by Swami BV Nemi
I am so inspired to see so many comments on the last article I wrote, with such a wide variety of opinions and moods. I am very grateful to everyone who put their heart on their sleeve, and took the trouble to write in. Some are afraid that no one will be interested in their two cents’ worth. But it is so important to find our voices, and hear each other. “I want to be welcomed instead of barely tolerated.” “I want someone to listen to my proposals.” So poignant.
One may ask – and devotees are asking – “Why not just chant the pure holy name, and associate with devotees? Then all the answers will come spontaneously.”
My personal difficulty with this approach is that I was not born into a sattvic, Vedic culture. “How to live spiritually in the material world?” The answers to this practical question were not common knowledge. My so-called “moral tutor” at Oxford University told me that it was more important to learn how to drink without getting drunk than it was to get a degree. My society and culture of origin were frankly inadequate.
“Just chant Hare Krishna and it will be alright!”? Maybe. But I saw my family break up after I had chanted for almost 20 years, because I did not know how to relate to myself and others. I did not know the basic principles of communications and of family life. Granted, that was before I came to Gurudeva’s sanga, but as I travel in Gurudeva’s sanga, I see the same patterns repeating themselves, although we are gathered around a pure devotee. (And weren’t we when Srila Prabhupada was with us?)
Of course, Srila Gurudeva cares for us and loves us. However, as I travel here and there, I see that many devotees don’t understand that Gurudeva loves them, and they do not make this the basis of their practice. They hear very high hari-katha, but they do not know how to manage their lives and families in a practical way. Where is our education, our training, and our instruction for new people? Where is our encouragement and support for existing devotees? New devotees are coming into the sanga, but some local groups are breaking up because devotees don’t know how to relate with each other nicely.
Now the second question comes: “OK, OK. We need to improve, but why look at material organizations for inspiration or understanding?” Well, why not look at material organizations if they have something to offer? If we want to learn about cars and computers, do we insist on hearing only from devotees? Do we insist that our doctor and dentist are devotees? No, because cars and computers work the same for devotees and non-devotees, and so do hearts, digestive systems and teeth. The same is also largely true for functional communications, relationships and community development. The needs of devotees in these areas are similar to those of non-devotees, even though we chant Hare Krishna and they do not. Srila Prabhupada recognized this, for he said that we devotees are not bound by varnashrama principles, but we should use these guidelines “for practical management”.
Relationships, communication, and community are part of the basis of spiritual practice. Paradoxically, some material groups and organizations are more advanced in these areas than we are. They are finding ways of tuning into the timeless, universal principles. For example, the most successful program for recovery from alcoholism is a natural adaption of the Saranagati principle. A popular process for community development follows the sequence of the rasa-lila.
Responsible devotees in our sanga are learning about effective relationship and community from people who do not yet practice bhakti.
In conclusion, I want to say that I do not want to construct any “official” answer or procedure. I do not have any authority to say what must be done and what must not be done. I do not want such authority, and Srila Gurudeva told me personally not to look for title or position.
What do I want? I want to identify and share and be part of good practice in the highest sense. I want to find and share what works. I know that some devotees share the same aspiration, and I will be happy to cooperate with them in whatever way I can.
The sharing we are engaged in now is part of the process of finding and recognizing each other.
Nice post – I found it to be very well written. It was extremely informative
“Unless one is an eternally liberated soul, one cannot attain the platform of spontaneous love (raganuga bhakti) without first going through all the stages of regulated practice (vaidhi bhakti)”
The editors made a mistake with the terminology in parenthesis.
It should read:
“Unless one is an eternally liberated soul, one cannot attain the platform of spontaneous love (RAGATMIKA BHAKTI) without first going through all the stages of regulated practice (RAGANUGA SADHANA BHAKTI)”
Below is something I wrote a few years ago as the first series for a longer article/book/booklet.
The administrator of this website has my permission to post it up as an article entry if she or he wishes.
Raganuga Bhakti Is Sadhana Bhakti
It is essential that we know our subject. What is raga, what is ragatmika, and what is raganuga? The three are different yet related. The misunderstanding and conflation of one with another stems from an editorial mistake in the very first paragraph of ISKCON’S Founder, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Maharaja’s Nectar of Devotion Ch. 15, entitled “Spontaneous Devotional Service”.
There it is written, “The examples of spontaneous devotional service can be easily seen in Krishna’s direct associates in Vrindavan. The spontaneous dealings of the residents of Vrindavan in relationship with Krishna are called raganuga.”
The word there should be “ragatmika”, not raganuga.
Again, another editorial mistake is found in the next paragraph wherein it is written, “Srila Rupa Goswami has defined raganuga bhakti as spontaneous attraction for something while completely absorbed in thoughts of it.”
The word there should be “raga”, not raganuga bhakti.
In order to understand the subtle differences between raga, ragatmika and raganuga, I am presenting the readers here with slokas from the original text of Sri Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami.
Raga –
iste svarasiki ragah paramavistata bhavet
tanmayi ya bhaved bhaktih satra ragatmikodita
BRS 1.2.272
Translation: Raga is complete absorption in the Deity of One’s heart’s choice
And ragatmika? The rest of the sloka defines as such; That absorbing devotion is here described as ragatmika bhakti.
In simple English, raga is the intense obsession for Krishna found in His associate in Braj. They are thus known as “ragatmika” (raga in atma) due to the passion for Krishna they hold in their atma.
There are 2 kinds of ragatmika;
sa kamarupa sambandharupa ceti bhaved dvidha
BRS 1.2.273
1. kamarupa; raga consisting of romantic feelings for Krishna), and
2. sambandharupa; raga consisting of having a feeling of relationship (sambandha) with Krishna in dasya, sakhya or vatsalya.
Being that ragatmika bhakti is of two types, naturally, raganuga bhakti, which follows in it’s wake, will be of two types as well – kamanuga and sambandhanuga. However, for now we will focus on the question, “what exactly IS raganuga bhakti?”
First, let us define SADHANA, since it is a common misconception in the West that raganuga bhakt is not a sadhana, when it actually is.
Our revered Srila Rupa Goswamipada defines sadhan-bhakti as;
krtisadhya bhavet sadhya bhavasa sadhanabhidha
nityasiddhasya bhavasya prakatyam hrdi sadhyata
BRS 1.2.2
Translation;
“That, which is accomplished through engagement of the senses, and through which bhav (spiritual emotion) is attained, is called sadhan-bhakti, or bhakti in practice.”
In simple english, those devotional practices which are accomplished through the body and mind, with the aim of attaining bhav and of which give rise to bhav in the heart, those are “sadhan”.
If we are chanting Harinama without the aim and object of attaining bhav, it can hardly be called “sadhan”.
Now, there are 2 kinds of sadhan-bhakti. What are they?
vaidhi raganuga ceti sa dvidha sadhanabhidha
BRS 1.2.5
Translation; Sadhan-bhakti is of 2 types; vaidhi and raganuga.
What are the differences between these 2 types of sadhan-bhakti?
yatra raganavaptatvat pravrttir upajayate
sasanenaiva sastrasya sa vaidhi bhaktir ucyate
BRS 1.2.6
Translation: When there is an absense of greed or liking in the heart and devotion is aroused rather by shastric injunctions, that devotion is known as “vaidhi bhakti”.
OK! So now what is raganuga-bhakti?
virajantIm abhivyaktam vrajavasi-janadisu
ragatmikam anusrta ya sa raganugocyate
BRS 1.2.270
Translation: Bhakti that is uniquely and naturally manifest in the Brajbasis is called ragatmika-bhakti, and bhakti that arises in the wake of that ragatmika-bhakti (out of greed for hearing Braj lila katha) is called raganuga-bhakti.
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in his Sri Sanmodana Bhasyam commentary on Mahaprabhu’s Sri Siksastakam simplifies it thus;
“Paramarthika shraddha (transcendental faith) is of 2 kinds;
1. shastrartha-avadharana-mayi shraddha – faith which brings about engagement in bhakti inspired by the governing principles of scripture, and
2. bhagavat-lila-madhurya-lobh-mayi-shraddha – faith which brings about engagement in bhakti due to intense longing (lobh, or greed) arisen from hearing the sweet lilas of Sri Krishna.
We can shorten those terms to; 1. shastra-mayi (vaidhi) and 2. lobh-mayi (raganuga).
In other words, if upon hearing of the sweet dealings between Sri Krishna and His parikaras (associates) in Braj, a person wishes to one day serve Krishna like that also, and with that inspiration and aim they begin their sadhana bhakti, they are a raganuga sadhaka. However, if upon hearing from scripture that one will suffer miseries or go to Hell if they do not worship Krishna, and on account of fear of Hell or a desire to end suffering and achieve bliss, that person commences their sadhana-bhakti, then they can be called a “vaidhi-bhakti-sadhaka”.
Readers please note – vaidhi-bhakti-sadhan and raganuga-bhakti-sadhan are different from the very beginning – right from shraddha!
The vaidhi-bhakti outlook is described in Srimad Bhagavatam 2.1.5
tasmad bharata sarvatma
bhagavan isvaro harih
srotavyah kirtitavyas ca
smartavyas cecchatabhayam
“O descendant of King Bharat, one who desires to be free from all miseries must hear about, glorify and also remember the Personality of Godhead, who is the Supersoul, the controller and the savior from all miseries.”
This is the type of sloka that would inspire a practicioner of vaidhi bhakti to perform sadhana.
What type of sloka would inspire a raganuga sadhaka?
Two sweet examples from Srila Prabhodananda Saraswatipada (forgive me for not providing the Sanskrit, I’m just pulling them out of my archived notes as I write this);
1. I don’t care if Krishna is beginningless or was born at some time, whether he is brilliant, or a fool. whether he is compassionate at every moment or whether he is totally devoid of any quality of mercy. I don’t even care whether he greater than Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha, or whether he is just an ordinary human being. I only pray that this Son of the cowherd king be my chosen Lord here in this land of Vraja, birth after birth
2. What do we care for all these holy scriptures,
or the wise illuminating paths described in them
and followed by so many evolved pious souls!
What do we need them for if there are no sweet amorous
sentiments for our Krishna nor the nectar of Sri Radha’s glories!
I don’t even care for the opulence of Vaikuntha
if there is no Radhika, the Personification of Divine Love,
but I will remain here in the blessed land of Vrindavana
for million of births, enlivened by the sweet hope of
attaining Her passionate Divine Love.
We know that vaidhi bhakti arises out of a sense of fear as well as a sense of dependence on shastra. As for lobh-mayi (raganuga bhakti), from where does this lobh (greed) arise within an individual?
Our Srila Visvanath Chakravarti Thakur explains in “Raga Vartma Chandrika” (literally – A Moonray Illuminating the Path of Raga), writes;
There are 2 sources of this greed:
1. the mercy of Bhagavan, or
2. the mercy bestowed by Bhagavan’s anuragi devotees.
But again there are two types of mercy bestowed by the devotee;
1. praktana (old, or from previous lives), and
2. adhunika (recent, from this life)
“The lobh arising from the mercy received in previous lives from Krishna’s anuragi bhaktas who are endowed with bhav-madhurya, or the sweet sentiments of the Braj residents), is called “praktana”. The lobh arising from the mercy of such anuragi bhaktas in the present life is called “adhunika”. Those whose hunger has already been awakened in a previous life will immediately take shelter at the lotus feet of a raganuga-rasik-guru upon the manifestation of such greed in this life. However, sadhakas whose lobh is adhunika (recent) develop their thirst only upon taking shelter of a the lotus feet of a guru. ”
Another BIG misconception that must be addresed is that raganuga vaishnavas do not follow any scriptural rules. That could not be further from the truth! Srila Chakravarty Thakur addresses this very point in his next text;
” When both of the previously mentioned types of devotees, having either praktana or adhunika lobh (previous or recent greed), become fervently curious about the means for achieving the bhav of Sri Krishna’s associates, then they depend on SHASTRA and the favorable systems prescribed therein. It is only through the reasoning established by the shastras that this bhav can be achieved. There is no other way. If a person desires to drink milk, how can she get it? At that point shes needs to learn through the guidance of a knowledgeable person how and where she can easily obtain milk. She will accept instructions on how to purchase and cow and maintain it. After the cow gives birth to a calf, only then will she be able to milk the cow and drink milk……..
Similarly, a sadhaka filled with greed also has to profit from relevant instructions. One cannot gain knowledge on one’s own. In Srimad Bhagavatam 8.6.12, Brahmaji explains, ‘Just as a human traditionally derives fire from wood, milk from a cow, grains and water from the earth, and money from business and thereby maintains his life, in the same way, O Vishnu, the experts in bhakti say that we can attain You by applying our intelligence to take proper association. By this, we will overcome the 3 modes of nature and thus progress gradually in bhakti”
Here it is established that individuals with greed to enter Krishna lila will indeed commence sadhana bhakti via help from relevant shastras that will instruct them on the methods of attainment.
Exactly what those shastras are and what methods they outline will be explained next in part 2 of this series.
Dasi anu dasi abhilasini,
Tungbidya
Sadhu! Sadhu!
All glories to Shastra, all glories to devotees who read the sastra, who understand the sastra, and share the sastra, and live the sastra……..!
Brilliant exposition, Tungbidya, Didi.
Please come to Alachua, Fl and give us your valuable association and classes.
How can you Believe in God+Guru if you Can´t believe in yourself? So…very often i found believing in God is a way of not taking responsibility of your live!! But!!! Help yourself…then God + Guru Helps you!! Real Godconsciousness has to lead yourself to Selfawarness and Selfresponseability! no other way…..<3
I want to hear these points from every sannyasi and guru…otherwise….i cant listen anymore to kind of obsoled kind of selfrealisatio!!n
It seems that they had forgotten to make a contemporary adjustment…too many devotees i´ve seen..hiding behind this kind of consciousness..and starving…of less healing and less proper guiding….so lets try first to become a good Human being before being a neurotic devotee
Hari Bol, Mukunda,
I am trying to follow your train of thought here.
My understanding is that “God helps those, that help themselves”, and that “Self Realization”, is an individual personal experience. It is a healing experience, because when we realize our true inner connection to the Supreme Lord, in a mood of either neutrality, servitorship, friendship, parental, or conjugal exchange,…there in lies our genuine satisfaction, and healing from material contamination.
No one has to tell you that you are full, after eating a meal. This is something that you know “yourself”.
Krsna gives one Guru, and then Guru gives one Krsna. This transcendental experience, is a real exchange that one can experience for oneself,,,,,thus “Self Realization”.
Our temples, communities, sangha’s and association can help us get there. But as Srila Prabhupada is quoted saying: ” you fly your own plane”.
So yes, the responsibility to become a good Human Being, does have a connection to the Supersoul in the heart, as well as taking good advice from the external manifestation of the Super Soul,,, *the Spiritual Master.* With out the grace of the Spiritual Master, we can’t make the personal connection, and thus take this responsibility fully.
Of course all would agree, no one can chant your rounds for you, that you have to take responsibility to do yourself. The responsibility of getting up in the Brahma Muhurta Hour, is also your personal responsibility. It is also your personal responsibility to offer all your food, observe Ekadasi, and become knowledgeable of how to live a Sattvic Lifestyle, so your life is not full of confusion, anxiety, disease, and suffering.
Personal responsibility, I feel is necessary for success in any endeavor, and especially the spiritual path. Christians, want Christ forever , to take responsibility for their sins,,,,,but we shouldn’t put that burden on others. We have the order of Guru, we have his books, his mercy, his guidance,,,,now we just have to DO IT ! And that takes personal responsibility. At the time of death, we will have to personally deal with the condition of our own heart and mind, and thoughts, and feelings.
So yes I agree,,,,let’s take personal responsibility for our actions. Thanks for your train of thought.
In response to anonymous
Hare Krishna
So, personaly I have nothing against your presentation as anonymous. I can understand that it facilitates the opportunity to explore new subject and point of views in front of readers who might be more or less narrow minded and prompt to have unfavorable judgment. Furthermore we may know more on someone when he is telling its mind than by its name only.
I found some interesting point in your explanation.
First you tell
“ the basic human skills necessary to live in an affectionate ,effective and efficient village/sanga sized group”
The day to day life in a village doesn’t aim at extensive communication but as you mention it that affectionate dealings prevails.
I am not going to debate between the good side and bad side of each culture western and Indian with vedic background, because each has its “good or bad” and supporters and opponents. And they are of different nature “polychronic and monochronic”.
But, your point of view makes me realize that what devotees are looking after is affection not to say love, the famous love and trust of Srila Prabhupada. That love and trust naturally result in “group decisions that the group owns as a whole.” I don’t think that communication skills can bring such result.
That’s a fact that, “Westerners are far more developed when it comes to inclusiveness and communicating”, but it aim at ultimately focusing on the comfort of the body and its friend the mind. What spiritual good may come out of it? Why should we imitate?
The thing is that we are not born in a vaishnava family our brother and sisters were not chanting Harinam. We have practically no example of a day to day life of true broad minded vaishnava, but still we are trying to follow the path of vaishnavism . What a challenge !
But anyway Chaitanya has design it that way and that is our good fortune otherwise we would not be there having these exchanges. We would simply follow the flock of materialist. He is certainly conscious about our situation.
There must be a way to reconcile these opposites which make us so unsteady. Guru and Gauranga will help us to do so. If we are unable to trust each others at least we should trust the lord.
Concerning the toilet paper I give my voice to Pracetana dasi +1.
Your servant Vrindavan Vihari das
In response to Anonymous
…I had written a lengthy response to your comment, but it has come to my attention that it was erased.
I must say a few things that may be hard to bear, but if I don’t say them , then I feel injustice will prevail. Forgive me please in advance, but I strongly disagree with all the points in your post. It makes me feel uncomfortable writing to one who is “anonymous”.,,because I feel you may have something to hide. I was involved in getting my child out of the sexual abuse situation in Vrndavana Gurukula many years ago, so my trust in those who do not exhibit transperancy, or who are not straightforward enough to disclose their identity makes me suspicious.
You have put down Vedic culture, and this is not right. We can learn a great deal from our Indian born godbrothers and sisters. Granted in every culture there are bad examples, but a knife for example can be used either to cut up vegetables for the service of the Lord, or can be used to murder someone with. The knife is not the problem, it is the application and use of the item.
If any Indian born person is at fault for improper behaviour, it is not the fault of Sanatan Dharma,,,,it is the fault of the WESTERN INFLUENCE, and foreign occupation which wants to destroy the glory of India’s spiritual culture. The glory of the Indian people is that they have survived despite the deprogramming the English beat them down with.
The new age westerners are adopting healing, and positive transformative skills from the ancient cultures. It is not a western credit by any means. I’ve read many sites in this regard and have found that the Indian traditions are used as basis for many new age healing promotions.
Western idealogy, and culture has a consummer based civilization , corporate run, that does not care about the rape of the earth, or pollution of our planet. Our land fills and garbage dumps are over flowing with the unwanted, rejected products of modern material civilization.
We clear cut forests to produce useless products among which is toilet paper . Ayurveda tells us, that to clean our lower gates, …a lota, water and the left hand is all that is necessary. It prevents yeast infection and disease. So please do not decry the vedic system.
If the purpose of your comment was to minimize the glory of India, it didn’t work for me. I strongly believe in the Lord’s design given in the original spiritual Vedic Culture and it’s many guidelines, that serve to make us peaceful, healthy and happy spiritual aspirants.
Modern civilization, and western values cannot even come close to the jewel of true Vedic Culture,and day to day Vedic living. Your comments are simply not true.
Please note that nothing is removed from this post my the moderator (yours truly), unless there is Vaisnava aparadha and/or obscenity.
Thanks for your continued input here
Yrs
Raghava
Haribol, Raghava prabhu,,,,,thanks for the encouragement.
Dear Raghava prabhu, the explanations given on this site (bbtedit.com) in my opinion are highly misleading and lack any credibility.
I understand why you feel that way. It’s not any endorsement from my side either – just their own explanation. Frankly, as mentioned, I am not entirely sure why we got on this topic, since this post was all about the chanting of the holy name….
Yes, Raghava prabhu, with all due respect to Sripad BV Nemi Maharaja my apologies for this departure from the topic so expertly enunciated by him but I did feel strongly that the opinion expressed by “anonymous” warranted a reply.
(I had previous to this, typed a rather lengthy reply to Maharaja’s inspiring post only to find that it vanished from my computer screen and I have not had the time to redo it.)
Thanks Sudarsana ji, yes it needed to be addressed.
Glad to see ISKCON is finally re-editing BBT books. Otherwise NOD made it appear that Srila Swami Maharaja did not know Sanskrit or siddhanta. Surely he would not intentionally want his disciples to think that raganuga bhakti was the same as ragatmika, nor would he want the larger community of Vaishnavas to think he did not understand siddhanta.
Almost every ISKCON devottee I’ve ever met had this siddhanta wrong and was very confused, including “gurus”, so it is good that they are finally corrrecting that.
If it could have been done earlier it would have saved a lot of hurt and misunderstanding.
Hari, bol:
On this topic of mistakes and book editing, it brings to mind the following quote from Srila Prabhupada’s last paragraph in his preface to the first canto, part one of the SrimadBhagavatam:…
“I must admit my frailties in presenting SrimadBhagavatam, but still I am hopeful of its good reception by the thinkers and leaders of society on the strength of the following statement of SrimadBhagavatam (1.5.11)…”On the other hand that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame,form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant for bringing about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. SUCH TRANSCENDENTAL LITERATURE, EVEN THOUGH IRREGULARLY COMPOSED, IS HEARD , SUNG, AND ACCEPTED BY PURIFIED MEN WHO ARE THOROUGHLY HONEST..”
Srila Prabhupada cannot be held at fault, for those who have real love for him, regardless of any mistakes.
“Where love is thick,,,faults are thin.”
“Where faults are thick,,,love is thin.”
Let’s keep in mind that Srila Prabhupada knew, the quality, character, ability and capacity of those he engaged in his publishing work. “Frailties”.. and “irregularly composed”.. are words used by Srila Prabhupada that indicate to me, that every endeavor is covered by some sort of fault. But that does not take away the love of his disciples, when they read their master’s books.
If Krsna himself accepted the “Banana peel”, from Vidura’s wife and started to eat it, when she threw the banana down and in her confusion of love, offered Krsna the peel,,,,,,,,,then what to speak of Srila Prabhpada, who even appreciated the roll of toilet paper, brought in as a donation by a drunk man.
Srila Prabhupada was appreciative of the service of his disciples, even if it was covered by fault. I choose to see my master’s original books as masterpiecies. If Krsna should see that I need further direction, then Srila Gurudeva’s books are there to compliment true understanding. And is there anyone who can say, that in printing, in proofreading, in translation even Srila Gurudeva’s books that there will be no fault????
Remember the Brahmin that was crying, trying to read Bhagavadgita, as instructed by his Spiritual Master, although the Brahmin was illiterate? Just his “attempt to understand,” and the sincerity of his heart, coupled with his hopelessness falling as tears, qualified him to get the response from Lord Caitanya,,,,that: “You are the real understander of the Bhagavadgita”
What does that tell us? Sure we can try to perfectly do things in this world,,,,,but this world is based on imperfection, everything covered by some sort of fault.
If flies swarm to stool, and swan’s gather at crystal clear ponds, seeking milk not visible to the common eye of man….why not we also try to see beyond mistakes, and appreciate instead the loving labor of his disciples limited qualities at the time of the books publication.
The glory of Srila Prabhupada is his own humility, as he himself admits to :..”my frailties in presenting SrimadBhagavatam…..I am hopeful of its good reception..”
I fall down at the lotus feet of my gurudeva, and his transcendental SrimadBhagavatam.
yrs. Pracetana dasi
Thanks for your very insightful comment here.
““Unless one is an eternally liberated soul, one cannot attain the platform of spontaneous love (raganuga bhakti) without first going through all the stages of regulated practice (vaidhi bhakti)”
Where is this qoute from? Raganuga bhakti is not “spontaneous love”. It is a sadhana. Sadhana is not for liberated souls, it is for us.
Vaidhi bhakti and raganuga bhakti are 2 separate sadhanas from the beginning. This is all explained clearly in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu.
OK, here is what I’ve heard.
In the early days when Srila Prabhupada wanted to get many books published, he engaged his new disciples who were not as conversant with the Gaudiya Vaisnava philosphy and as such the word “spontaneous love (raganuga bhakti)” were used, where actually Srila Prabhupada used the term “ragatmika bhakti”. If you take the same quote and replace raganuga with ragatmika, it makes perfect sense.
I totally agree with you that “Vaidhi bhakti and raganuga bhakti are 2 separate sadhanas from the beginning.” It’s the ultimate objective and motivation of that sadhana which makes it either vaidhi or raganuga.
Thanks for this, Yrs
Raghava
BBT books then need to be re-edited. And we need to stop qouting them when they are wrong, or else edit the qoutes we use in the event they are wrong.
No need to keep perpetuating the same mistakes.
This is a highly contentious issue as it is generally considered an affront to ANY author for others to change or “re-edit” his (or her) work after it has been proofread and given the OK to print by the author himself. In my opinion not a single word should have been changed in any of (our) Srila Prabhupada’s wonderful books and also non of the pictures either.
The (thousands) of changes made to Srila Prabhupada’s books is in my opinion highly offensive and arrogant.
Constantine and Justinian (and a succession of other fools) did the same thing to the Holy Bible so that what remains is just a “bastardization” of the true document.
Such “mistakes” are like spots on the moon. In my humble opinion an “addendum” (as a separate document, written by/or approved by the present Acharya ) is the only way to clear up any misunderstanding.
You can see some of the explanations for this on http://bbtedit.com/node/278
I am a little lost however in understanding how this fits the topic of this post, “Why Not Just Chant Hare Krishna?”
Dear Annonymous, It is probably a good idea to remain, “annonymous”…if you are going to say, “we need to stop quoting (Srila Prabhupada’s Books), when they are wrong”!!! We will not say, what we would to do you….because it will not be published!
Have we had “the pleasure”, to meet you? Maybe someone who knows the siddhanta, could put in parenthesis, in all of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta’s Books, the “correct” Sanskrit expression….if in fact, His “expressions” are not concurrent with “Tattva”.
The quote (in question), from Srila Bhaktisiddanta, that we quoted, is on “page 37″, from the book, “The Life & precepts of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. (An article on this subject, entitled “Alekya” also appeared in Gauriya, vol. 13, No 41)
I love these forums and I think that Ragava das, is doing a magnificent job, in keeping all the subject matter in perspective, and to the essential subject matter, that Maharaja made in His wonderful essay. “Just Chant Hare Krishna”. There is only “one rule”!!! In vaidhi bhakti, raganuga bhakti, ragamika marga…”Always remember Krishna…and never forget Him”.
I really appreciate the sadhu sanga, that I receive from this forum and the different perspectives, of such “knowledgeable devotees”, that can be found on BtB News. Please do not ever make the offense, to mitigate, or crititize Srila Prabhupada’s books. They are perfect, written by a perfected soul, while in samadhi.
I am still upset, by a remark of a devotee, who I gave to Srila Gurudeva. After His initiation, He said, “He didn’t like like Srila Prabhupada, because HDG, didn’t like “scientist” (and His Father was a scientist)??? My prayer is that HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta, is never “diminished” in any trivial way!
I pray to all the Vaisnavas to please forgive my offensive nature and that by your mercy I can continuously chant this , “madurya Nama” and somehow pray, that Gurudeva will not reject me, “The Most Fallen”.
All Glories to Guru & Gauranga
Hare Krsna, Maharaja
Pranams, just wanted to say that this present Full Moon Lunar Eclipse, has a lot to do with some of the intense feelings of late.
But even though Rahu tries to swallow the Moon, the Moon eventually re- appears in all it’s glory. All glories to Srila Prabhupada, the spiritual pioneer who created for us a house, in which the whole world can live………..
Haribol Anirudha prabhu, and all
Just to inform you that Yes! the Caitanya Siksamrita is currently being translated and edited by Sripad Damodara and Tridandi Maharajas.
Yrs
Raghava
Haribol, and thankyou for sharing . I will look forward to getting a copy of ” Caitanya Siksamrita”. That is good news.
Dandavts, Maharaj and all devotees,
Of course not only devotees but non devotees are always looking for good social and comunications skills.
No doubt this is very necessary but very hard to get it.
It is not just one few days workshop that will do the miracle.
Some very expert persons in social and communication skills can help to reconcile conflicts bettween parties, this is being using by time immemorial in human society.
Maybe devotee are some proud that they can solve everything chanting.
This is not true.
Some conflicts may need outside help, but still it is not sure it will solve the situation.
We are badha jivas, Srila Gurudeva is a Nitya sidha, we can see how in his presence everything becomes sweet, even enemies ,, become some kind soft in his presence.
this is not social skill this is freedon from all kinds of anarthas.
We have to many anarthas, some are to deep roooted to be easily uoroot . And we have to understand that 20 years chanting is not garantee to become happy for ever, we are in the process and in the crucial point of this process is the association, associated with the shuda bhakta our effort in bhakti will always give more fast result, without this assotion we maybe instead of grow our bhkti lata with our chant will make our anarthas to become more strong.
We have to be very careful with this attempt to have more social skills,
1. we cant develop duplicity for the sake of comunication skill, politicians are full of communications skills but those communications skilss are nothing more than duplicity and deceit, . Srila Gurudeva teachings are against this.
2. we have to understand that needs two hands to clap, as Srila Gurudeva always tell us. even with the best social and comunication skills if one party dont want to cooperate than is useless.
I dont know the history of Nami Mhj family life, but our Karma are very strong waves in our life and something even with the best social and comunication skills are bond to happens no matter our efforts.
But surely, with careful aproach and understand the limitation of it, try to learn to have comunication skills with honesty will do some good in our life.
But we should put those things in the proper pespective and try our best to get more association of the king of social skills, Srila Gurudeva.
He is the king of all comunicators, but when comes to speack the truth he will spaeack even if this created enemies and war.
But he can do that, we must to learn to not complain and not criticise first . This will bring the blessing of the pure Vaisnavas in our life and in this way we may aquire more adhikara to become shuda bhaktas, and when this condition will come we will attain the real perfection in comunication skills.
But I bown down to Maharaj and fully agree with him, also I may say that some devotees to try to have more capacity in deal with the world have to go to psichiatrist and get some medicine also, take vantage that nowadays psichiatric understand of our brain functions are ver advance.
sorry for the bad english writing.
your Mukundananda das dasanudas
Hare Krishna !
My humble obeisances to Sri Sri Radha Krishna and to all Vaishnavs.
Dear Prabhu !
I am very gratefull for your words and I identifie with tham completely. I have been colaborating and asociating with devotees for about 7 yers by now, also, I have been chanting and doing everyday service in ISCKON Malaga temple.
And I could see the same psychological carencies, sorry to say so, when it comes to almost each and every devotee. They might be very learned when it comes to Hari katha and scriptures, but on practical and emotional inteligence level they normally seem to lack a lot.
Lately I have been studying a lot of psychology and I feel devotees definitly need and deserve to recieve some sort of good psychological personal training, not only to be able to distribute books (bhakta courses), but also to be able to live in and relate to the world around tham positive, human, gratefull and joyfull way. To know consciously their life purposes and goals, to know thamselvs, to know their standards and boundaries… And expres all of this positive and asertive way, no matter where, when, or with whome they might relationate with. To distribute Krishna consciousness such a way so people in general would love to become devotees too. At the end of the day, everybody is Krishna s servant, one way or another.
Also, I had an idea.. there are so so many TV channels with a lot of nonsense going on.. but… why devotees dont have in every country a TV channel? Now I live in place where I did not find any devotees so far and your letters are practically only contact I have with devotee world. It would be great to be able to put the TV on and listen to bhakta courses, preachings, devotional music, Hari kathas..
Your imperfect servant,
Denisa
Dandavats Pranams Maharajas , Prabhus , Diddis
So getting back to the question :- “why not just Chant Hare Krishna ?”
So besides chanting Hare Krishna for our own salvation why not Propagate the Chanting of Hare Krishna in an organised and systematic manner until Hare Krishna is constantly Chanted in every town and village in the whole world ?. Wouldn’t that be more pleasing to Krishna than just selfishly drinking the nectar of the Holy Name and not sharing it ?
Best case scenario is if by divine inspiration we all just spontaneously serve in beautiful symmetrically coordinated mandalas of flowing love and devotion singing constantly the prema nama .
But failing that we might just have to follow some corporate model and have meetings and discussions and draw up plans . What ever it takes ,because at the time of death when they ask us why we didnt help propagate the sankitan movement “not liking the organisational structure ” is going to sound a pretty lame excuse .
Ha Gouranga!!
Great response Mathuranath ji.
Let’s think of how the wonderful kirtan parties were organized in the time of Mahaprabhu during Ratha-Yatra.
There was a lot of organizing and delegation required, which makes one the leader and the others a follower, but without the abhiman that “I am a leader or I am follower“, etc. The only identity is that of a humble servant of Sri Caitanya.
From the lifetime of Sacinandan Gaura-Hari we can see that he appeared for internal as well as external reasons. We may translate this into our own lives, as you hinted, to meaning 1) internally, the development of our own bhajan-sadhana and 2) externally, the spreading of Mahaprabhu’s message and “embrace new ways of extending that reach and making sure that everyone on this planet gets the same chance to perfect their lives as we were given:……. Think about it.
Haribol – humbly!
Raghava
Dear Prabhu
Your point is essential !
I would like just to developp a little on it.
First, which side comes first ? The internal side, because it gives the impetus and reason to the external side. Srila Gaura Govinda Swami was telling to the preachers in the Years ninety “You belong to the company which supply water to everyone but you are unable to drink one single drop.” He was pointing the defect.
As you say the abhiman to be a simple servant, whatever our position might be, is essential. And that comes by chanting first and having some tangible results, in order to be able to develop that consciousness.
Therefore the management and organization should be adjusted according to the real level of spiritual advancement of those voluntary and not to the guna-karma and ambition of some which produce those disharmony.
Coming to this point we once again face the basic problem of adhikar which is that kanistha adhikari are unable to properly recognize how to deal with the people in general what to speak of the devotees. Which make them very difficult to accept leadership even from more advanced devotes.
So the problem is basically spiritual that to get real spiritual society it must be based on real spiritually situated jiva. This can only be obtained by the combine mercy of Guru, Gauranga and Nam…. and time + practice+ sincere desire.
This ideal spiritual society to which you are pointing by giving the example of that of Mahaprabhu’s time is possible but the transformation is still on his way, so the patience is our daily food.
your servant Vrindavan Vihari das
Haribol, Raghava prabhu,
Your wonderful idea, of consulting and taking advice from the Caitanya
Charitamrta is timely. We can see how all the devotees in these
pastimes worked together, had faith in each other, treated each other
with love and respect, and honor. They cooperated, extending their
services to one another. It was based on love. It was based on
facilitating each other. Each devotee was expert in something, and
that something was offered up in the service of Mahaprabhu, and his
associates. This is what happened in the mission of Srila Prabhupada
when he first came to the west. People were inspired by his purity,
his kindness, his knowledge, his wisdom, his compassion, his insight,
and according to their ability devotees gave freely to Srila
Prabhupada, out of their love for him, whatever service, money, talent
, and time they had. With love,,,,,,,,,,even if at first there is no
organized plan,,,,,,it all happens automatically, it comes together
due to love…………………I saw that happen in Prabhupada’s
mission, I was part of it and it was very sweet. Sorry to say when I
enter an Iskcon temple now, I don’t feel it anymore, although there is
so much organization, so many meetings, so many resolutions, so many
rules and regulations……………Lets not forget the root
………..unconditional pure love of God.
Dear Mathuranath
dandavat pranams
Just a little commentary.
You say
“because at the time of death when they ask us why we didnt help propagate the sankitan movement “not liking the organisational structure ” is going to sound a pretty lame excuse .”
Maybe am wrong but am not really sure that it will be the main question you will be asked.
That point of view sounds relly to much implicated in material organisation and social recognition.
The main question seems to me to be more “where is your prema ??”
Because if we develop prema every things will follows, either participate in a preaching organisation or create a new branche or whatever.
And the main expectation of all our Parampara is that we must have this prema.
So it seems to me that nobody should prepare excuse for the time of death because none will do. Only tears will !!
Your servant.. Vrindavan Vihari das
Dandavats, in this age the only way for anyone to get Prema is by performing and propagating the sankirtan jugna .So “where is your prema?” ,why didnt you do the sankirtan Jagna to get preme ? pretty much the same question.Radhe Radhe !!
Hare Krishna
This point maybe clarified by more advanced devotee than me but my comprehension is that you cannot do real sankirtan unless you have at least sambhanda, the entrance to prema. Because as Srila Gaura Govinda Swami was telling the meaning of sankirtan is not congregationnal chanting of the holy name like a bunch of sheep bleating out together, but kirtan with “san” which mean sambhanda. The result is that your kirtan must be done first in the association of one who has minimum sambhanda. This is first step. Then yourself getting that sambhanda you can open your way to prema and sankirtan giving other a chance to get something.
It is true that by doing real sankirtant you walk toward developping prema but no sankirtan can be done without a glimpse of prema otherwise it is empty or like Srila Gaura Govinda Swami was telling “blank bullet”.
As long as the nature of your kirtan is such you can only do sankirtant in the presence of real devotee which mean they are doing it, not you.
Therefore the main question is :
Where is your prema from which every thing will follow including sankirtan ?
Your servant Vrindavan Vihari das
After some thinking please allow me to add another reply.
Hare Krishna
If sankirtan give prema that means sankirtant is master over prema. Then If it so, better to serve the master sankirtan than its servant prema. But if we serve sankirtan for it-self where is the meaning? …
Like in madhurya kadambhini it is said that bhakti does not depend on anything. She is totally independent. No jnana, no tapasya, nothing can rule over her.
Same for prema because prema is summum of bhakti. Therefore if sankirtan gives prema that mean it is itself prema. Therefore youn can’t do sankirtan putting aside prema for a further deal.
Sankirtan and prema are interrelated because sankirtan is the external manifestation of prema.
But sometimes we found something which has the same color the same sound (apparently) but not the same taste and it is called by the same name sankirtan. And that “sankirtan” is master over prema and it promise prema for an unknown futur!!What a surprise!!
The conclusion seems very simple some were pretending doing sankirtan but where is their prema ?
Therefore at the time of death the main question will remain where is your prema?
If we have no prema and we want to execute sankirtan that mean a sat guru is giving order to do it and we are doing it on the base of our love for him. Not out of duty, not out of any other reason only love for our priya Guru. No other reason is acceptable and that one is as good as prema. From that motivation prema will arise. Any other motivation will result in politics, communication skills independent from bhakti and duplicity.
Your servant Vrindavan Vihari das
Golokera prema dhan, hari nama sankirtana!From my subprime memory I think this means the wealth of prema from Goloka is contained within the hari Nama Sankirtana.
harer nama harer nama – harer namaiva kevalam – kalau nasty eva nasty eva – nasty eva gatir anyatha
“In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way.”
(Brhan-naradiya Purana)
” Caitanya Mahäprabhu said that
påthivéte äche yata nagarädi-gräma
sarvatra pracära haibe mora näma
That is His prediction, that “As many towns and villages are there on the surface of the globe, everywhere, this message of Hare Kåñëa mantra and Lord Caitanya’s name will be there.”
You just quote it
Golokera prema dhana. It is the tresur of Prema from Golok
It does not belong to this material world therefore how can one touch it and spread it cutting from its root prema… Prema is its very nature…
Under the name of sankirtan, Am i spreading this golokera prema dhan ? Or something else like the mayavadi are doing chanting also “nam” ?
How can i know the difference unless i have some real taste and certainly you have.
Your servant Vrindavan Vihari das
By serving , satisfying and pleasing a premibhakta they may give us prema.
They have come down from Goloka to give prema .While they are in this world we often see they are engaged [externally] in propagating the Sri Krishna Sankirtan Yjugna inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabu .If we will assist them in that and satisfy and please them they may benadict us with prema bhakti .
At those times when it is not possible to hear lila katar from their lotus lips why not engage in assisting them propagate the nama sankirtan?Only in conjunction with sankirtan can we do lila smaranam in this age .
Radhe Radhe !!
Haribol,,,,so thankful for the refreshing topic of the Holy Name. In the early days of Iskcon, we couldn’t help but float on the waves of prema. Everyone was caught up in it’s magic, and it spread like wild fire. Your discussions here reminded me of those days.
From Prabhupada purport CC adi lila
People generally cannot understand the actual meaning of chanting and dancing. Describing the Gosvamis, Sri Srinivasa Acarya stated, krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau: not only did Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His associates demonstrate this chanting and dancing, but the six Gosvamis also followed in the next generation. The present Krsna consciousness movement follows the same principle, and therefore simply by chanting and dancing we have received good responses all over the world. It is to be understood, however, that this chanting and dancing do not belong to this material world. They are actually transcendental activities, for the more one engages in chanting and dancing, the more he can taste the nectar of transcendental love of Godhead.
ddvats all
despite my words is always useless and my thought is very ‘low class’ i became inspired to say some thing about this.
i think Maharaj told a very important point, not related to bhakti or spiritual things, but about the primary lessons for childrens. Education, morality and how to live peacefull in this world.
Do all think that is possible to be a devotee with out this primary qualities of one good human being? As Maharaj told, we are hearing advanced hari kathas , but we are not seeing the influendy of them in our lives, why?? Because Supreme Lord himself have told. “Who surrender to me, is very dear to everyone.” So, it indicate that devotee lives with great harmony with all, animals, trees, ‘karmis’, devotees etc.. he is one who is dear to everyone.
i think its very important to know how to live in this world, respecting everyone, and never critizicing the new society, even knowing what they think and do.
we see in the live of our Param Gurudev, how he used to live peacefully with all and had good relation with all. We see the ideal caracter of our Parampara and by that character , they are now worshipable by the 3 worlds.
i was discussing this with Sagar Maharaj and we came to the conclusion, its not a quality of devotees, but a matter of education, character and sincerity. Basics principals of a ‘good man’.
also, when we enter in ‘devotees’ relations, we know its very dificult thing, but for me by the words of our Madhava Maharaja and Bhakti Vinoda Thakur, the primary reason of complain between devotees, is ‘envy’, and by the words of Gour Govinda M. ‘a vaishnava society full of envy is worst than materialist society.
Thankyou for your thoughts Baladeva prabhu.
There are some nice web sites, Indian in origin, that provide stories from the Purana’s about the “Basic principals of a good man”. The people of India, wishing to preserve their culture for their children, have made web sites that describe Varnashram, and roles of man and woman, of how to be a good husband, of how to be a good wife, or how to help our children retain their spiritual roots, and how to develop good qualities of character.
These sites have preserved the ethics, and proper behavior of Indian culture. Again if you can overlook, the different view they have of what is their ultimate goal, you can gain a lot of practical wisdom, on how to live a devotional lifestyle by coming to the plateform of goodness.
Many web sites on Ayurveda, are also helpful in educating us:..” how to come to the plateform of goodness”, in our daily habits, daily routine, daily schedule, and in dealing with things like anger, attachment, addictions etc.
There are many rules and regulations in the Manu Samhita of how we should behave on a daily basis with others, according to our particular varna and ashram.
From reading these Indian sites, I found that although not perfect perhaps in their understanding of the real goal of life, as presented by our Srila Gurudeva,,,,still these Indian sites give much information in the practical, down to earth, vedic culture, of daily living.
If you are interested I can give you a list of sites I have found.
yes, i think its very important, i think Gurudev is giving the high thing, the sweetness of Radha Krishna passtimes, so that we can develop greed to that prem, but how will we get that prem? as u told, first we have to go to sattva-guna before transcend the material qualities, so rules, and moral code are usefull for us, who are very far from trancendental things. I remember when Gurudev told that only the disciples of Swami Maharaj, who did enter in the school of Gour Govinda maharaj would understand him, pehaps we have to go back to that instructions so that we can follow properly the high teachings of our most reverend Guru maharaj.
thanks, yes, i want the sites, i have a child also and want to know more about education on vedic style.
Haribol Baladeva,
The sites that proved helpful for me and my family are listed below. I found articles, histories, and practical advice, Ayurvedic principles, that enhance our path of Bhakti.
http://www.vedanet.com
drsvoboda.com
http://www.esamskriti.com
hinduism.about.com
veda.wikidot.com
kanaiyyadesh.wordpress.com
If we remember the principle of finding the gold from even an unclean place, then these sites although not perfect from the perspective of pure bhakti, have a lot of practical advice that can help us in our daily lives.
thanks didi, will see now, may be they are perfect for those aspire one day understand what is pure bhakti.
Haribol
thanks didi for a valid point here. the vedic culture takes us to bhakti and has various methods for various people.
Thakur Bhakti Vinod has written a very good book named “Chaitanya Shikshamrta” which is available in Hindi (can be downloaded from purebhakti.com). This book gives a step by step process based on teachings from vedas, to become a good human being and to become a bhakta. I do not know if it has been translated in English.
This book gives essence of the vedic culture and must be read by all (beginners as well as experts). Good for kids too.
Hari Bolo Pracetana Diddi ,very interesting post .I was wondering if in the course of your research into the vedic culture whether you came across the vedic process for holding meetings ?
It seems difficult in my experience for westerner devotees to hold successfulness meetings for from 15-50 devotees .And if we cant even hold a peaceful,inclusive and harmonious meetings then creating a unified sanga, cooperatively working together for the spreading of Srila Gurudevas superlative moods and teachings presents a heroic challenge .[Which I guess is where the vedic epics come in .Great maharatis doing things single handedly against all odds ].
Any insight into the Vedic decision making process on a village/community level would be extremely useful if anyone out there has such knowledge.
Radhe Radhe !!
Haribol, Mathuranatha das, pranams
We can get insight, and guidance from our Indian born godbrothers and godsisters in this regard, who still have knowledge of their roots of Indian culture.
Before the English influence in India, which was designed to destroy Sanatan Dharma, the people in the Villages had their system of holding meetings, gatherings, etc. with the purpose of the good of the members of the Village in mind. Even in the Krsna Story, when Kaliya was disturbing Krsna’s Village, and cows were dying, and the poison of the river Jamuna was creating havoc, …..what was the established culture or procedure set up at that time?
Nanda Baba was head of his community because he was trusted, loved and respected by all. He had his group of advisors and they met to discuss the problem of Kaliya.
Ancient Vedic Puranas, sastra’s etc. have knowledge of all practical aspects of life, from what to eat to be healthy,…what the roles , behaviors, and duties are for everyone in a society, also martial arts, music, dance, cooking, you name it…it’s there.
So there were rules governing how to hold a meeting to discuss, the smooth functioning of society, village life, temple management etc.
Our Guruvarga have given us the “Root of Bhakti”, Krsna Consciousness, Devotional Service. Because without that we have nothing. No proper social life, or even the proper understanding of going to the bathroom. From that root, comes all the other aspects of practical life, which forms the tree of knowledge by which we can live in this world, in harmony with God’s purpose.
That was the natural function of the different branches of Vedic Knowledge. This practical knowledge, connected to Krsna, was the support of true Bhakti. If Bhakti is the precious jewel, then the Varnashram system, which includes “how to hold meetings”,, is the golden setting in which the jewel of Bhakti is set, and then worn on the body for all to see and appreciate.
Research for those who are inclined, would be a great service, as it seems it is also necessary for us to know how to develop a devotional community, locally and internationally.
Each person born in this world, whether they know it or not, has either the tendency of a Brahmin, Ksatriya, Vaisya or Sudra. Our natural tendencies can be utilized in offering service to our famiy, our spiritual community, our sangha. Many of us have mixed tendencies, and can use the one quality that is predominate to serve Krsna with. Anything connected to Krsna becomes spiritual. Arjuna used his military talent in serving the Lord.
So those devotees who are naturally gifted in different departments of knowledge can utilize their experience for the good of all, by sharing what they know, or what they are good at doing. It really is such a natural process. We just have to be open and trusting of each other,… that yes, we want to serve each other by our natural tendencies. So without being envious of each other’s talents, we can work together.
So amongst our spiritual sangha, we have leaders, both brahminical, and ksatriya oriented. We have vaisyas, who are expert at knowing how to care for cows, or grow food, or do business. We have sudras who take joy in serving others and facilitating others rather than taking leadership roles.
It’s all good. It’s all complimentary. All the parts of the body work together in harmony. So with community. A spiritual community or Daivi Varnashram, is already naturally there. It is just covered over, by our ignorance and malpractice. Although Ramanada Raya finally gave the most importance to “Pure Bhakti”, which does not depend on Varnashram, still when you hear Ramananda speak about the different support systems of Bhakti, he does not deny their value. He just shows us the different gradations or steps towards Bhakti. Lord Caitanya always said he wanted more, more. That more was Pure Bhakti of course, but isn’t this like rasa? Madhurya rasa is all inclusive of all other rasa’s, but still no one can deny, the existence, importance and function of all other lower rasas. There needs to be cowherd boys, cows, grass, friends and servants. This variety enhances Krsna’s pleasure. Yet his highest pleasure is the service of Srimati Radhika.
So with the Varnashram system, it’s not pure bhakti, but it can be useful.
We have to remember what a low, ignorant, sinful and inauspicious place we are coming from. We have been given the highest Pure Bhakti, …but on which rung of this ladder are we standing? Coming just to the plateform of goodness is extremely difficult for some, what to speak of us maintaining steadyness in our rounds, in our 4 regulative principles, in rising early for mangal arotik.
So if we are honest with ourselves, and look within , introspect, see our own level of fault and weakness, then we should chant Hare Krsna, and gradually raise our character to what is expected of us.
The Varnashram system is the crutch, the support, or structure that can help spread Pure Bhakti. Pure Bhakti does not depend on it,,,,,,that is important to understand,,,,,but Varnashram is an organizational tool, that can build a spiritual community, which then can spread Bhakti effectively. Srila Prabhupada expressed many times his desire to establish Daivi Varnashram. He must have seen the necessity of it, otherwise why would he want to establish it?
So I have heard that 5 people are necessary to hold and discuss meetings. This can be varified by research into sastra, asking Srila Gurudeva, or other respected Vaisnavas.
In all circumstances, Guru, Sastra and Sadhu should be consulted and respected. Krsna has given us everything we need to form a thriving spiritual community, locally and internationally. Like Syamarani once told me,,,,the sastras contain the hidden jewel of knowledge. We just have to dig deep to find it.
Gaura preme anandi !
Dear Mathuranatha prabhu,
Dandavats. Please forgive me if I’m suggesting the obvious, but Jaiva Dharma has excellent examples of how to hold sucessful meetings on a village level. Not only chap. 8 Nitya Dharma & Vaisnava Behavior, but at least up to chap. 25 (I’ve not gone beyond this).
Hare Krsna.
The audio Chapters are available from http://www.japaretreats.com/2010/10/jaiva-dharma-spoken-audio-files/
Haribol, Gita dasi,
I am going to try to make time today to read the 8th chapter of Jaiva Dharma as you suggested. Thanks for your input……….
sorry for the repetition. bad move !!
Hare Krishna ! Nemi Maharaj, Dadavats Pranams,
above articel i find it the best so far anything i come across the Vaishnava Comunity. This is realy encoreging and live safely in this material world and still serve Sri Krishna nicely . I love to read again more of this highly Intelectual understanding since time of Srila Prabhupad and now with Srila Gurudeve. We are fortunate to have your Sanga like this.—Ramatirtha–LONDON.
Dear Maharaja vaishnvas and vaishnavis
Dandavat pranam to all
Just a few words being inspired by this text.
“For one who is practising bhakti all the qualities of the devatas becomes manifested in him naturally without any separate endeavors”. All of you may know this particular verse.
Consequently, if we have some difficulties to relate with each other, the temporary solution may reside in developping those skills separatly. But the main goal seems to be missed or postponed and the right conclusion, that in spite of having “initiation and saddhu sanga” we are not really into bhakti, is avoided.
So if the solution to develop skills of communication and good behavior is adopted (and that can help) it should be in the spirit of that we still have no “rag” like in the 2nd verse of siksastakam.
nämnäm akäri bahudhä nija-sarva-çaktis
taträrpitä niyamitaù smaraëe na kälaù
etädåçé tava kåpä bhagavan mamäpi
durdaivam édåçam ihäjani nänurägaù
Being conscious that we are not true devotees we may adopt the behavior suitable to have correct social dealings which any materialist is doing.
Concerning the spiritual side we should add to this simple faculty of adaptation a deep meditation on the fact that all shaktis are in Nam.
If we would really be conscious about this we would not have any problems either in relation field or any other field.
Your servant vrindavan vihari das
For one who chants the holy name. Namaparadis may not develop much at all, at least for a long, long time.
My understanding of the purpose of Maharaja’s programme is to assist in dealing with each other and to develop practices akin to Vaisnava ettiquette whilst we are still in the namaparadha stage, and how to maximise our comminity efforts to spread krsna consciousness PRIOR to developing all good qualities, for our own sake and for the sake of the suffering souls of kali yuga.
ys
tkd
Dear Maharaja vaishnvas and vaishnavis
Dandavat pranam to all
Just a few words being inspired by this text.
“For one who is practising bhakti all the qualities of the devatas becomes manifested in him naturally without any separate endeavors”. All of you may know this particular verse.
Consequently, if we have some difficulties to relate with each other, the temporary solution may reside in developping those skills separatly. But the main goal seems to be missed or postponed and the right conclusion, that in spite of having “initiation and saddhu sanga” we are not really into bhakti, is avoided.
So if the solution to develop skills of communication and good behavior is adopted (and that can help) it should be in the spirit of that we still have no “rag” like in the 2nd verse of siksastakam.
nämnäm akäri bahudhä nija-sarva-çaktis
taträrpitä niyamitaù smaraëe na kälaù
etädåçé tava kåpä bhagavan mamäpi
durdaivam édåçam ihäjani nänurägaù
Being conscious that we are not true devotees we may adopt the behavior suitable to have correct social dealings which any materialist is doing.
Concerning the spiritual side we should add to this simple faculty of adaptation a deep meditation on the fact that all shaktis are in Nam.
If we would really be conscious about this we would not have any problems either in relation field or any other field.
Your servant vrindavan vihari das
Dear Maharaja vaishnvas and vaishnavis
Dandavat pranam to all
Just a few words being inspired by this text.
“For one who is practising bhakti all the qualities of the devatas becomes manifested in him naturally without any separate endeavors”. All of you may know this particular verse.
Consequently, if we have some difficulties to relate with each other, the temporary solution may reside in developping those skills separatly. But the main goal seems to be missed or postponed and the right conclusion, that in spite of having “initiation and saddhu sanga” we are not really into bhakti, is avoided.
So if the solution to develop skills of communication and good behavior is adopted (and that can help) it should be in the spirit of that we still have no “rag” like in the 2nd verse of siksastakam.
nämnäm akäri bahudhä nija-sarva-çaktis
taträrpitä niyamitaù smaraëe na kälaù
etädåçé tava kåpä bhagavan mamäpi
durdaivam édåçam ihäjani nänurägaù
Being conscious that we are not true devotees we may adopt the behavior suitable to have correct social dealings which any materialist is doing.
Concerning the spiritual side we should add to this simple faculty of adaptation a deep meditation on the fact that all shaktis are in Nam.
If we would really be conscious about this we would not have any problems either in relation field or any other field.
Your servant vrindavan vihari dasn
This comment is not related to the above article, but a comment on the website.
The first picture that we see when entering the website is Syamarani, surely it would be more appropriate to see a picture of Srila Gurudeva first!!
Thanks for you r comment. I am not sure where you are looking, but if I open the website, I first see a picture of our Gurudeva on the top left corner (which is where most people in the West put their eyes first).
Yrs
Raghava
Thank you maharaj. These are some pretty compelling points.
Hi haribol Maharaja
I love what you say and wanted to leave a reply yesterday (but time ran short) when I noticed a volley going on between Maturanatha and Subol Krsna prabhus. Both were making valid points yet neither would concede the value of the other’s intelligence. Yes we do need to expand and we won’t do without chanting. Conceded.
I witnessed something similar at the AGM prior to our recent one wherein two opposing groups argued about similar things couched in differing ways.
When I was a small child my father raised hens and roosters for our table. Whenever he chopped off one’s head it would run around aimlessly on the lawn accompanied by the squeals of delight and peals of laughter my sisters and I.
Why I mention this is because this is how my yatra is. Srila Prabhupada said “A society without brahmins is like a body with no head.” So true.
My point here is that we need the leadership of those who exhibit brahminical qualities.
warv
tarunkrsnadas
PS Devotees from my yatra MAY appreciate my comments to this extent on my blog at: http://webtide.blogspot.com/
Dandavat Maharaja,
I agree 100 % what you said Maharaj,and I was very happy to read this small book called HARMONY a lecture of Gurudeva…. how to relate in our sanga with full respect of each other and how to develop the real humility in our level and real affection….
we should have more lecture about this topic…Why not having a bigger book like HARMONY !!!!!
hare krsna !!!
the name of the book is “Harmony – A Preview” as indicated in the introduction, it is the preview to the “big book” you mention. Not sure when it should be available but devotees are working hard to make it happen.
Haribol.
Yrs
Raghava
I agree with you 100%.
I feel that We need a strong good temple that welcomes new jivas and nurishes jivas that have taken shelter of Srila Gurudeva here in America. I would like to help in some way although I am not very advanced.
Dandavat Pranamas.
I agree 100% Janardan Prabhu ,we need a strong good temples that welcomes new jivas and nurishes jivas all around the world.Radhe Radhe !!
Last paragraph, second last line should read as—-” if we do not give up” Sorry!
Radhe Radhe
Radhe Radhe… I gotten this far in the, “Leave a Reply” section… I have to say, or humbly ask:
#1) How do you, “give up”??? Is there, a 12-step program, for recovering devotees?
#2) Why fall down…”fall up”
Srila Gurudeva personally told me, “that I am the most fallen”!!!
Excellent article, by a “true scholar”. I know by personal experience that, Nemi Maharara, personally embodies, the principle of, “for one who is practicing bhakti all the qualities of the devatas become manifest in Him, without any separate endeavor”. I have had the privilege, to personally see this “transformation” take place in Him, in the course of His life.
The complaints I hear, about the issue of “community”, can be resolved, if we do not become, “cliquish”. Srila Gurudeva, is giving us, the “highest siddhanta”, and if we treat each other, like it is a social club, how can our practice be serious? “Unless one is an eternally liberated soul, one cannot attain the platform of spontaneous love (raganuga bhakti) without first going through all the stages of regulated practice (vaidhi bhakti)”
“The Math is the center of hari-kirtan, and hari-kirtan is life and consciousness.” Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada
Have a community, in the West, based on the principle of, “Just Chant Hare Krishna”. I beg to defer with you on this one point Maharaja. But, when a community has as it’s center, 24-hr. hari-kirtan, everything else will work! Devotees who take care of elderly infirmity devotees, the sick, the destitute…or serve those devotees who have the sukriti to, “just chant Hare Krishna”, will find that their lives become perfected. I have found out, by my own personal experience, that if you, “just chant Hare Krishna” (and have Gurudeva’s mercy), everything will be provided. We only need the facility (in the West), to be able to do our bhajan, and the community will grow around the strong root of the Holy Name.
Just Chant Hare Krishna!!! It Works!!!
Aspiring to serve the Vaisnava’s, Guru & Gauranga and just chant Hare Krishna.
The Most Fallen
Hare Krsna to all.
Our very own dear Srila Gurudev has shown and is still showing how we can chant Harinam and at the same time adjust to our environments and situations we are put in. Gurudev embraces all from all walks of life and listens and enourages even individuals and groups not practising Krsna consciousness and helps them, accordingly to their levels.
Right to this stage, Srila Gurudev accepts service and suggestions by doctors and well-wishers. It is us who make the difference among individuals. Yes, it is true we must associate with likeminded devotees but at the same time, there is no loss if we are attracted to some who may not be in the same line but have good moral values and principles.
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj has time and again stressed the need to rise to the platform of a good human being before becoming a devotee. So points raised by Nemi Maharaj is certainly commnedable as it will further help us in strengthening our sadhana and bhakti to Guru and Krsna.
Also views and comments raised by my fellow godbrothers and godsisters also show that all of us have different personalities and may or may not agree on points raised by anyone for that matter which includes me. So let us just focus on firstly finding out our strengths and weaknesses and work on it and if we need help along the way, go for it.
Whenever Srila Gurudev comes in contact with a new person, Gurudev always says these wonderful words—” I want to make your heart into a soft flower and offer it to Sri Sri RadhaKrsna.” So much of siddanta in Gurudev’s words and it means that our hearts are not as soft as the petals of a flower and has many impurities. Gurudev wants to help us in the process of making us eligible to attain Krsna Bhakti. We can be of any race and colour but our hearts should be one-pointed in serving Srila Gurudev and having full faith that Gurudev is always with us.
In our journey towards our goals, we may fall, get hurt but because our dear Gurudev has struggled so much and travelled all around to help us, I sincerely pray that we do not give up. All we need to do is to cry to our spiritual masters and sure enough, the right path and direction will definitely be shown to us. THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THIS. It may take a day or it may even take months or years. But if we give up, we will make it. Even 2 percent progress in the lifetime, there is no loss. Srila Gurudev loves us and will not forsake us at any point.
Radhe Radhe!
Dandavats Maharaj, everyone
I personally think “whatever works.” According to Saranagati principle we should reject what is unfavorable for our bhajan and embrace what is favorable, or not? Therefore, I should accept techniques that will improve the way my family acts or trys to live in KC, and improve aswell, the way the growing community of devotees interacts. It is also true for our body, mind and words.
Let’s face it, we devotees with some experience have witness or commited so many mistakes, errors that are not helping or respecting the mission and banner of Sri Gouranga Mahaprabhu. So, whatever it is that will make me, my kids and my good wife be truly better persons, thus facilitating our puting more energy in vaisnava seva, welcome, be it hata yoga, corporate world best practices, martial arts, computer science, organizational behaviour science, pilates, ecofarming, you name it.
best regards
Rupa Ragunath (Caracas)
agree with rupa raghunatha, i think to include activities like martial arts would help very much on the devotee´s character and discipline, myself was a jiu jitsu fighter and i know how it have helped me in my sadhana.
Hare Krsna BV Nemi Maharaja,
Thank you for your sharing and give me inspiration! And I like you mention: “Responsible devotees in our sanga are learning about effective relationship and community from people who do not yet practice bhakti.” and also “Srila Gurudeva told me personally not to look for title or position.” I will remember it and also practice bhakti yoga in practical life!
Yours servant,
Indumati
What do I want? I want to identify and share and be part of good practice in the highest sense. I want to find and share what works. I know that some devotees share the same aspiration, and I will be happy to cooperate with them in whatever way I can.
The sharing we are engaged in now is part of the process of finding and recognizing each other.
Dandavat-pranama. Thanks for this Maharaja. I’m on the same page.
I am certain everything can be solved by chanting and there is no other practice that is more elevated. But how do I get myself to chant?? (and I mean really chant: focused and consistently). How do I become tolerant and humble, not asking any respect from others and respecting everyone, like Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga instruct?…well that is a whole different story.
The first step always tends to be sadhu sanga, so please do let me know if you develop any of this further (workshops,articles, etc.)
Mohinidasi (Costa Rica)
All glories to the Vaisnavas,
Just some thoughts , after reading the different comments here. We have heard from our Gurudeva that Krsna Consciousness is “Natural” for the soul, and at first in our jaundiced position what is natural and healthy, tastes bitter and we don’t want to do it. From all the beautiful transcendental literatures we have received, there are so many instructions on the formula for a healthy spiritual life. We really have been given everything we need to progress on our spiritual path. We just need to encourage one another to remain on the path.
Whatever obstacles we may face, whatever problems that arise are due to our own lack of understanding, our own immaturity, our own shortcomings and faults. It takes real humility to see that. It takes real humility to admit that we have made mistakes. It takes real surrender, and real tears to beg the Lord for forgiveness for our offences, of hurting others. It takes real surrender to beg forgiveness from whoever we have hurt in our day to day dealings.
If we can come to the point of remembering that Krsna lives in the heart of everyone we come in contact with, then we will naturally be more sensitive to how we deal with one another. Isn’t humility the secret, of allowing us access to be able to have the desire, the strength, and determination to chant the Hare Krsna Mantra?
If we can benefit from one another’s experience, and hear how other devotees overcame their difficulties, through sharing their stories, even in this present facility of emailing our comments on this site,,,,,then such sharing, or “revealing one’s mind in confidence “,is one of the loving exchanges shared between devotees. We can gather advice, we can learn from each other, and benefit from each other’s experience. By practicing the loving exchanges, we can see how all of us are in the same boat, in the same sea.
The only caution I see from my experience is “Envy”. We have been advised by our Guruvarga to avoid envious persons. The poor envy the rich, the ugly envy the beautiful, the prostitute envies the chaste lady, ,,,in other words what we find lacking in ourselves, but see it in ‘someone else, either in their personality, family, standing or situation we envy in our conditioned state. That causes all kinds of problems individually, collectively, socially. Srila Prabhupada was asked about what to do about envy in the society of devotees, and Prabhupada said: “Chant Hare Krsna”.
So yes !!! Why not just chant Hare Krsna ? It all begins there and ends there. It is the light that shows us what to do, and what not to do. It is the light that illumines the mind to think in the right way. It is the light that takes away the darkness of anxiety within our emotional heart. Really whatever problem we have, if we approach the Holy Name with the problem, if we cry to Guru about our problem, if we seek for answers about our problem from the Bhagavatam, and if we pray for guidance, then we have been told from many scriptures that we will find the answer.
Knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given. I guess this outpouring is coming because I sense many devotees are having problems, and facing difficulties. Being one of them, I found my shelter in the process given by the spiritual master. We really have been given everything we need. We just need to take it up. Sometimes the mala feels like it weighs a thousand pounds, yet to someone else they have no problem in chanting. We can’t compare ourselves with others and become envious. We just have to start from where we are at.
I really appreciated Tridandi Maharaja’s little ebooklet on the japa retreat he is offering up as a service. It was very inspirational. This facility we have here on the web is really fantastic. All glories to all the devotees who are serving according to their talent, and capacity. It’s this cooperation that makes such a favorable atmosphere for us to associate, and benefit from each other.
Dandavats Maharaja, another very stimulating and relevant post . I especially like the point about us not being brought up in the Vedic culture . If we had grown up in a vedic village we would have learned how a village sized group of people interact in a practical and functional way ,and have done for thousands of years .
Our sangas around the world are on the size scale and demographics of a village . But generally we haven learned how to have a village meeting and make everyone feel heard , included and valued .Neither generally have we learned how to make group decisions that the group owns as a whole .
The same applies to division of labor and specialization .A village has potters , weavers , farmers ,a council of elders etc etc but functions as a cohesive whole .Generally as urbanized westerners we havent learned the basic human skills necessary to live in an affectionate ,effective and efficient village/sanga sized group ..
The western materialistic,technological culture has stunted our cultural,interactive and emotional growth at the stage of reptiles .We cant even cooperate like a pack or herd of mammals , what to speak of a village of humans .Even packs of wolves support their members and work cooperatively for a common goal .
So yes Maharaja, some basic training is required .I admit it and am up for it .I am a sub-prime ,sub-human and need a lot of work.{ask anyone in the Murwillumbah sanga } Anyone else up for it?
Bring it on Maharaja ,lets be enthusiastic and positively hopeful about some substantial improvident in both our individual and collective abilities to render appropriate and pleasing seva to Sri Guru and Sri Gouranga .
Ha Gouranga!! Radhe Radhe!!
“Our sangas around the world are on the size scale and demographics of a village . But generally we haven learned how to have a village meeting and make everyone feel heard , included and valued .Neither generally have we learned how to make group decisions that the group owns as a whole .
The same applies to division of labor and specialization .A village has potters , weavers , farmers ,a council of elders etc etc but functions as a cohesive whole .Generally as urbanized westerners we havent learned the basic human skills necessary to live in an affectionate ,effective and efficient village/sanga sized group ..”
Westerners are far more developed when it comes to inclusiveness and communicating effectively than Indians. One reason is because we’ve had a “therapy culture” in the works for decades now. Indians still operate on a heirarchal and shame-based paradigm, generally speaking. As someone who has spent extensive time in India, there is no way I can idealize it like some of you are doing here. Sure, it also has it’s good points, what country or culture doesn’t? But it’s not as if these village panchayats are a place where “everyone’s viewpoint is heard.” It’s 2010 and they still have to push for women on panchayat seats. Some of these panchayats meet to discuss what sort of violent punishment should be meeted out to legal adults who choose to marry the spouses of their liking.
No question that the West is much more progressive. Indians sweep their issues under the Persian carpet. Someone suggested inquiring from the Indian vaishnavas in our sanga as how to properly conduct meetings, communications, etc.
Many of them themselves also don’t get along and they are less likely to try to smoothe things out over converstion and herbal tea. It’s just not in their culture.
Relationship and communication skills are best learnt from Westerners. Of course exceptions are there, but not all cultures have the same strengths or the same weaknesses.
Let’s be grateful that we Westerners are coming from cultures that have made a lot of progress on many fronts, including the invention of toilet paper for hygenic purposes. LOL!
DandavatPranams , there are famous and often quoted statements of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada about how Krishna Consciousness will take over the world as a cultural conquest .{can supply quotes if needed].My understanding is when two different cultures come into contact and intertwine people naturally adopt the superior cultural aspects , abandoning the inferior
.Like if in one culture the habit is to wipe off [smear] excrement with paper ,coming into contact with another culture that washes of the stool they find it feels so much cleaner and so adopt the habit that has a superior outcome [feeling cleaner]
As far as I can understand the original ancient pristine vedia culture was quite different from modern day rural India Personally I have no doubt that if the world would be so fortunate as to some how be acquainted with sanatan dharma, varna ashrama dharma etc in its pristine original purity it would gradually prevail as the dominant culture.
Radhe Radhe !!
Dandavats Maharaja, Lost Servant, and others,
Just as you thanked us for wearing our hearts on our sleeves, I thank you for reciprocating in spite of the fact that you said you’d be too busy in Russia now to write much. The picture reminds me of the story of Narottama dasa Thakura being rejected by Lokanatha dasa Thakura for giving water to someone while chanting, and how I sometimes think I should ignore people when I chant (though unable to even ignore my mind). It is unclear to me how to balance my life in such a way that I neglect neither Guru-Gauranga on the one side nor His devotees who take the form of my family and friends on the other side. In one year, I spend perhaps 10 days in India, and some of my family and friends’ understanding of what is Krsna Consciousness differs from mine. In short, I appear rigid and fanatical to them. Am I? I don’t know. I only know that if I could get that type of sadhu-sanga the rest of the year, I could treat others in a more moderate, down-to-earth way during parikrama.
Y/s,
Gita dasi
Dandavats Maharaja, all this is very true. We can only chant and grow inside to very high levels, but we need to function in a proper way and we need to execute our duties and responsabilities in an examplary fashion. In my humble opinion this will have a very good effect on the way we portrait ourselves to society at large, that will judge us more by our actions than by how we speak of topics which are beyond their mundane conceptions. In the case of family life, it will certainly serve the members who are to be guided and protected, rather than neglected on the name of our advancement. I am in my mid 50′s and have witness three generations of western devotees not being able to relate properly to family and other devotees surrounding them. “family is the basis of society, and where there are good families, the result is a good society.” We cannot artificially copy the actions of the Golden Avatar and pure devotees, for we have seen how all we do in trying to copy such exalted personalities and realizations is behave in ways that are lesser than the karmi values, usually children are the victims of this scenarios and this we have amply seen in a second generation of ISKCON very disfunctional and impaired individuals, maybe it is a blessing for getting into the akincana goca platform, I really do not know, I am only judging thru my own western karmi perceptions. I myself walk away after ten years of full summersion in the ISKCON society when I realized nothing was working within it, and then I viewed the karmic world which advertise this airplane will take you to such a place and it did, the car will work with gasoline and it did, the washing machine will work in such an such a way and it also did. But at the time in our world nothing was working, from gurus to children, most things were twisted and wrong, so I had to sadly leave. I congratulate Maharaja on presenting this very valid points, I write here with some reserve, as I prefer to avoid problems and confrontations of which I had had enough. But having witness history and the way many individuals have been hurt or hurt themselves, I feel here obliged to support the points Maharaja is making, as they say: We should not forget history, so we do not commit the same mistakes all over again. Begging for forgiveness if in writting my imperfect understanding of things I unwillingly have offended anyone. My only motive here is to see happy devotee individuals who are advancing towards their goals, and a functional society that can have a positive impact in society at large, isn’t this is all what first stage preaching is about. Humbly, I beg my words can be of some service.
Dandavats Maharaja!
Yes, very good, But we must have an interface that excludes elitism, which I think is our biggest challenge.
I also am keen that we strengthen the sanga and provide practical help and advice. If that means forming a commercial enterprise, employing devotee’s and channeling the funds/profit for the benefit of us all, well that’s all to the good.
I will e.mail you directly to discuss
All Glories to our beloved Gurudeva & Gouranga
an aspiring
Radha-kanta (Scotland)
Yep ,lets exclude elitism. Lead from the front , example is better than precept.
Just chant Hari Krishna will solve all problems if that’s all you do because you’ll have no time to get into trouble!
Jai !! All glories to the Holy Names of the Lord !!
Hari Bol !! Hari Bol !!
Dear Maharaji.
Please accept my dandavat pranams.
Just a word of encouragement to keep going with this effort. As a world wide sanga, we must understand we are al comming from very different plataforms at the time of joining Srila Gurudevas PureBhakti Yoga Society. This means that most of us western devotees have no understanding of Vedic principles. It is true we must go beyond all this denominations of cast, and ashram, but in order to do so it is very good to follow a process. It just makes things flow in a better way. Most of the time I feel like I am a kindergarden student trying to follow in the footsteps of a Post-doctorate PHD in the science of Bhakti. As you clearly mention, it is human relationships what hinders the progress, because of the danger of offenses to vaisnavas. In Vrndaban everyone loves Krsna the most, but all Vrajawasis have love and affection for each other, and most important respect. I would like to voice my opinion in the sense that chanting is the most important part of our sadhana, but learning to relate to other is a very important part of the process of learning how to love and serve.
Whenever I stumble on some difficulty in my life I always try to take shelter of the life of our most revered Srila Ragunatha Dasa Goswami. In his life he has taught the world through practical example the many stepping stones in the path of bhakti yoga.
I aspire to become humble one day as to accept the kind help my superiors are giving, help in the sense of their patience and guidance to overcome my many anarthas, the patience and the trust and the kindness they show by travelling under Srila Gurudevas order to take care of his children, so that step by step we can grow in a healthy way from kindergarden level all they way to graduating in the art and science of Pure Love. Thats a long way, and without Sadhu-sanga this is difficult. Without sadhu sanga, then where will the strengh for chanting come? Some may say than within, and this means they are very strong inside. But for someone new, what to do but take shelter of the sanga. In my life I have realized without the help of Guru and Vaisnavas I am no better than an untamed animal. This is my condition.
Please once again recieve my dandavats and encouragement.
Jaya Sria Gurudeva and Vaisnavas.
Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu became mad chanting Hare Krsna, He left His beloved wife and He had no children. He was very special and not from this earth, Krsna Himself, Sri Sri Radha Krsna combined, can we become mad chanting Hare Krsna in family life, living in the material world with so many material obligations ?
Haribol Narayani,
Just some thoughts on your comment. I have a little time to respond if you don’t mind.
My husband and I as householders with grown children in the home, are not confusing our position with the position of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We can never act, or become like God. But we prefer to take inspiration from the life of Bhaktivinode Thakur. A family man, with wife and many children, and a responsible job. How was he living in his practical life ? His example is our inspiration. As householders, his example is practical for us to follow. For sannyasis, well perhaps they have a different personality they look toward for their inspiration of how to live their life on a daily basis.
Everyone is unique, in a different varna and ashram, and what is inspiration for one, may not be practical for another. It’s really quite individual, this spiritual life.
Dandavats and pranams didi. Thank you for your answer, in fact that is what I meant, we are Gaura bhakta vrinda, aren’t we ? And, yes, depending on the ashrama…thinks can be quite different. Maharaja’s proposal is excellent, in this material world being a couple, being in family life is consideted a better achievement that being single, it is more supportive, isn’it ? simple logic, also, for an economical aspect. Anyway, thank you for your thoughtful answer, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura used to lament also, and Nimaï comes from bitter (remember why ?) Haribolo, Radhe Radhe, thanks again for writing, Vicitri didi is to busy with her bhajan to have time to develop. Gaur Premanand
In my humble opinion I’m sure the most advanced sannyasis are in awe and wonderment of this most powerful acharya who “externally” played the part of a householder but who’s heart was wrapped in saffron cloth. He resurrected our sampradaya and defeated so many fools and pretenders posing as ” vaisnavas” with his pure uncompromising siddhanta. His songs are the most beautiful in all the universe and would melt the hardest heart.
Haribol,
Thanks for your comment Sudarsana das, I always appreciate the “different angles of vision” that the devotees have.
very honest thoughts Maharaja