become proud. He said to use it only in great emergencies, very rarely, so that is what I did, and soon I stopped using it. But I know that doesn’t mean that a healer type of devotee would necessarily get too proud by using it in Gurudeva’s service.
Then, as I might have mentioned in my paradigm shift article, I had thought that communication workshop system of Dhira Govindas was totally against bhakti, some mushy new age thing, and especially since I heard Iskcon gurus, who were against Gurudeva were going to it. And besides that, I was a devotee, so I was transcendental to it.
Then, a year later, I heard that Vrnda didi, Brajanath prabhu’s good wife, who has been traveling with Gurudeva and has been with him 24/7 for about 15 years was assisting to organize the Dhira Govinda’s workshop at our Govardhan temple, right near Gurudeva’s rooms there. I also heard from her that her involvement with the organizing of it was blessed by Gurudeva.
As I mentioned, I still had great trepidation about attending. So just after mangala arati on the first day of the 3 day seminar, I went to Gurudeva to ask if he thought I should attend. I told him that I had been criticized by one of his disciples that my preaching doesn’t sufficiently reach my audience, because I am not aware of their needs. Gurudeva told me “It is not bhakti, but if it helps with preaching, then do it.”
So I did it. I didn’t agree with some of the exercises or points, so I dropped them from my mind, and the ones I considered usable for helping me in preaching hari-katha and helping devotees and new people – the ones I felt were in accord with the principles of bhakti and especially trinadapi – I tried to practice, and found it very helpful.
Then, around 2007, since Srila Gurudeva had been ordering his Bhakti Trust devotees to make a formal Society for him, he established the beginning of a system for that. He created an Advisory Council of about 120 devotees, sannyasis, senior preachers and others, and then they started meeting. Then, for Kartika and Navadvipa, one of the Bhakti Trust devotees, Yasodanandana prabhu, personally paid for a friend of his, a professional business consultant named Dilip (Indian, but not a “devotee”), who was a teacher of team building skills for multi-million dollar businesses. Gurudeva blessed all that, and he even came to one of the meetings Dilip was having with us. We sent out a report of that to the hari-katha mailing list. All the things Gurudeva asked about and discussed at that Advisory Council Meeting.
A year later, Ananta prabhu, who will be facilitating the communication skills seminar next month in Navadvipa, also got blessings from Gurudeva for his work with the devotees.
Two years later, this last Italy festival, 2010, I brought Dina Dayal prabhu to meet with Gurudeva on the last day. Dina Dayal had been initiated 13 years earlier, but he left the sanga because the devotees were cold to him when he was a new devotee. Now he was coming back after 13 years of being away, and now he was a professional coach. (Coaching, in brief is a system of helping the coachee come to his /her own clear decisions by asking the right questions – instead of trying to control the person by insisting they follow what the coach thinks the best thing to do is.) I told Gurudeva about him and asked if he can help the devotees to work better together in his sanga, and he gave his blessings for that as well.
So, in a nutshell, Gurudeva has blessed and authorized this endeavor of communication skills, as a principle, and that is why we are doing it. You don’t need it because you are already “there”, but for devotees who think they will benefit, who want to be trinadapi but for various reasons think they need some tools, or who want to influence people to come to Krsna consciousness and need some neutral tools to communicate better and more effectively, the seminar is for them.
A devotee just sent me his thoughts yesterday. If you think it helps for clarification, then great. If not, you are free to ignore it.
◦ It has been recognised that certain dysfunctions exist within our sanga owing in the most part due to the fact that the members have been drawn from a dysfunctional material society.
◦ Modern society has developed a range of anti-dotes in the form of self-help books and seminars, such as non-violent communication, empathic listening and coaching. Authors such as Steven Covey and Blair Singer are widely read by devotees.
◦ Members of our sanga have a general distrust for wisdom that is not coming directly from the Vedas. This is partly due to there being some commercially very successful self help techniques that are at odds with the Vedic philosophy (such as “The Secret”, which is at odds with the principle of karma).
◦ Many techniques, however, are quite harmonious with the Vedic model and have been identified by devotees to be of genuine use.
◦ Traditionally this type of wisdom was provided by the elders in the community, but in modern society, elders no longer play this role as modern media has been more successful at capturing the attention of the youth.
I’ll end here. We are still eagerly waiting for all the many many videos you made of Gurudeva in his festivals, so we can send them to Isa prabhu for purebhakti.tv. I pray that something is happening to get that to him? The devotees and non devotees will benefit so much. You have done a great service.
All the best.
Vaisnava-sevabhilasi,
Syamarani dasi
All glories to the love and devotion of Syamarani didi, for her beloved Gurudeva.
It will be very interesting to see, how the people of this sangha will view those of us who do not wish to participate in this Satvatove ” workshop”.
Will the same love and affection and respect remain for those such as myself who see this controversial Land mark based mind game as something to be avoided with great caution?
Only time will tell,
All glories to Pure Bhaki
Hari bol,
Pranams…..Syamarani didi,
It came to my attention that your own words:
“I didn’t agree with some of the exercises or points (of Satvatove), so I dropped them from my mind.”
Personally, you may have been able to drop those negative exercises from your mind,,,but what about the new devotees, who are not trained in Bhakti, and may not have the purebhakti, tools with which to “drop them from their mind”, as you have done.
Lord Brahma was able to drop from his mind, even the demoniac bodies he had to create out of duty, to execute the Lord’s order of creation. Did he get affected by that association? Are you sure devotees, will not be affected by the negative exersizes that still remain as an impression in the mind?
The samskars we allow into the mind do affect us. That is why Srila Gurudeva wants us to fill our mind with positive pure bhakti samskars. Why should we even risk, putting in the negative ones?
Are we immune from this type of samskar?
humbly pracetana dasi
Dandavat pranams to all!
I am not a good reader, still because English remains a foreign language to me.
Thank you Pracetana didi for taking time to explain! I recognize your advice of “caution” to attend satvatove workshop. Communication is a common problem for many of us. If one workshop can give tool to improve the communication among devotees and help each other to develop BHAKTI, why not? But the danger of it is that by some effects in positive sense, we may start to over emphasizing the importance of this kind of tools and forget Bhakti as drive force. The danger is that we may leave the path of BHAKTI, start to worship Mayavadi conception and believe that they work better. The question is: are we capable of distinguish our Krishna Consciousness from the other Mayavadi Disciplines for example?
Pracetana didi, I read that you study Ayurveda. Deepa Chopra is very dominant in today’s Ayurveda teaching in the whole world. We may read his book humbly. We may adopt some Ayurvedic ideas he present humbly. But we will not adopt his Mayavadic view; this requires our capacity of distinguishing; hence be cautious; hence I share the same concern as you have.
Bhakti is an inner movement. External activities may look the same for everybody, but the motivations inside could be different. Syamarani didi attended the workshop with pure intention to improve her communication skills in preaching. How humble is she! Even she as perfect as she is efforts to communicate better, then why not us? As long as we always check ourselves if we are still on the true path of PureBhakti.
Therefore if Syamarani didi really recommend us to attend the workshop, we should do. Because I personally believe that the workshop (with her guidance) will be led in Krishna Conscious way. Our Gurudeva is the controler of all! May we be controlled by Him alone!
The last thing I want to share from my personal experience: my husband is an Ayurvedic Practitioner. He helps his clients by giving insight of souls and God; many times he did not mention the name of Krishna explicitely, but he implies. He had a library of thousands of books in all filosofical subjects; he glanced them and left them; the only books he values as he told me are our Gurudeva’s books
.
Sorry for my difficult English. Please forgive the mistakes I made hereabove.
Radhe Radhe!
Humbly
Yamuna devi dasi
Hari bol Yamuna devi dasi
Please accept my humble obeisancies to both you and your good husband.
Ayurveda became part of my life, when my children got very sick, and I did not want to use the pharmacyudical drugs and methods of healing. The modern clinical methods of most family doctors have very bad side effects.
I knew that if I took advice from Ayurveda it would help because this was the system of medicine Srila Prabhupada knew about. Ayurveda comes directly from the incarnation of Krsna known as Dhanvantari, and this system of medicine has no bad side effects. As a mother, I knew I had to become experienced in the basics of Ayurveda because I was concerned about the health of my children.
Is this pure bhakti? You decide. Ayurveda gives us, as you and your husband know a regime of living in the mode of goodness. Regulation, sattvic diet, proper herbs to clear negativity, and medicine to cure all ailments.
We can surely provide our society with these benefits, but not under the institution of Pure Bhakti, because Ayurveda still deals within the catagory of the three gunas, or modes of nature. It deals with the proper functioning of the body, and mind. As in any society there is a need of a medical system. So if you make this your own personal business , no problem, and it can help many devotees.
But Ayurveda is not direct worship of Lord Krsna. It does not fall in the catagory of Sravanam, Kirtanam , Visnu. The temple is exclusively, only for the nine processes of direct devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Prabhupada would have arranged for Ayurvedic classes to be taught in his Gaudiya math. He would have given courses and diplomas to all if he thought it was pure bhakti. But he did not. He knew that if people wanted to get medicine it was already available in the established Ayurvedic hospitals and clinics. There are many Ayurvedic sites already available on the internet, and many books, and cookbooks as well. But this is not pure bhakti.
To mix Pure unadulterated Bhakti with anything else makes it…mixed devotional service…and that is the danger here. Srila Gurudeva’s sangha is known world wide for presenting only, ONE THING…” pure love and devotion to Radhika”…….and this should never be changed. If we start mixing our goal of life even with good things, like Ayurveda how will pure bhakti remain,,,,,pure bhakti….
Did the 6 gosvami’s establish schools of Ayurveda? Did Bhaktivinoda Thakur establish schools of Ayurveda? My point is that Ayurveda has it’s purpose but it should be outside of the temple, and outside of the direct process of sravanam, kirtanam, visnu.
I also studied Vastu. Why? Because when I read in the Caitanya Caritamrta, than Brahmana’s were expert in all aspects of Vedic Science…..that’s when my interest awoke. Again this information of Vastu is found in the Vedas, the Stapatya Veda that comes from the Atharva Veda. Again it is connected to Krsna, but not devotional service directly, such as in pure bhakti.
So there are institutions, that teach Vastu principles, and Vastu can also enhance one’s material well being. It is a known fact that if you live in a house with a north, or east main entrance door, that the Godly auspicious energies of the planets enter your home and bring auspiciousness. But is this pure bhakti…..no…it only helps one to become materially happy. So should Gurudeva’s sangha give courses on Vastu, and charge devotees money, and teach them how to be materially happy?
Devotees who want this can go to established Vastu institutions and get this information and improve their material quality of life. There is nothing wrong in that, but it is not pure bhakti.
I have also studied astrology, because I read in Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavatam, that previously in India all the families would consult the Astrological chart made by a bonafide Vedic Astrologer to see whether or not there would be factual union of the prospective husband and wife. In this way divorce was prevented. So to guide my daughter I became familiar with Astrology. But is this pure bhakti yoga ? No… it is a bonafide science coming from God to deal with the material side of life. That is why such science is not taught in the temples of pure bhakti yoga. Srila Gurudeva did not teach us Astrology.
Surely we need astrologers, to tell us when to follow Ekadasi on the proper days, and to get our children married at the proper time. But we should know that this is only part of Varnashram and has to do with our material happiness.
The Satvatove practices are not directly coming from the Vedas and not even connected to any instructions given by Krsna. Satvatove is based on Landmark, an organization created by “man”, not “God”. The practices you undergo come from someone’s experimental work, and mental concoction . That is tricky because, man has four defects. Those defects are described by Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada as:…the ability to commit mistakes
..subject to illusion
..imperfect senses
..the cheating propensity
So by putting yourself in the hands of someone who has these four defects you are risking injury of some kind.
But if you put yourself in the hands of authoritative instructions coming directly from the Vedas, then you are in compliance with God’s laws. There is no bad side effect from following the bonafide words of God.
Some people have sued for emotional damages from the same methods used in the Satvatove practices. Should gurudeva’s sangha be sued if someone in the course of time, becomes ill from their practices? Their practices are man made, not God made.
Even though they may try to dovetail by putting some element of Krsna Consciousness in there, the basis of it is still man made and not God Inspired.
Ayurveda, Vastu, Astrology, are ancient sciences from the different branches of the Veda and the Lord Himself has made these sciences for the material benefit of mankind.
When we want the benefit of the soul…then that is when we desire to find a bonafide spiritual master of Pure Bhakti Yoga who begins to tell us……..we are not the mind….we are not the body……..but we are pure spirit soul and we have an eternal connection to God which can be revived by the chanting of the Holy Names of the Lord…Hare Krsna.. He tells us it is useless to try to be materially happy and make plans for that, because it is all temporary. He wants us to RENOUNCE ALL MATERIAL ENJOYMENT, give up our material comfort, accept austerity to please Krsna. That is difficult to do for some people.
But we are told by our Gurudeva that the healing, comforting, and problem solving Maha mantra is coming from God Himself to cure all our problems both material and spiritual, and this mantra is FREE.
So now you can choose to bring into your own life whatever practices you may wish. Time will tell what practices will give real benefit and what practices will give misery and pain.
We are the architects of our own destiny. By our own choices we mold our life. Do we want to please Guru and Krsna?….then we need to practice pure bhakti yoga.
Do we want material happiness,?….then we can worship the Demigods….Do we want to be cheated?…then we will go to someone who will cheat us. Putana tricked everyone in Vrndavan that she was actually a beautiful woman. She even fooled Mother Yashoda. So I am not telling anyone to do anything, because everyone must make their own choice in life……
As a householder, I have tried to make my life comfortable by using the Vedic Sciences and it has worked. I am very comfortable. But I know that this is not the ultimate goal of my life and at some point I must renounce my spirit of enjoyment and comfort if I really want to make this birth my last and go to the Spiritual World. Please bless me, that one day I can be a serious and renounced devotee……..
humbly
pracetana dasi
Radhe Radhe Pracetana didi,
I am speechless. I really do not understand why Gurudeva has given OK for Syamarani didi to attend the workshop. Basically everything offered there (as basic value to be in mood of Goodness or obtaining liberation, i personally perceive) is already covered by Gurudeva’s teaching. And Gurudeva teaches to go beyond the mood of Goodness/liberation to unknown depth. I heard my husband saying that Bhakti Yoga covers all Yogas and is the topmost yoga. He never participate a discussion as I did here. So I would not drag him into this also. So I just repeat what I heard from him.
On the other side, everthing what we do should be able to lead to pure bhakti without any compromising finally. What being less than that should not be satisfied.
Didi, I will definately follow up this subject and wait patiently for the answers to be revealed.
Radhe Radhe!
Humbly
Yamuana devi dasi
dandavats all
Jay Gurudev!!!
need some help of ‘ayurvedic’ devotees, please …
4 years ago i was diagnosticated with ‘artrose’ , disc hernie, reumatism in my back, now one friend who do ayurveda told me i should take garlic (but with out the ‘bad things’ its like a extract of garlic for this kind of body problem). I told him that we dont take any garlic but i dont know if for this desease i can take … any one knows what our acharyas say about that??? If we can take garlic with healthy purpose???
thanks very much ….
Jay Gurudev!!!
Hari bol, Baladeva, this is the third time i will try to post an answer here.
Srila Prabhupada has stated that onions and garlic are in the mode of ignorance, and have the side effect of making one lusty……………..
Srila Prabhupada sets the example himself of daily oil massage. A good oil for reumatism is a mixture of castor oil, and seseme oil…half in half.
Srila Prabhupada has stated that disease comes because of three things:
1. over eating,,,2. stress and anxiety…3. lack of cleanliness.
The chanting of ones japa, takes away all sinful reactions that are the root cause of our sufferings.
thanks very mcuh mata ji
thank u mta ji
yes, i told this passtime to doctor ahaha, i always remmeber that …. iam just asking because the pain do not stop … but i think u r right …. thanks…
Hari bol Yamuna did,
Your very heart felt statement of ” Our Gurudeva is the controler of all! May we be controlled by Him alone !”, is worthy of great admiration.
This is also my feeling !
Your Gurudeva’s words in Bhakti-ttva-viveka page 2 and 3 will give the great comfort, and guidance you are looking for. I have posted this quote on this site to humbly share with the devotees.
All glories to pure bhakti
Hari bol, All Glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga,
The main discussion going on here, between the long list of posts is whether or not the recently introduced Satvatove Paid Seminars are actually a bonafide teaching representative of Srila Gurudeva’s “Pure Bhakti”, association.
Some devotees feel this mix, of presenting the sacred Parikrama along side with Satvatove which is a business, separately based on Landmark ideals, which are controversial, where some devotees have experienced negative effects, is indeed very similar to the Karma Kanda section of the Vedas, and should not be mixed with PURE BHAKTI concepts.
We have repeatedly been told by Srila Gurudeva that PURE BHAKTI, can only be obtained under direct guidance of a self realised soul. Srila Gurudeva has himself stated, that Satvotave was not “PUREBHAKTI”.
For help with our problems, of getting along etc. it is actually an unnecessary added expense, because simply by the Divine Process of Hearing and Chanting of the Holy Name, and hearing the pastimes of the SrimadBhagavatam from the lips of a pure devotee,, this in and of itself has the power to cleanse the heart, thus solving all communication and relationship problems.
Srila Gurudeva himself said: ” I have already spoken of everything in my books”……….
So the solution to all of our problems are found in the Divinely inspired literature left by the Bonafide Spiritual Master. If the Guru’s works become the basis of a business, promoted by one who is not a self realized soul…..then?
We are warned by our Srila Prabhupada, that even pure milk, touched by the lips of a serpent can become poisenous. In society right now, people are taking advantage of the spiritual knowledge coming out of India and making it a personal privatised business.
Why did devotees leave Corporate Iskcon, to go hear personally from a “Self Realized Soul”, such as Srila Gurudeva, when he was on the planet? Iskcon also has a Bhagavadgita. The difference is “hearing that same Bhagavadgita from the lips of one who is free from envy, from exploitation, from the desire to make money. Srila Gurudeva himself said if you want money go to Iskcon.
Caution is always good advice, especially after the Spiritual Master cannot twist our ear anymore, if he sees we are even slightly deviating from the pure path. Satvatove is taking spiritual subject matter, and presenting it in the same mood as the Karma Kanda section of the Vedas. Srila Prabhupada has stated that this is for the “less intelligent class of men”.
In contrast to this, Tridandi Maharaja has been trained by Srila Gurudeva personally, and from his own level of absorbed transcendental knowledge he is helping others to take shelter of the Holy Name. The donations given to him personally for this helps him travel and continue preaching about the Glories of the Holy Name, which is in and of itself the only remedy for communication and relationship problems.
Thankyou for remaining open to discussion, as this was not possible in the corporate Iskcon, when devotees wanted to voice their opinions when the self appointed guru’s started falling down.
humbly
Pracetana dasi
Hare Krishna!
Please excuse me of not reading all postings here. I just saw a few times Japa Retreat mentioned by this chain of postings and would like to say something about this because I personally just had one japa retreat behind me in Holland under guidance of Tridandi Swami Maharaja.
This japa retreat has no commercial character. The fee of entry is just enough to cover the costs. Some of programs during Japa Retreat can be watched at http://www.youtube.com/user/MsYamuna.
I could say that this kind of Japa retreat is just like a mini festival (compared with festival Gurudeva used to hold in USA, Europe, etc), but it is more intimate, more personal attentions, less distraction due to small group of people.
This Japa retreat is for the devotees to get the taste of chanting and finally to run own sort of Japa Retreat at home after this japa retreat.
Unfortunately we do not have our own Centrum or Ashram to run a Japa Retreat like this; therefore we need to rent a place, which is not costless. But it is worthy to spend some money if your spiritual advancement can be made.
I say above in the context of Japa Retreat. I do recommend this one! And I also know that many who have joined once want to do it again the next year.
Radhe Radhe!
Your servant,
Yamuna devi dasi
Hare Bol! Thank you for the beautifully remindeder which came through last night from Pure Bhakti! Fear causes panic and hysteria. As a devotee I so appreciate all you are doing there to bring us together. Hope to see you there.dd
Who will guide us, to solve the recent controversy, over what programs are bonafide to be offered up at IPBYS ? Many devotees will want to go for parikrama, for Hari Katha, and to get the purification of the holy dust of the Dhama.
Side by side this Satvatove, based on Landmark principles is also being made available…….”for our purification?”
In the Bible Jesus made a visit to a temple, where he saw the stalls set up by the money lenders, and other commercial undertakings. He was furious ! He turned over the tables and said:..” You have made my Father’s house into a den of thieves”. Usually the peaceful Jesus, is always portrayed as gentle and humble, with doves and children surrounding him. But in this instance of deception, he was furious !
Maya is powerful, Putana was beautiful, Mother Yashoda was fooled by her deception. What may appear to our eyes to be beneficial may not also be so…..I hesitate when money marries purity.
Krsna is fulfilling everyones desires, and if we are not careful of desiring “purely”, our faith in things other than pure bhakti will become strong, and we may become misled.
I would like to see Madhava Maharaja, and Uma didi and Tirtha Maharaja, and even BB Bodhyana Maharaja attend these Satvatve classes ( Landmark), and then hear from them what they gained by it, and if they would recommend ourselves to follow their example.
I forgot to add that of course Madhava Maharaja, Uma didi , Tirtha Maharaja and BB Bodhyana Maharaja would of course be asked to pay $100 dollars ,,,is it,,,to attend the course?
Dandavats.
Srila Gurudeva disappeared from our external visions. Many people now have a chance to show own true shape.
And please, remember..Kali does not attack the common devotees so much. He attacks the persons who are “in charge” the leaders because they can contaminate all the movement traight on.
This is why SG did not want to create any institution by himself, just not to be blame in the future for any failure.
Haribol Vaisnava Bhakta prabhu, although I don’t think that is your real real name (which is fine with me)…., “Please forgive any offenses in asking.” I see no offense in you asking these valid questions, which to me is only the sign of real intelligence….
Anyways, it’s really Syamarani didi who is spearheading these initiatives and since we have devotees in the sanga that deliver different programs to a non-devotee audience and what we are seeing is that so many of these “programs” use Vedic principles, and we’re trying to show how so, and bring the original idea back to its true Vaisnava application. Taking only what is useful and not the useless parts….
Yrs,
Rpd
“what we are seeing is that so many of these “programs” use Vedic principles”
“Manage change
Respond proactively…
Execute strategy
Apply effective delegation skills…
Leveraging diversity”
Is it?
it sounds just like a power executive who is a paid consultant for billionaire corporations teaching skills to become aggressively effective in the corporate mayavadi business world.
Forgive my failure to grasp how Vedic principles apply or what this has to teach regarding effective preaching or communication of Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.
Dandavats,
It’s not my intention to only point out controversy, but let’s take a look at examples of how other religious organizations are presenting themselves through offered courses and workshops. Let’s look at the Buddhist community:
1. Healing Practices for Recovery, with Kevin Griffin
2.Buddhist Studies: The Six Realms, with Shastri Ethan Nichtern and David Nichtern
3. Intro to Insight Meditation
4. The Emergence of the Mahayana, with Scholar-in-Residence Rita M. Gross
5. The Menris Tradition of Tangka Art: Paintings by the New Generation in Exile
6. First International Conference on Other-Centered Approaches: New Directions in Buddhist Psychology
7. The Mysterious Way of the Heart: Where Wisdom and Compassion Meet
8. Precepts I: Introduction to the Buddhist Precepts, with Shugen Sensei
So we see they offer a wide range of courses very skillfully weaving psychology into the Buddhist tenets with Buddhism remaining the primary focus rather than Buddhism itself being an afterthought to a psychology course.
Secondly we see more thorough study and advanced course offerings by senior scholars and not just imitations of Dale Carnagie type programs. I know that we have extremely well-qualified seniors, and Srimati Syamarani didi herself being one who easily offers extremely high quality trainings. So I humbly put forth that workshops and seminars reflect this higher more focused level of siddhantic development for the sangha.
If communications and relationship workshops are helpful, I could see one or two courses being offered with any controversial nature being up front for the consumer to decide to assume all risk and liability. Instead it seems like every single course is psychology or business and affiliated with the Satvatove institute. This makes it seem like IPBYS has become a front for Satvatove-style course offerings and not a true Pure Bhakti sangha at all.
Like Apple giving an exclusivity contract to AT&T. If we saw more than one controversial institute being given exclusivity in trainings offered, if we saw the expertise of the general devotee community and our own sannyasis being utilized to make thier own classes and worlkshops without exclusive dependence on one corporation and coaches with links to seriously sinister groups like Landmark known for corporate takeovers, it would lessen the impression of a corporate takeover of Srila Gurudeva’s society by anything like Satvatove Institute or privately funded corporate interests unknown to us.
Also the controversial aspects of Psychotherapy intensives are being completely overlooked. This is an area which could have serious legal repercussions to Srila Gurudeva’s mission without proper oversight. Even Landmark forum has a disclaimer and hold harmless that participants are required to sign which acknowledges negative psychological outcomes in otherwise healthy individuals sometimes occur.
Thirdly, even among Buddhist schools price for some of these courses varies widely from inexpensive and accessible to notoriously “gouging the consumer.”
So my respectful recommendation to the sangha is our workshops and seminars and retreats be more focused on actual in-depth, quality Siddhantic education and less dependancy on psychotherapeutic and business paradigms. In this way IPBYS can better represent the actual mission of our Acharyas.
Also recommend that courses be divided in cost or made available to the sangha and general public on a sliding scale basis. After all, spiritual training should simply cover basic costs and not become a business in the name of spirituality.
————————–
“A person who establishes a temple or matha to take advantage of people’s sentiments by using for his livelihood what people contribute for the worship of the Deity cannot be called a gosvami or acarya. One who knows the conclusion of the sastras, follows in the footsteps of his predecessors and endeavors to preach the bhakti cult all over the world is to be considered an acarya.
The role of an acarya is not to earn his livelihood through the income of the temple. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura used to say that if one earns his livelihood by displaying the Deity in the temple, he is not an acarya or gosvami. It would be better for him to accept service even as a sweeper in the street, for that is a more honorable means of earning one’s living.”
(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antyalila 3.223, purport)
Dandavats prabhu.
I and the other devotees with whom i associate with regurarly,would like to see workshops where there can be help in developing good sadhana,more on how to avoid aparadha`s which will lead to chanting suddha nama,dealing with reversals in spiritual life-most devotees due to the pressure of everyday life slacken in their personal sadhana,workshops to be conducted by senior Vaishnava`s and Vaishnavi`s on how to overcome these obstacles.Also regarding studying of scriptures,so many books Srila Gurudeva translated and commented on as well as Srila Prabhupada,how to better understand what is being written in these books.Srila Gurudeva and Srila Prabhupada said that everything is in my books and also in the Holy Names.
Also those that are expereinced in organising preaching activities should be there at these workshops.These are the problems we are faced with on the ground and we should concentrate on these things which will please Srila Gurudeva.
Haribol Acyuta dasa
The more self sufficient we become in our spiritual life, the more we can solve whatever problems we may have to face due to past karma, and sinful activities.
When we become too dependent on “another”, or other “groups”, it is considered a negative thing according to Sastra. ” to be to dependent on others causes misery”,,,according to Bhagavadgita.
God helps those who ” help themselves”.
Self motivation, inner strength, and the individual desire to do what is required for one’s spiritual advancement, comes from within a person’s own heart.
I don’t agree with the idea of paying money for workshops, or seminars where one begins to feel dependent on them for one’s spiritual advancement.
Alcholics Anonymous are organized workshops for people who are weak and helpless, because of addictions they themselves cannot conquer over.
As devotees we have already been given the books, the importance of remembering Krsna, morning and evening. We have been given initiation, we have given our japa beads, and the knowledge of how to perform Bhakti Yoga. Just by doing it, we become strong. When a person is overweight, and wants to lose weight, he makes a determined effort to watch his diet, go to the gym, walk, exersize, and stop overeating. Then if he follows this routine, he automatically will lose the weight. But he has to this ” HIMSELF”.
The process given to us by our spiritual master is one of : “SELF REALIZATION”.
Each of us as individuals, must practice ourself to get the desired result. If we want it bad enough we will do it. We will get up early , without anyone forcing us to. We will put our hand in our japa bag and chant our rounds without anyone looking over shoulder. We will pick up the Bhagavadgita and turn the pages with our own hand, and with our own eyes we will read the words on the page.
This is what any individual person can do, and it will benefit that individual. Self discipline is the only necessary requirement to become Krsna Conscious. Krsna gives us Guru,,,,but then Guru gives us Krsna….meaning Guru will motivate you to ………”DO THE WORK OF SELF REALIZATION YOURSELF”.
No one can chant your rounds for you. You have to do it YOURSELF. No one can read the Bhagavatam for you,,,you have to do it yourself.
WE, ourselves have the responsibility to hear, chant, remember, pray, read, etc. …there are so many processes of devotional service we can do. We don’t have to wait to be told to do them everyday. Guru has already told us “Once”, don’t be weak.
So lets not be weak and just , call upon the Lord to give us the strength of self discipline and do the needful.
Otherwise we will always be weak and dependent on others, and we will feel depressed. Devotional service is joyfully performed if WE APPLY OURSELVES TO THE PROCESS.
No one can do it for us, we have to do it ourselves.
Prabhu ji, please visit http://www.japaretreats.com and speak with Tridandi Mj. He is doing many wonderful Japa Retreats and it is having a great impact on the devotees. He just stayed with me and my wife, and we also attended the retreat with him in Holland. Simply wonderful, free from distractions, only chanting (no chatting), and Krishna-katha, as well as seva and sharing of personal realizations, etc.
Be well and dandavat pranams,
Yrs
Raghava
I’d be happy to speak with you: rob.elings@gmail.com
Thanks prabhu, this is very helpful and I am certainly taking your advice on board to do a better job at avoiding the perception that we are a front for Satvatove etc. We are not and we don’t aspire for it either.
Nobody on our team intends to make a living out of the Bhagavat, neither is bhaktistore.com and/or bhaktiart.net. We’re only asking to cover the cost of renting facilities and prasadam. Just as the parikrama organizers are asking for the same. To think that they would be in it to make a buck is a mistake in my limited view.
Yrs
Raghava
“To think that they would be in it to make a buck is a mistake in my limited view.”
We have been discussing a private corporation like Satvatove Institute and what effect and impression it could have on Vaishnava siddhanta. Since it is first and foremost a ‘business” venture, and propagating itself by offering of seminars and workshops, and we can clearly see the business model it’s based on. This is the nature of the objection. Obviously, with professional corporate consultants and business success strategies, the obvious intention of “buck-making” can’t really be ignored.
Some of the Satvatove workshops cost a thousand dollars or more. One of the ways the Landmark and Amway business “paradigm” is so successful is it has progressive course offerings starting from introductory low cost, to frank consumer gouging, as has previously been mentioned.
Did you find out why the main Harmony series and communications workshops for IPBYS are based on the Satvatove Institute Prabhu? First you said it was not at all, and now you simply say that they are “offering something else.”
But it really isn’t the heart of the question.
Thanks prabhu, i can’t speak for those other programs, and we are working on removing the clear association with them. it was an honest and innocent mistake, although fact remian that Ananta prabhu did receive training from Dhira Govinda, and is working hard to translate some of the concept into a Vaisnava context… with full support (and encouragement) from senior devotees incl Syamarani didi and Brajanath prabhu.
Yrs
Raghava
“although fact remian that Ananta prabhu did receive training from Dhira Govinda, and is working hard to translate some of the concept into a Vaisnava context…”
——————
Then you can’t honestly remove the clear association with them. Because admittedly he is a trainer with them, and he has modeled these courses on their trademarked paradigm. Although, it is entirely possible that Dhira Govinda could give his permission to let IPBYS use this work without endorsement or acknowledgment of Satvatove, but that still would amount to a kind of concealment.
“with full support (and encouragement) from senior devotees incl Syamarani didi and Brajanath prabhu.”
———
Prabhu Raghava again the question has to be asked, is IPBYS to become just a front for Satvatove style programs with either implicit or explicit endorsement of Satvatove Institute?
Because that’s what makes it seem as if IPBYS is a “front” for that company. Do you see how that kind of public endorsement alone simply “sells” their product? Prabhu why not speak to me privately via email or facebook?
Also, more siddhantic workshops and retreat are offered by http://www.japaretreats.com, with considerable success.
Yrs
Raghava
Dandavats Raghava
I would like to see our sannyasis travelling and preaching not hidding on the farms or in India (accept festivals).
Here in UK…if not Gurudeva and BV Bon Mah festivals I would probably fall into maya, He was keeping me strong inspite all impediments ( no devotee association )
Please, why ISCKON can organise so many festivals here (so far probably 10 sannyasis visited ISCKON temples here)within 8 month but IPBYS almost none?
My house is open to all of them, they can stay here, rest and give Hari Katha,
or maybe go to ISCKON temple?, many, many devotees have same dilema…
Please Prabhu, try to understand that most of devotees live in town and cities and need much bigger support than devotess who are already living amongs vaisnavas.
My daughter..she hardly seen devotess or sannyasis, my wife just got iniciation from Srila gurudeva went few days ago for Vyasapuja program, I did not want to go, she wanted and she decided not to go anymore. What is the sense?
- 1.5 hour go go through the traffic
-temple, no facilities what so ever to bring kids with you, 9 30pm my daughther could not tolerate, no prasadam, no space to seat, no oxigen …we had to leave even before arati and puspanjali. Impossible .
Every normal person who have a house or flat will invite such a amount of people whom he will able to accomodate, otherwise wil rent a hall, not invite all country, karmis, hindus, siks devotess to seat in tiny, small room!!!
Why there is always problem with common sense in devotees movement?
How can I explain to my new iniciated wife? What she supposed to do to get sanga from IPBYS?
Your servat
Murli UK
ddvats murali prabhu… agree with u .. i went one time to london and saw personally that our sanga there have no sanyassis association…. here also we have no one who look after us, some time sanyassis come for 3 or 4 days, but after that, they go away and dont talk with people more, new people have no suport for sadhana, i think its our main problem, i think sanyassis should not only go for 3 days to preach but to mantain contact after that is very important … other wise new people will feel, “Oh iam alone in this sanga” so when they ask me i say, “Yes, we should learn to do our sadhana alone with full faith, other wise we will stop to practice.”
Jay Gurudev!!!
Haribol Raghava prabhu,
It’s wonderful to see so many exchanges, here to come to the point of “Truth”.
I am remembering how “Putana witch”, came to Vrndavana in her very beautiful, and attractive disguise. Everyone welcomed her because of her external pleasing appearance. She fooled everyone into thinking, she was actually going to nourish Krsna with her breast milk. Everyone accepted her, even Mother Yasodha.
But her motive was to poisen Krsna. Such deception is present in this world, and in our day to day living. We can be safe in making proper choices, if we ask ourselves the following questions:
If what a great man does, others follow, and the example he sets by exemplary acts all the world pursues…then
- is Damodhara Maharaja going to attend the Landmark classes ( now disguised as Satvatove training classes)
- is Madhava Maharaja going to attend the Landmark classes
- is Uma didi going to attend the Landmark classes
- is Tirtha Maharaja going to attend the Landmark classes
- would someone like Bhakti Bhodhyana Maharaja whom I consider a pure devotee, attend such classes?
Would there be a way to hear from them, what they experienced in these classes, if they went, and how they found it helpful in their personal Krsna Conciousness? Would they recommend we also attend, what would they promise we would receive from such “Landmark” classes. What would be the benefits we would receive by attending?
Maya is very expert, more expert than any of us, because she is a servant of the Supreme Lord, who does her service of keeping us away from Krsna very well. She covers truth, she throws her veil of illusion over the eyes, she fills our ears with sounds other than the Holy Name and sweet bhajans, and pastimes of Krsna. Yet her form is so attractive, that if we are not careful, we may take shelter of the seemingly positive, and beneficial gifts she is presenting. Imagine if Mother Yashoda , was fooled, we could also be fooled.
This example of Putana pulling the wool over the eyes of Mother Yashoda, was arranged by Krsna of course to:
……..show all us conditioned souls…..to beware the attractive deceptions in this world, that seem of benefit to us………….
I remember
Haribol,
I would like to ask a sincere question of the sangha please:
Is it true that all our sannyasis are undergoing Satvatove workshop training? And is it also true that this is being made mandatory for any preaching effort? Thank you.
Thanks for writing, and submitting your question.
The answer is absolutely NO and most sannyasis are even very hesitant to attend any workshops. As a matter of fact, our sanga does not at all engage in the Satvatove workshops. I been reading the thread on “Paradigm Shift” and got the feeling that the essence of the article has been misunderstood. It is not at all an endorsement for Satvatove or Landmark programs for that matter. Syamarani didi was only saying that at she had a change of heart in how she viewed those kind of programs.
Here is a video we made, where she speaks about the need for Harmony within the Vaisnava community, and how Srila Gurudeva had indicated that we should organize classes on how to have proper relationships and communications. The materials were presented in a book called “Harmony, A Preview”.
Here’s the video:
Your aspiring servant,
Raghava Pandit das
“As a matter of fact, our sanga does not at all engage in the Satvatove workshops.”
Really?
Can you tell me then Prabhu why the Harmony workshops being offered include “Transformative Communication with Ananta, based on the proven methods by David Wolff – Ph.D., L.C.S.W. (Dhira Govinda das), founder of the Satvatove Institute.
And “7 Habits Program Course For Devotees by Braja Mohan who is a “Senior Level Business Advisor, Facilitator & Master Trainer, Performance Coach..” Clearly another variant of corporate administrative business psychology.
Also the sangha is offering: “7 Principles for Fulfilling Relationships” Stating, “Satvatove Institute offers a variety of courses and workshops designed to enhance relationships, facilitate personal growth, and produce rewarding results in your life.” Right on the Bhakti Culture Harmony series workshops.
So Prabhu, are you saying that the Satvatove model and paradigm are not being used by IPBYS? Are you saying that Satvatove instructors and facillitators and coaches are not being used?
And thank you for communicating that “not” all the sannyasis have attended these workshops based on Satvatove framework and communication skills nor are they required to.
“It is not at all an endorsement for Satvatove or Landmark programs for that matter.”
Landmark Forum is the foundational basis of the Satvatove workshops, and Satvatove is apparently the underlying framework for the IPBYS Harmony workshops. thank you for sharing the video of Srimati Syamarani Didi who we already know has attended the Satvatove training.
One other question Prabhu, are the facillitators, coaches and trainers of the Harmony series workshops graduates and associates of Satvatove courses and/or currently Satvatove facillitators? Thank you.
“Six or seven years ago some devotees arranged for Ananta prabhu’s Satvatove teacher, Dhira Govinda prabhu, to hold a Satvatove workshop…I went, and I am so happy I did. The workshop gave me so many good communication tools, for hearing from others and helping others, and it also gave me so many paradigm shifts.” -Srimati Syamarani Dasi
“It is not at all an endorsement for Satvatove or Landmark programs for that matter.”
That sure sounds like an endoresement prabhu.
Thanks for pointing these out Prabhu. You certainly have a keen eye for detail.
I will discuss with the persons involved and see how we can present the ideas (based on Srila Gurudeva’s desire to hold classes on devotee association and relationships) in a way that doesn’t create the idea that we are basing our program on Satvatove or Landmark programs solely. Srila Gurudeva’s desire is REALLY what is at the heart of this…., nothing else is more important or prominent. The vehicle we use may vary based on how they help in meeting the core objective to “organize classes on how to have proper relationships and communications”. Some purists may argue that we shouldn’t even use airplanes since they are operated by non-devotee demonic meat-eating “karmis”.
If you like you may correspond with Srimati Syamarani didi directly to address your valid concerns.
Thanks, Rpd
I hardly doubt that Gestalt psychotherapy and hypnotic induction techniques or subliminal messages and Neurolinguistic programming utilized by “powerbrokers and businessmen” to create paradigms of material wealth and success which are concepts introduced into someone’s mind by karmi psychologists is hardly the same as a “purist” objecting to airplane transportation.
“and see how we can present the ideas (based on Srila Gurudeva’s desire to hold classes on devotee association and relationships) in a way that doesn’t create the idea that we are basing our program on Satvatove or Landmark programs solely.”
Why are you basing these programs, in Srila Gurudeva’s name and mission, on controversial mayavadi Satvatove and Landmark programs at all?
It’s irrelevant whether the sangha can avoid “creating the idea” that we base these workshops on their trademarked language technologies if we actually “are” isn’t it? That would be misleading in the extreme, and so I advocate for transparency in advertising and marketing of these workshops regardless of objection.
“That would be misleading in the extreme, and so I advocate for transparency in advertising and marketing of these workshops regardless of objection.”
Agree, would you like to help achieve this..?
” we can present the ideas (based on Srila Gurudeva’s desire…”
———————
The objection is whether Srila Gurudeva endorsed Satvatove or not as a paradigm of International Pure Bhakti sangha. Especially when He said it was NOT bhakti. So are these workshops going to take the place of what Srila Gurudeva’s society presents as bhakti to the public, and at a cost and thereby subvert our Siddhanta?
Because already on these forums we’ve seen misleading communications claiming “this is what our great Gurus want.” And such communications create the impression of unimpeachable Guru instruction rather than individual “choice.” It would be a pity if controversial psychology technologies were misconstrued to the sangha as direct Guru instruction when Gurudeva may have intended quite another thing. So caution and clarity is advised.
For one thing “communication skills and harmonious relationships training “do not” equal Satvatove trademarked technologies. And another issue is whether the communication skills and harmonious relationship training should be obtained from the aggressive and deceptive mayavadi business world which manipulates emotional and psychological vulnerabilities to embed communications strategies. We should evaluate what effect this will have on Srila Prabhupada’s and Srila Gurudeva’s Krishna Consciousness mission.
Please forgive any offenses in asking.
“Agree, would you like to help achieve this..?”
I have no inclination to invest myself in business strategies or volunteer for assisting with advertising and marketing of workshops I object to Prabhu, thanks for asking.
At this juncture am inclined to say such are a deviation of our Krishna Consciousness mission, especially when we put a price tag for the public and try to compete with Oprah Winfrey in the self-help humanistic psychology business world, instead of spreading Krishna Consciousness and Vaishnava Siddhanta (for free) in the way our great Acharyas have prescribed.
“I am not about money” our Srila Gurudeva said. Neither should we be. Also, the sangha should know in whose pocket the fees for the workshops go, and towards what aspect of the IPBYS development it is dedicated to and whether or not royalties are required for use of trademarked technologies from corporations like Satvatove.
Listening attentively to Syamarani’s video talk here, I can see she herself is convinced of the benefit of Satvatove (Landmark ) based paid courses that are available for devotees who choose to attend the upcoming Parikrama.
Personally for myself, if Krsna is not the center for such discussions, I find no value in them. When Hanuman was presented with a very valuable, attractive, necklace of gems and gold by Sita Devi, as a reward for his total dedication to Lord Sri Rama, in the assembly, Hanuman began to break into the necklace with his teeth as if looking for something. Hanuman stood in front of Sita , Rama, and continued with this strange behavior which eventually broke the necklace to bits.
When asked by Lord Rama and Sita about his rude behavior, he answered:…” I have tried to find My beloved Lord Rama, in this gift and I cannot see Him.”
Then of course the famous event happened that Hanuman showed everyone that Lord Rama and Sita was in his own heart, and that was more valuable to him, than the external gift of material value.
My doubts, about any program, that costs a substantial amount of money, and that may not have any direct connection to “Krsna”, His name, or Pastimes, or seeing how He is present in the situation….does not appeal to me.
A suggestion I humbly present is that in our literatures, there are many pastimes of devotee exchanges, that have been given to us by the Supreme Lord as examples to learn from. Behavior patterns of the exhaulted devotees such as Ambarisha Maharaja, Prthu Maharaja, and the behavior of countless others in the pages of the SrimadBhagavatam and Caitanya Charitamrta are full of practical lessons on proper behavior. Not only do we get the practical lesson, but the immense spiritual benefit and purification, and benediction given to us by the Lord Himself, when we read these pastimes together.
For example:…reading the entire pastime of the Praceta’s meeting Lord Shiva, ” The Song Sung by Lord Shiva”, from the Bhagavatam has a benediction at the end of the chapter, that : ” anyone who reads this pastime, and remembers ME (Krsna), morning and evening will get along with friendly dealings with all living entities.
Personally, I would rather spend hours reading such transcendental pastimes together with a group of devotees, to get the assured benediction from the Lord Himself, who guarantees it. There are many such pastimes in the Bhagavatam, that when recited have wonderful purifiying and healing benedictions given by the Lord Himself at the end of each chapter.
To me, this draws my heart, more than a mechanical system of exersizes to impose a change on one’s heart and character from an intellectual plateform.
The change of heart to accomplish lasting harmony can only come from the grace of God Himself as He presents Himself for our benefit in the pages of His literary incarnation,,,,The SrimadBhagavatam,,,,the light of the age,,,,to take away all the dark negative behaviors we have accumulated over lifetimes.
This is what I honestly feel, and I am presenting or opening my heart felt feelings to this assembly free from fear.
Thankyou for allowing me the opportunity to express myself.
humbly
Pracetana dasi
Dandavats to all the Vaishnava`s and Vaishnavi`s
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
These are all certainly nice discussions that are taking place in terms of structure,who wil be leading the sanga etc…,my concern is this after Srila Gurudeva has left i asked many senior Vaishnava`s in our sanga who can we go to take siksha and some replied all the sanyassis and senior devotees,some replied certain senior devotees,some said it will be reveiled in the heart and if you are sincere then Sri Guru will direct you to the right person.
Now Srila Gurudeva always said that be always in high class Vaishnava association over and above society consciousness.This question is on the minds of most of the devotees that i speak to.Some are saying we may need to go out of this sanga to take siksha.My concern is that whilst we are trying to organise the preaching on the ground we need to direct the new devotees that will be coming or already has come to Krsna Consciousness to take initiation from a High class Vaishnava.
To whom do we direct these new devotees,will these matters be decided by vote at Navadvipa?If so then what is wrong with Iskcon`s present system and will we end up as them where all sanyassis will initiate and if a person has developed faith in a particular sanyassi then that is the qualification to take initiation.Basically my question is and also most of the devotees in South Africa is who is that High class Vaishnava or Vaishnava`s or Vaishnavi`s that we need to take siksha from and direct the new devotees to.We need to be clear on this or there will be chaos.
I`m sure our senior Vaishnava`s can direct us in this path.
Aspiring for the service to Sri Sri Guru and High class Vaishnava`s
Acyuta dasa(South Africa)
Haribol Acyuta das
I also would be interested in knowing the answer to your question.
I believe the sangha is compiling some information to answer the questions of the devotees.
I read something in the SrimadBhagavatam, that you might find interesting: S.B. C3 Ch4 T30..” Krsna is speaking:
“Now I shall leave the vision of this mundane world, and I see that Uddhava, the foremost of My devotees, is the only one who can be directly entrusted with knowledge about Me.” T.31 ” Uddhava is not inferior to Me in any way because he is never affected by the modes of material nature. Therefore he may remain in this world in order to disseminate specific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead.” Purport:..” As the Lord is not affected by the modes of material nature, so a pure devotee of the Lord is also not affected by the modes of nature.”
Let’s hope we find that kind of High Class of association.
Dandavat pranam. I wonder why those disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are not calling him Srila Prabhupada anymore. They called him like this for 35 or 40 years, why stop doing this and avoid writing his complete name as they did all these years? Maybe Syamarani didi can answer this question? This is not a challenging question, it just make me fell sad to see that in our sanga many devotees who used to call His Divine Grace, Prabhupada are not doing it anymore. We should not forget that was him who came in 1965 to save us from hell bringing Radha Krishna to our lives. Thanks. Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!
Haribol Jay Hari Das,
Your post caught my attention, so I would like to say that as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada myself, and a siksha disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja, my devotional feeling is to address Srila Prabhupada, as …” Srila Prabhupada”
That is how I was nurtured, and developed in my love for him. It is how I personally reciprocate with him, unless I am familiar and just call him Prabhupada. If I have time to type out his long formal address as A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I also address him thus.
Others will address him according to their own relationship with him. Members of Gaudiya Math address him as Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. That is there relationship with him. No offence is meant.
I understand that when Srila Prabhupada is addressed as Swami Maharaja, it is because of the particular relationship one has with him. So I don’t take offence.
Krsna has many names and titles according to his devotees, moods and relationship with Him, so does the Spiritual Master. Srila Prabhupada’s initiating sannyasa title is formally:……A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
Disciples of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, such as myself affectionately call him Prabhupada, or Srila Prabhupada.
Mother Yasoda called Krsna…”Kana”,, out of affection.
Dandavats, nice discussion. One note: Srila Prabhupada added the AC, it was not part of his sannyasa name he received…
who can understand the dealings of the pure devotee….
Yrs
Raghava
Dandavats to all
Please can somebody answer my questions and forgive me for my ignorance in not knowing these things.
Will the decisions of our society be made through voting?
Who is eligable to vote?
What are their names and positions within the governing framework?
Where can I find a copy of the manifesto that lays out the structure of our society?
Where can I find information about exactly how many bank accounts gurudeva has and how much money is in them and who is in control of them?
Where can I find information about what property gurudeva owns and who is in charge of it?
Where can I find a compilation of all the instructions that gurudeva has given in regards to our society?
Sorry for being completely ignorant about all this but I thought that gurudeva would be on this world for anouther 10 years and so I never saw the need to find out.
hare krsna
Hari bol, Subal Sakha
Being only a mother, and in family life, I can only speak from personal experience, and to share that running a family, is similar to running a society, or kingdom. There is a saying that: ” that the hand, that rocks the cradle, is the hand that rules the world.”,,,meaning that how we have been nurtured by our mother in our youth, or by our Gurudeva during his lifetime, will form the hand of our future rule or destiny in life.
In a family, the head is the father figure and he has the final say in all decisions regarding the family. The mother and children can give suggestions, but ultimately it is the Dharma of the Father to have the last word. If this is followed the family runs smoothly due to the respect and trust of the mother and the children towards the father.
In a sangha the same principal follows. The Guru is the head of the society of devotees. His word is trusted and followed. These are dealings based on love and trust, not on a governmental system of voting. If you “naturally love and trust someone”, you will naturally have faith to follow the advice and direction they give.
If our society is based on “Love and Trust”, this simple and pure faith, will save us from bureaucracy and the materialist entanglement of a similar governmental system, in which argument, mistrust, and endless democratic debate, makes it impossible to come to any final conclusion.
It would be to our credit, to find out what happened after Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, left this world, and how things were organized then. What happened, and how did Srila Narayana Maharaja, and his beloved two Godbrothers manage after the physical disappearance of Bhakti Prajana Kesava Maharaja? These facts can bring us some clue, and direction of what to do after a spiritual master leaves this world.
As in a family, or Royal lineage, not all members of the family are privy to financial documents, only those who are responsible for paying the bills. All other members of the family ” Trust”, that the bills are being paid, and thus have “Faith”, that the funds are properly handled.
Mistrust leads to unneccesary, investigation, and red tape and wastes time, bringing uncomfortable feelings to the surface in our relationships.
As a society of devotees, the persons chosen by the Guru to handle financial responsibilities etc. should be trusted. It is not for everyone to meddle in the affairs as this will cause confusion. If my son starts telling my husband how to handle the finances of the family, it will create quarrel. If the husband or father asks advice from the son, seeing he is matured and could benefit from his wisdom, then the father will seek advice from the son.
And this will not create disturbance in the family.
In a Sangha, it is our duty to trust the management established by Guru. If we humbly approach with our suggestions, it is the duty of the management to hear the concerns, but it is in their hands to make any final decision. And we as the extended “family members”, of the Sangha have it as our duty to respect and trust this final decision.
If for any reason there may be problems in the future, then of course, they need to be addressed. Lord Ramachandra held open court, to hear any complaints in his Kingdom, and then he acted to satisfy his citizens. But if low class washer men come with faulty complaints, such as the washer man who decried Sita in the public assembly, then it is up to the King to decide what is proper and what is improper.
For me, all this future management will unfold naturally, if we “Trust”, in the Lord. If we trust that the hearts of those who will be in a position of authority will be worthy. If those who are willing to take the position of authority, have looked deep within their own hearts to see if they “Qualify”, for the position.
Honesty and truthfulness is something that everyone has to confront in their own heart of hearts. Governmental like democratic voting can’t do that. People are elected to Gov’t. posts on popular vote,,,,but what is the condition of their “Heart”…..that cannot be seen by anyone. The heart is an internal situation, that cannot be seen. So how do you know the condition of someone’s heart?
In Bhagavadgita a self realized soul is described, because Arjuna, who was in a confused state at the time, asked Krsna, ” How do I recognize such a person,,,how does he sit, how does he walk…etc.
If we don’t want to be cheated, we ourselves have to “Read”, and understand what the qualifications of a leader are, what are the qualifications of a genuine spiritual master. We judge a thing according to it’s fruit or result. Blind following will not do here. I followed blindly in Iskcon for many years, and was crushed by the suffering it caused me. We can avoid this by “personally becoming knowledgeable”, of the qualifications of a pure soul, and then follow him, with love and trust.
If we find ourselves disappointed by following a leader, who becomes fallen, we can only blame ourselves for not knowing how to recognize one.
Shastra illuminates the truth, and it seems it is very important that we not remain ignorant of truth, otherwise we will get cheated.
Srila Gurudeva’s Spiritual Family:
Whenever I received a letter from Srila Gurudeva, he would address it as follows:..” To my dear darling daughter”.
In the Badger Festivals Srila Gurudeva would refer to the assembled devotees, as his dear daughters and sons.
We have received a great fortune, to be included into Srila Gurudeva’s transcendental family. He has introduced us to his Vrndavana Family, as he would say: ” come with me now to the banks of the Yamuna, where the water is sweetly flowing, where the bumblebees are buzzing, and where sweet smelling flowers carry their aroma.”
Srila Gurudeva’s mission was to make us qualified for this Transcendental Family life in the Village of Vrndavan. He message was to understand the goal of our previous acharaya’s, which was service to the Divine Loving Mood and exchange of Sri Sri Radha Govinda. It was aimed at all those who had greed to attain it. As disciples, no matter we are Sannyasi, Vanaprastha, Grhastha,or Brahmacari we relish the opportunity to share with one another the delightful philosophy and pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We enlighten one another by conversing about such topics, and sharing our hearts in confidence. Krsna says He is present, when a few are gathered in His Name, discussing and giving rapt attention to topics about Him. We bring interested people to those in whom we ourselves have developed love and trust, to also hear inspirational words of wisdom, and glorious pastimes of the Lord.
We recognize and trust those who have served Sri Guru, with the qualifications mentioned in the sastra’s. We trust in the Supersoul to guide us towards those who practically exhibit the transcendental qualities described in Sastra, and show by their behavior in their daily life, that they are exemplary.
We, stay safe by following Srila Bhaktisiddanta’s advice : ” when the faults in others misguide you, introspect, find fault with yourself, no one can harm you, unless you harm yourself.” We educate ourselves by scriptural study, to understand why taking a humble and submissive attitude is beneficial for our spiritual advancement.
We develop faith in our Godbrothers and Godsisters, that , in which ever service they may be situated, they will try to the utmost of their ability to act responsibly and do the best they can.
If we perceive any error, we humbly approach in a caring mood to try to understand and settle any disagreement, if it lies in the field of our activity to do so.
We trust in Srila Gurudeva’s judgement, with those he himself chose to carry out any responsible post, be it financial or otherwise.
We use our discrimination, to associate with those who also deal with us in a mood of affection and respect. If we do not get along with someone, we practically apply Srila Gurudeva’s advice and make our pranams from a respectable distance.
We are all Gurudeva’s children, his sons and daughters, part of his transcendental family. There are many advanced Uncles, Aunts, Cousins etc. By inquiring:
” what insignificant service may I render?”, provides us with the key to enter into this Divine Realm of Bhakti Seva.
In this Divine Society, under the control of the Supreme Lord, may we all aspire to work conjointly, with those who are similarly inclined. May everyone according to their particular talent, and qualities render humble service for the good of the greater collective. In this way we remain united, in a humble serving attitude. For those who constantly disagree, and find fault, and who are not capable of giving proper respect, we wish them well, in any sangha of their choice.
All glories to our Spiritual Father, and Spiritual Family, all glories to his loving sons and daughters.
I think it is fair to ask, “what is the mission?” “What is the message?” “Who is it aimed at?” “Is this just about traveling sannyasis who preach to Gurudeva’s disciples? Do we the disciples ever preach? To whom do we bring interested people? Who are our leaders? Who are the senior leaders? We are asking, some are saying, but as yet, nothing is concrete. So we keep asking. Why are we always told to be quiet, or accused of disrespect or lack of trust, etc? What exactly is the nature of this society to which we belong? Even these basic things are a mystery. We need a mission statement.
Do we have a format, an approach, to whom do we trust with our donations? Yes, we need a basic and transparent structure, this are critical things. This isn’t a family, and we aren’t “children.” This is a spiritual society and there has to be a welcome degree of input and communication and mutual respect, besides so humble we never look up or dare participate in any meaningful dialog.
What is needed now are ground-level practicalities. You cannot compare a society of Vaishnava brahmanas with the Varnashrama, because we should all equally be striving to be brahmanas and nobody is playing the role of warrior-King. And since this society is not Gaudiya Samiti, it has to be something else. What? If it will have board meetings, then we are consider worthy of participation. No one on these threads has asked to run things. All that’s being asked is information on structure, role, and goal, and our place in this new society, besides spectators unwelcome to voice our concerns. Where we have a disagreement of understanding, if we can’t communicate it and get proper Vaishnava clarification based on Gurudeva’s instructions, Shastric authority, and wise interpretation by the senior Vaishnavas as to what it means and why? But where people disagree and are prohibited from dialogue, then that is a closed society and we are not a welcome part of it, only to “like it or lump it.” And I have been told many times how free I am to leave. Should our public preaching also sound like this? Would that benefit anyone? We need a more inclusive and welcoming approach that doesn’t cringe from basic, ordinary questions.
I personally totally support Tirtha Maharajs proposal to make Sripad Premananda Prabhu the chairman. Prabhuji and Tirtha maharaj have been with gurudeva longer than anybody else and they understand both the western and Indian side of the congregation. They have an unbreakable friendship and if they are allowed to lead then they will protect our sanga.
It seems to me that many devotees today are in favour of some kind of democratic sanga with no leadership but i personally feel this is unrealistic and naive. All democratic nations and corporations have strong leaders at their head who define the nature of that organisation. We must seriously address the fundamentally important question of our will lead our sanga and stop talking about comunication therapy and love and other abstract concepts.
This is a practical political issue.
We need a strong leader and Prabhuji is strong.
I do not believe that a westerner could do it because the heart of the sanga is in india and i do not believe that the indians will respect a westerner.
Of the indians Tirtha Maharaj, Prabhuji and Madhava maharaj are prominent and capable of ruling the sanga in a fair way.
I would be happy with any of them as the leader but Tirtha Maharaj has made his move by proposing Prabhuji and so I think we should follow his suggestion.
In anycase, can we please stop talking about abstract concepts like development and comunication and fairness and get down to the main subject of selecting our leader in whatever way we are going to do it.
Dandavats to all
Dandavats prabhu ji,
The bhakti sanga development posts by Nemi Maharaja have been going on for many months, and are aimed primarily at helping create local communities based on Srila Gurudeva’s instructions, translated locally. Not at the current need for leadership, which I agree will need (a) strong and fixed, spiritually evolved person(s).
Pranams,
Yas
Raghava
Haribol Subal Sakha
After reading your above post, I also felt the truth of what you are saying. The most experienced personalities, with spiritual wisdom and Guru’s grace must naturally be gifted with inspiration to continue to manage and lead Srila Gurudeva’s sangha.
Those who were closest to Srila Gurudeva, have gained enough experience to know how to continue his mission. Especially in India, Tirtha Maharaj, Prabhuji and Madhava Maharaj, as you say are the natural leaders of the sangha. Also Brajanatha prabhu, is very experienced and a bridge between the western and Indian born devotees.
For temples, centers, and sangha to develop in other countries, that will happen naturally by those sannyasis who feel inspired to preach in different places around the world. Congregations form around preachers, who can inspire the people under them.
Sometimes I myself try to understand the difference between the leadership of the “Ksatriya”, and the position of the “Guru”. Both are natural leaders, yet both have different responsibilites.
Perhaps the sangha needs a “Ksatriya leader, as well as the Brahminical leadership”.
Is this possible? To bring to life “Daivi Varnashram”? Is this what Gurudeva meant when he said he wanted to establish “Society”?
What you are asking is a really interesting question. It seems clear that Ksatriyas organise themselves into an autocratic system but how do the bramins organise themselves? How does a village of Bramins make decisions? Does one of them lead and in that case would he not be a ksyatria instead of a bramin and in that case would he be qualified to rule the bramins?
Is it ok for bramins to vote for issues or is voting something that is intrinsically wrong?
These are all incredibly important issues that need to be answered.
Haribol Subal Sakha
In family life, I have read the series of MahaBharata, and the Ramayana to my children. What I absorbed from it was, that in an Ashram of Brahmins, the one who was the wisest, of all, with more experience, and had gained the ability to solve the problems, clear the doubts and misgivings of the others, won the respect of the other brahmins, and therefore naturally became the “leader of the brahmins”.
Voting is a tricky thing. It can either be done from the head or the heart. By heart realization the brahmins, saw for example Visvamitra Muni, as the most advanced. Did they vote him in? No. They mutually accepted that he was qualified to head the ashram, because of his qualities.
If something goes wrong, the brahmana’s were in charge of approaching the King with their valid complaint and evidence. The King knew the worth of Brahminical wisdom , and usually followed their advice because he knew it was not materially motivated.
Some Kings were Rajarshi’s..like Maharaja Yudhisthira, who was both spiritually wise as well as a good practical manager of organizing the people of his Kingdom.
Dandavats
Maybe this isn’t the place to ask, because I am not able to get enough time yet online to read all these comments and write something relevant, but regarding the sensible comment in the main post about there being no “they” in this sanga: I want to know how I can also attend ANY meetings at all which will give me a good understanding of the future of our sanga.
So would anyone in India who knows of any such meetings going on now please keep me informed?…PLEASE.
Thanks
Non-violent Communication “therapy” trainings with Syamarani nationwide Ki Jai! We CAN Heal! Jai Gurudeva <3
Dear Pracetana didi prabhu,
Dandavat pranams. Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah !
Yes, I agree with your statement :
“The exchanges between devotees, are a wonderful way to stay enlivened and to grow in spiritual understanding.”
In the Nectar of Instruction, Srila Rupa Goswami explains how to perform devotional service in the association other devotees. Two of them are :
“guhyam ākhyāti pṛcchati”
guhyam — confidential topics; ākhyāti — explains; pṛcchati — enquires;
(3) opening one’s mind to the devotees, (4) inquiring from them about the confidential service of the Lord .
With regards to whether Srila Gurudeva said,..” someone who was not exemplary as a householder or sannyasi should not be invited” or ” we should hear from everyone and decide how to best spread these teachings and mission”.
Srila Rupa Goswami gives us the following advice, when there is two conflicting statements in shastras or what the Guru says :
“Virodho vakyayor yatra napramanyam tad isyate
yathaviruddhata ca syat tatharthah kalpyate tayoh ”
“When two scriptural statements contradict each other, one is not taken as inauthentic. One should give the meaning in such a way that the contradiction is removed.”
So with the mood given by Guru, Sadhu and Shastras, as well as the quote from Srila Rupa Goswamipada, we should by “love and affection”, also given by Srila Gurudeva in how we deal with one another, infer that we ALL should TRY to be “ideal, exemplary” sannyasis,sannyasinis, grhastas, brahmacaris and brahmacarinis, in our own individual hearts but if we
fail to live up to the standards, that we are “helped” by “exemplary” devotees ( with love and affection) to reach that level and be given the chance to ” hear from everyone and decide how to best spread these teachings and mission”.
This to me follows the teachings of Srila Gurudeva on “love and affection” and reconciles the two seamingly contracdictory statements. Jaya Srila Gurudeva !
Yours in the service of Srila Gurudeva !
Jayanta das
Thanks for the wonderful sastric references. The words of our acaryas are so powerful and penetrating!
On another note, I remember you sent me a proposal to compile devotees remembrances of Srila Gurudeva into a book. Could you resend it so I can post it here?
Thanks.
Yas
Raghava
Haribo, prabhu,
I agree and also might add that love and affection can also be like Mother Yashoda’s twisting Krsna’s ears when he was caught breaking the butter pot.
Sometimes during the course of our lifetime, we might find ourselves in a similar situation, and need to be corrected. Sometimes that correction can be sweet or intense, it depends on the severity of the crime or offence.
Hare Krsna, “Mother” Pracetana didi prabhu !
I surrender ! I wouldn’t mind getting my ears twisted by you because you are doing it with love and affection ! Hari bol !
Yours in the service of Srila Gurudeva,
Jayanta das
Hare Krsna prabhus, dandavat pranams, all glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga and the wonderful sangha of Srila Gurudev
So after reading this article, as well as the two recent articles proposing a fraeweork for the sangha’s future and ongoing development, I was considering how my family is looking to relocate, most likely to the Bay area in California, and we are eager to find ourselves in an area where there are devotees eager for meeting and hearing and chanting and taking prasad together … but we have no idea as to where such devotees might actually be living, or how to get in touch with them.
So I think that the basis of any community is, first of all, communication. And in this modern world, where we are spread out all over the place, it is essential we at least know where we all are in relation to each other, i.e. that some computer-literate devotees (which would completely exclude me!) create a web-resource that devotees could send their pertinent information to, in terms of where they live, and in what capacity they’d like to participate in active sanghas in their area (as in: being willing to host gatherings holding up to x people at a time, and how often, and when, and in which area; or if they are interested to know where gatherings are, but don’t have the facility or will to host such themselves; or are looking to finance a local center in league with other interested devotees, and maybe pay for a resident pujari/cook family to serve the deities full-time and cook for feast … just some ideas).
Narasingha das
Hare Krsna, Narasingha das prabhu,
After reading your posting, I also agree, and have mentioned in an email, to Nemi Maharaja, that just as there was a directory of centers and devotees listed in the back page of the old Back to Godhead Magazine, we could also consider, have an on line directory, of devotees so we could know who lives in our area, and then invite others who would want to participate in hearing and chanting together.
Some may not want to display such personal information, for various reasons, but those who are okay with that, could have the opportunity to see how many devotees live in their surrounding area. Namma Hatta is a great program……….wishing you well.
Pracetana dasi
I agree prabhus. A Bhakti Sangha Network. Information can be displayed but only in a secured password protected area. I have already been thinking about creating something like that….. but I have so many projects I’m working on….. http://bhakticulture.com being one of them.
Yrs
Raghava
Haribol, Raghava prabhu,
I checked out your site: bhakticulture.com and noted with interest the theme of “…communication without conflict”.
It’s interesting that, in this world of duality there will always be a positive and a negative. According to Ayurveda, there are 3 personality types, Vata, Pitta and Kapha.
Some personality types get along, and others do not because of the elemental differences. Air element blows or fans, fire. Earth element holds water.
It is a great science of compatability. And this science from the astrological point of view, as well was consulted before two people got married.
Why?…Because marriage was a sacred union, and was considered very inauspicious if broken. So great care was taken that when two people would live, and work closely together, they must be compatible.
Some astrological signs naturally aggravate other signs. Some signs are very complimentary to each other.
As Vaisnava’s we can only be above these influences of material nature, if we relate on a devotional transcendental platform. If we can’t see each other as spirit soul, but instead relate to our outer material covering, which in some cases may be very incompatible and a breeding ground for argument, then what???????? Then it seems qualities like patience, tolerance, forgiveness, empathy, etc. must be cultivated separately.
We are advised to avoid those aspiring on the path of bhakti, who are described in the Bhagavadgita as being influenced by the modes or qualities of passion and ignorance. These qualities are those of anger, impatience, rudeness, etc. as listed in the Chapter of the Divine and the Demoniac Qualities. We are advised to associate with those more advanced than ourselves, that are situated in the mode of goodness, with qualities of cleanliness, austerity, peacefulness etc.
If you do service with someone in any sangha, you may not have the choice of the best association, and you could be washing dishes beside someone very annoying. What should you do?…….ignore the inconvenience? or try to correct the misbehavior,,,,or leave and find another service?
I’d like to hear what you have to say ?
Yes, transcendental suddha-sattva is what we’re after, and it is situated in the hearts of the suddha-bhaktas who bring it from the spiritual world.
If we’re doing service with someone who is annoying us, we should look inside and try to make friends with our own mind. Usually by doing so we may see that no one can annoy us unless we allow ourselves to be annoyed. My Guru Maharaj taught us that “if you mistake a rope for a snake, with whom is the fault? With you or the rope?”
If someone is giving us a hard time, by wishing us ill, do not accept their gift. “Unreceived gifts remain with the giver,” is an old Buddhist saying that he used to quote.
Other than that, I concern myself mostly with those for whom I have some affection and who show me the same. That’s what my siksha Gurudeva told me to do…..
“Love knows no reasons, love knows no lies. Love defies all reasons, love has no eyes. But love is not blind, love sees but doesn’t mind.” Author – Unknown
Your aspiring servant,
Raghava
Dandavats Narasingha prabhuji !
I am currently working with Ananda Vardhana and Brajanath prabhus on a website/books to be tentatively entitled :
“GURUDEVA LILAMRTA-A FOREST OF DESIRE TREES”
( Personal Memories With Srila Gurudeva )
This website would allow for devotees to post their personal recollections with Srila Gurudeva (like facebook ) and also will feature a resource center for how devotees can get in touch with each other and help one another in their loving service to Srila Gurudeva !
This will be in conjunction with backtobhakti and purebhakti. This is still in the preliminary stages and not finalized yet. Hopefully soon ! Ananda Vardhana prabhu, who is working with me on this project, is still awaiting word from Brajanath prabhu. Hari bol !
Yours in the service of Srila Gurudeva,
Jayanta dasa
Which website are you referring to? Can you send me a write up so I can post it on the BtB site?
Thanks!
Sorry for the late reply, prabhu. We’re still working on it !
jayanta das ddvats
good that u r working with my friend ananda vardhan in that book, i alread wrote to him… this will please Gurudev very much ….
Jay Gurudev!!!
Dandavat pranams, Pracetana didi !
Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah ! Thank you very much for your kind response. I have noted the contents and have appreciated your opinions, examples and sincerity to see our sanga rise to a certain level in how we deal with one another. Due to my inefficiencies in explaining myself properly, you have misunderstood the gist of my letter and I apologize for that. So, let me please take this opportunity to humbly, give you the gist of what I was inferring to. I wanted to see devotees working together in harmony with love and affection and be “inclusive”, rather than “exclusive” and give everyone, an opportunity to voice their opinions and ideas with respect to the formation of our sanga without regard to whether they are “exemplary sannyasis, sannyasinis, grhastas, brahmacaris and brahmacarinis”. I didn’t agree with the statement, “someone who was not exemplary as a sannyasi or as a householder should not be invited”, but in your very next statement, is this,” we should hear from everyone and decide how to best spread these teachings and mission”. Now , this I agrre with ! That’s all ! That was the gist of my letter, didi. I also agree with you when you stated, “The only person that should judge your level of advancement is your own personal honesty. If you take a good look at yourself, and see where you are at, then your own honesty will let you know if you should go to the meeting and voice your opinion. The invitation is open to everyone, and no one is going to check whether you are qualified or not. That is up to YOU ! ” That was nice,didi ! And also when you stated, ” I agree with Jnana Shakti, that some of us, need time to heal from old wounds, but if we continually get doses of love and trust, such as has been exemplified by this above most recent posting, and announcement of the upcoming meeting,,,it will help us all to gain confidence, in re-igniting the fire of Devotional Service.” Very nice, didi ! Well said ! Hari bol !
Didi, we all have to heal, like you’ve stated “from ald wounds”, so we must be careful in that in our dealings with other devotees in our sanga, we respect their opinions and contributions, seeing only the good that they are trying to do and overlooking their faults, of which all of us have.
Ofcourse, all leaders must be exemplary, otherwise, their preaching would be innefective ! My concern is that in all the public forums, there are sometimes misunderstandings, which is why out of thousands of those in Gurudeva’s sanga, only a few of us dare to write our opinions for fear of being rejected, humiliated,ignored,reprisala, etc. We have seen in the past such great and bold devotees, as our dear Srimati Syamarani didi, dared to voice their opinions and get puumeled and spat on for it. We should not have this happen in our sanga !
Thank you, didi, for your time ! Hare Krsna !
With love and affection,
Jayanta das
Ofcourse, all leaders must be exemplary, otherwise, their preaching would be innefective ! My concern is that in all the public forums, there are sometimes misunderstandings, which is why out of thousands of those in Gurudeva’s sanga, only a few of us dare to write our opinions for fear of being rejected, humiliated,ignored, etc. We have seen in the past such great and bold devotees, as our dear Srimati Syamarani didi, dared to voice their opinions and get puumeled and spat on for it. We should not have this happen in our sanga.
Thanks for your contributions to the forum. I agree in that we should keep our sanity and not try to create any big waves at this time by publishing any Guru Tattva position papers, which may have a polarizing effect. (Not all will agree with the position).
In these times when there is much discussion on Guru Tattva, I suggest we focus our energy on understanding how to become a qualified disciple. Following that trail will bring us to the lotus feet of Sri Guru.
A sattvic approach full of respect and humility will allow Guru and Krishna to work through us. Detachment is key. Let’s be clear in our intentions to serve the mission of Guru-Gauranga, and trust Krishna to deal with the details. The only “opponent” is the one within. The solution lies within our heart; not our head in this emotionally charged period.
My modest 2 cents.
Be well and pranams to all.
Raghava Pandit das
Haribol, Jayanta das, Pranams, all glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.
Thanks for your reply and thoughts. The exchanges between devotees, are a wonderful way to stay enlivened and to grow in spiritual understanding. Thankyou for that.
I also just wanted to clarify that the statement:…”someone who was not exemplary as a householder or sannyasi should not be invited.” seemed to my understanding to be Rupa Raghunatha’s, recollection of Srila Gurudeva’s own words, during his massage.
I understood Rupa’s statement to mean Srila Gurudeva himself spoke these words…” someone who was not exemplary as a householder or sannyasi should not be invited.” So I was commenting in my post according to this understanding.
My understanding is that whatever Guru, says, we should follow. And it seemed to me the best way,(according to my understanding), to actually follow that order of Gurudeva’s was for the individual to look honestly in the heart and judge for themselves where they are at,,,,whether they are exemplary or not,,,,meaning that are we following the do’s and dont’s given by Guru.
I agree with Raghava prabhu who says: “the solution lies within our heart.” Each of us has the inherent responsibility to look within, and be introspective.
In my eyes, the beauty of this sangha, is that Srila Gurudeva has given us so many wonderful guidelines, instructions, sweet pastimes, and even bitter truths, and tough love, that we have an unlimited source of reference to go deep into our own heart and find the truth. Then the next step is to walk the talk, or in other words be brave enough to put it into practice.
I guess everyone of us, who expresses themselves here on the net, is opening themselves up to be subject to either the agreement or disagreement of others.
For me, these exchanges are wonderful learning experiences, as well as the opportunity for uplifting association.
Thanks to all, for being …..themselves !!!
Aspiring to come closer to understanding pure bhakti,
I remain a struggling servant,
Pracetana dasi
Thanks Didi, your comments always make a nice contribution the site’s purpose for existence. As a matter of fact, the word community consists of 2 components; common and unity — so that which unites us, will bind us (sambandha). And the act of building community is indeed communication.
I’ll tell you another secret I am working on with regards to your closing comment: “Thanks to all, for being …..themselves !!!” Another meaning for the IPBYS…, should I say…? I will announce it soon, here.
Yrs
Raghava
What mystery is this?
Dandavat pranams dear prabhus.
I was also in Mauritius at that time. I wasn’t privy to those conversations with Srila Gurudeva, but I remember Srila Gurudeva speaking about it. Srila Gurudeva practically never stopped in the middle of his massage, but I remember on this particular day he broke in the middle of his massage and started to speak. He wanted that sannyasis should be invited to attend, brahmacaris, exemplary householders and women preachers also like Syamarani, but someone who was not exemplary as a sannyasi or as a householder should not be invited. It was clearly apparent that this was very important to him and he also mentioned at that time that we should hear from everyone and decide how to best spread these teachings and mission of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Sripad Madhav Maharaja and Sriman Brajanath prabhu briefly replied to Srila Gurudeva and then he shut his eyes and the massage continued as usual.
Hari bol, Rupa Raghunatha,
Thankyou, for bringing to our attention, the most important point of:
“someone who was not exemplary as a sannyasi or as a householder should not be invited”
and
” we should hear from everyone and decide how to best spread these teachings and mission”
It is a great responsibility we take upon ourselves, to be exemplary. For if we still maintain bad habits, those habits may cloud our vision, and then our input will be colored or biased by our anartha’s. We owe it, to our spiritual masters, to be true and honest to their basic rules of purification. The four regulative principles, are what free us from, cloudy vision.,,,,and we need more than ever a “Clear Vision”,,,at this juncture of time.
Hare Krishna Pracetana dasi,
Dandavats. I agree, purity is the force. I have personally seen how Srila Gurudeva is so merciful to everyone, but when it comes to representing his movement and siddhanta, he is very very strict.
Affectionately,
your servant,
Rupa Raghunath das
Dandavats prabhus !
I understand and I agree that in the case of tattvas and siddhantas, we should be very strict as taught by Srila Gurudeva. But who would decide which sannyasi, sannyassini, grhasta, brahmacari or brahmacarini is exemplary or not ? And if decided by a number of “exemplary” devotees who are not, then what do we do with the “non-exemplary ones” ? Exclude them in all our meetings and resolutions, or even kick them out ? What happened to love and affection ? Can we not try to help each other in our sadhanas as taught by Srila Gurudeva’s examples ? Besides, in a vote , the “exemplary devotees” should outnumber “non-exemplary devotees” ? So there should be no anxiety there. All the devotees have come to Srila Gurudeva’s sanga for various reasons and Srila Gurudeva is Patita Pavana and has sprinkled His causeless mercy upon everyone regadless of our inneficiencies and non-qualifications. He has given tons and tons of His Sacred Blood to try to make ALL OF US qualified to serve the Devine Couple under His Eternal Guidance ! To exclude anyone who wants to serve in His mission is not showing compassion. Just my humble opinion. Please forgive me if I inadvertantly made any offences, as none were meant.
Aspiring for the mercy of Hari, Guru and Vaisnavas,
Jayanta das
Haribol, Jayanta das
All glories to Sri Guru, and his Divine Instructions, which sometimes may taste bitter. If a person is driving his car and has his seat belt on, he does not fear when the police man pulls him over for the seat belt check.
If one does not have their seat belt on, they become fearful, they will be found out, and given a fine. In my meager attempt to give an example, this was, what came to mind. We are all on this path of Bhakti, and all of us are at different stages of development.
No one is here to judge another. As Srila Gurudeva has said many times:..” Check your own pulse” He also said: …”Put your hand on your own heart, and judge yourself”.
No one knows you better than yourself. I think the answer to your question is just plain “honesty.” If Srila Gurudeva said one should be qualified, then what does that mean to you? What does Guru expect of us?
I heard that when we come to the spiritual path, and are fortunate to meet a bonafide guru, it is because of the accumulation of our past good karma, or sukriti. I have heard that at first the path of Bhakti is easy because we are coming to the point of purification where we left off in our previous lives. Then the path begins to take effort, because now we have come to a point, where in order to advance, we feel some discomfort to reach the next stage.
I think of it with the example of Yoga exersizes. Take for example the cobra pose. This pose has the beginners, the intermediate, and then the advanced posture. So when we first come to the Yoga Studio, we may find it easy, pleasant and enjoyable to try the beginners pose. Then when the teacher gives some further directions, and disciplines, like stretching further and for longer periods of time, our body which is not used to the new demands experiences pain. But to master the pose, we have to experience the pain, and discipline.
So we come to Gurudeva, attracted by his love for us which is very sweet. But then he gives us the challenge of the do’s and the do not’s. The rules he gives are to make us strong, so we can master the yoga posture so to speak.
Everyone will do the cobra pose according to their ability. Some will not have such good stretching power, and some will have excellent stretching power. It is how you apply yourself.
No one judges others in the class, because everyone is doing according to their best ability.
The statement of Srila Gurudeva’s, to become qualified, is something of a challenge for all of us. The only person that should judge your level of advancement is your own personal honesty. If you take a good look at yourself, and see where you are at, then your own honesty will let you know if you should go to the meeting and voice your opinion. The invitation is open to everyone, and no one is going to check whether you are qualified or not. That is up to YOU !
Srila Gurudeva was merciful, his devotees are also merciful, and they have been instructed by Srila Gurudeva to hear from: “each other”. We can exersize that right, but we can’t be attached to the result, of whether or not our input will be accepted.
It’s, just like me answering your post. I have been given an opportunity to answer your post if i want to, by the management of the devotees on this site, but I can’t be attached to whether or not you like what I have said, and have gotten something out of it, …or if you choose to think what I have said has no value, or some value etc.
I guess that is why in Bhagavadgita it says we have a right to perform our duty, but we should not be attached to the results.
I don’t think the devotees here will judge anyone, we just have to be honest with ourselves, and always strive for improvement in our personal sadhana.
Thank you Brajanath and Yasodananda prabhus
The following sentence, from what you wrote above, portrays a mood that I find very appealing.
‘We are holding on to his lotus feet for mercy, more so than belonging to any society, temple or sanga.’
I am sure if we all have lots of trust in our Srila Gurudeva and his powerful, loving connections, then all will work out just as it should.
I have faith in you all.
ys
tkd
Dandavat pranams, Brajanath and Yasodananda prabhus !
Sri Sri Guru Gaurangaua Jayatah !
Thank you very much for the announcement! It is very encouraging to read of “inclusiveness” in the pre-formation of the Advisory Board. I believe the majority, if not unanimously, Srila Gurudeva’s Sanga, feels that this would be THE KEY to our success in fulfilling Gurudeva’s desires !
I will email you prabhus at the email that you’ve provided, my humble suggestions. I thnk everyone should voice their opinions, suggestions, questions, in order to engage everyone
in Gurudeva’s Seva ! And be counted!
Here are some points, I will humbly submit in more detail in my upcoming email to the both of you :
My Humble Suggestions And Love To Our Sanga
1) There has to be a better way to communicate with one another individually and collectively thru emails, websites, by phone, fax, skype, etc. If a devotee sends an email and it doesn’t get answered, then there’s a feeling of not “being important enough”. Maybe there should be a devotee database that is shared “carefully” ???
2) Everyone in Srila Gurudeva’s sanga should be given all opportunity to offer their services. In order to feel inspired and engaged, there must be services offered and services given. The Seva Groups was a start but never officially implemented throughout all locations of our sanga in the world.
3) Devotees that are good in business and financing should
get together and develop sanga businesses (eg Govinda’s Bliss Bars, Radha Govinda’s Vegetarian Restaurants, etc), that would belong to Gurudeva’s Sanga (IPBYS), and would once and for all end devotee financial hardships (in looking for work outside in the karmi world)and also provide financing and distribution of Srila Gurudeva’s books and the expansion and maintenance of Srila Gurudeva’s Mathas worlwide. The Sikhs have their WaGuruChews, the Amish have their handmade quilts and furniture, etc. Why can’t we ?
4) Less government, more bhakti. A system of checks and balances, in forming our IPBYS Constitution. Each location
in our world sanga should have some individuality and some independence but are tied to the sanga as a whole in the spirit of love and affection with the ultimate goal that pleases Srila Gurudeva, who is always at the center of our dealings.
As each location develops in our sanga, a dissemination of ideas should be shared to increase enthusiasm and perfection in our organization.
5)I humbly believe that all sannyasis, sannyasinis, ghrihasta preachers (brahmacaris, vanaprasta, babajis included) should travel in ALL the locations in our world sanga in a constant ROTATION, which would help prevent the much dreaded “zonal acharya madness”. Sorry, most of us older devotees still haven’t recuperated yet from the mistakes in the past. That was one of the reasons why we
left our past and served with Srila Gurudeva. Besides, Srila Gurudeva was so sweeter, so much loving and so very merciful ! We should all keep that mood, if we are to be effective preachers !
JAYA SRILA GURUDEVA !!! JAYA SRILA PRABHUPADA !!! JAYA, JAYA SRI RADHE !!!
An aspirant of the mercy and service of Hari, Guru and Vaisnavas,
Jayanta das
Dandavats Jayanta prabhu and all other devotees. My two cents worth:
1.Great idea.
2.Terrific.
3.My worry about this one is that something besides pure bhakti gets mixed into the “cookie batch”. When meeting together outside working hrs, I’ve witnessed that collegues of a devotee business interact differently w/ each other than w/ the non-employee devotees, and I’ve felt left out of the sanga.
4.Checks and balances definately important.
5.I’ve seen way too much “zonal acharya madness” myself. The idea of having preachers stay for longer periods to cultivate relationships and coach like BV Nemi Maharaja is doing in Russia also appeals to me though.
Just wanted to contribute, and hope it is not taken in a destructive way.
Your friend and servant,
Gita dasi
Dandavat pranams, my dear godsister, Gita didi !
Thank you for your contributions ! I really appreciate your concerns for #3. I just thought that since we all have our different lives with different employments, that seperate us, that if there were several businesses that were offered to devotees as an alternative to working outside, the dynamics, if worked out, in a logical way, can bring us closer together. “A family that works together, stays together”. Most of us in the grhasta ashram must find work in the karmi world, but if we can associate in common/shared sanga businesses, then I think there can be more good than “harm”. But that is just my humble opinion. Let us welcome more feedback from the sanga on this one. Your point, I believe needs to be addressed and worked out, if we are to move forward with this idea. Thank you again, didi !
#5 Sripad Nemi maharaja is such a sweet devotee and I’m sure he’s against “zonal acharya madness”, having left that institution to join in Srila Gurudeva’s Sanga. So I agree with you that preachers can stay for longer periods of time in certain areas in our sanga that they’ve developed relationships in. My humble request is that he also develop relationships in other locations so that we all can benefit from his good preaching and association. Having other preachers also develop relationships in the same areas would prevent a feeling of “my zone” and develop a feeling of “our zone under Srila Gurudeva”. Just my humble opinion. Let’s welcome the other opinions in our sanga on this subject. Thank you again,didi, for your thoughts in this matter, which I respect. Hare Krsna !
Humbly, yours in the service of Srila Gurudeva,
Jayanta das
I am waiting when any sannyasi or preacher is going to visit UK. Last time it was 8 months ago…
I can understand that there is no temples but…in ISCKON maybe 10 or more sannyasis already came and made nice programs (in Birminaghm, Coventry) I do not mension other parts of UK, just this 2 towns.
Where our sannyasis are?…
Where our preachers are?…
My house is open for all of them, waiting for Hari Katha and help…
Radhe radhe!
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.
I was very impressed with the clarity, of the detailed, informative posting, which graciously invites our humble ideas and input, to work cooperatively together in preserving the mission of our exhaulted masters.
I was happy to see the email address, where those who may not be able to attend the meetings, can still submit their thoughts, for consideration.
I agree with Jnana Shakti, that some of us, need time to heal from old wounds, but if we continually get doses of love and trust, such as has been exemplified by this above most recent posting, and announcement of the upcoming meeting,,,it will help us all to gain confidence, in re-igniting the fire of Devotional Service.
All glories to the service of all the Vaisnavas.
All glories to the auspicious influence of Makara Sankranti !
Dandavats. Thank you prabhus for this notice. I for one, am encouraged by the concepts mentioned above; centered around inclusiveness and learning from past experiences.
One the down side, many feel averse to create and maintain locally structured centers. The positive aspects of doing that are at first blush, obvious: A meeting place (larger than someone’s home)for group sravan, kirtan and smaran; establishment of installed Deities, inviting guests, a book distribution outlet, perhaps brahmacari quarters, etc. Yet it seems many are hesitant to form a legal entity and maintain it due to busy lives maintaining families, associated costs and reluctancies to co-manage based on inner scars from conflicts over years gone by, the likes of which we’ve struggled to forget. When these ideas are discussed, there is usually a common withdrawl that sets in and thus local sangas, although still cohesive, remain disjointed. I think it will take some time, effort and perhaps some “therapy”.
In light of Srila Gurudev’s expressions, it would seem to behoove us to come up with local plans to move forward and act upon them.
Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing the collective ideas from the global sanga.
Hare Krsna