By Radhakanta das.
It is Srila Gurudeva’s desire to create the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society that will serve the devotees, the worldwide preaching and preserve his legacy for future generations. Over the last few years there have been numerous meetings and discussion about how to create such a society. I have been involved in most of them and have been at the forefront of that effort. Unfortunately, very little progress has been made toward our goal. There seems to be a general lack of interest, apathy or resistance about forming a society. This has caused me to think hard and deep about the reasons why. In this paper I will attempt to uncover these obstacles and present some possible solutions. I do not presume to know all the answers, but hope to open a dialogue and provoke thought. If we can gain consensus on a positive way forward amongst a good number of devotees, especially the sannyasis and senior persons in the sanga, we may be able to actualize the international society that Srila Gurudeva has envisioned.
What are the obstacles that we face in creating a society? Is it simply a lack of knowledge on how to create it? Do we collectively have a ‘mental block’ against a society because of previous negative experiences with organizations or societies that were abusive? Do we not understand its relevance, how it will benefit us? Is our sanga made up of individuals too independent to work together? If so, what is fostering that extreme independence? What would it take to change it? Have we created a culture within the sanga that is not conducive to forming of a society? If so, what is that culture and what purpose is it serving? Do we want to change it? If we are to fulfill Srila Gurudeva’s desire to create a society we are going to have to ask these kinds of hard questions and be willing to listen to the answers. We will have to be flexible and make the sacrifices required. If we are not willing to go through this process, I question, as the title says, do we really want an international society?
In attempting to form an international society we should understand our members. What are their varied cultures, races, backgrounds interests and concerns? The word ‘international’ means global, across boarders and cultures. By understanding, appreciating and being sensitive to the backgrounds and cultural differences of our members from around the world, we can address their distinct needs, and perhaps inspire and empower them to work in a spirit of cooperation. On the other hand, if we don’t understand each other, are insensitive or try to impose a singular limiting culture on our members, we will fail. In order to prosper and grow as a society we should be liberal and sensitive in our dealings. We may then begin to imbibe Srila Gurudeva’s mood of ‘love and affection’.
The word ‘Society’ means an advanced civilization or a group of persons who cooperate together for a particular purpose. That purpose must be a shared vision that is appreciated by all. It should also be clearly defined. If the vision is too vague it will not rally the support needed to be realized. If there are too many different visions, the possibility of consensus and a unified direction will be lost.
The Gaudiya Math model & Cultural Translation
Our sanga is modeled after an Indian cultural paradigm, way of thinking, and structure. This is natural as our philosophy originates in India and all the great acaryas and teachers both past and present are from India. There are many beautiful and rich devotional aspects of traditional Indian culture. That is what attracted us as westerners to Krsna Consciousness in the first place. There are other aspects of Indian culture that are material. We need to discern between the two. The truly spiritual aspects such as the principles of suddha-bhakti, acceptance of Sri Guru, and the age-old philosophy of the Vedic literature are all spiritual and indispensable. Whereas, the material aspects of Indian culture such as its food, dress, language to some extent, management style and other cultural idiosyncrasies are material and may be dispensable. When forming an international society we will want to preserve the essential spirituality of the tradition while using discretion regarding the non-essential cultural attributes we adopt. Otherwise, we run the risk of creating a culturally distinct small ‘cult’ while alienating the massive circumference of members and potential members worldwide.
Our sanga has imbibed the culture of the Gaudiya Math which can be characterized as patriarchal, hierarchical, renunciation focused and to a large extent autocratic. A typical Gaudiya Matha model consists of an Acarya, senior renunciates (sannyasis) and brahmacaris. All the members of the temple live under the guidance of, if not in direct supervision of the acarya and senior vaisnavas. The outside communities of householders are mostly involved in business and family life. They attend temple functions occasionally and give some financial support but are not an integral part of the temple’s hierarchy, management or daily functions. The ‘Math vasis’, or residents of the Math, are primarily renounced persons and almost exclusively manage the affairs of the temple.
The dedicated inner core of renunciates who live in the Math play a key role in society by preserving the essential teachings of the Vedas, both by example and precept. That is essential. They are the brahmanas and sannyasis that make up the ‘head’ of the social body and spiritually direct the other classes in a civilized society. However, when we begin to think about developing an international society, it will take on a much larger scope than the Math model described above. Although the society may hold as its ideal and ultimate goal the renunciate focused paradigm, it will have to broaden its scope of influence and perspective to include more positive engagement for the vast majority of its members who are householders, grhasta-vasinavas.
In the past the Gaudiya Math model in our sanga has worked fairly well and served the devotees. However, what started just a few short years ago with a few Maths in Mathura and Vrindavana and a small group of sannyasis and brahmacaris has now rapidly grown into a massive worldwide sanga. It is a bit overwhelming. Due to the charismatic preaching & potency of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja and his leading preachers, so many new persons from around the world have come from all walks of life, on different levels of commitment, varnas and ahsrams. It is now way beyond the scope of the ‘Math model’ to handle and engage all these people successfully.
Daivi-varnasrama forms the basis for a spiritual society
Daivi-varnasrama dharma, or the division of social and spiritual responsibilities with the aim of developing in bhakti forms the basis of traditional Vedic society. The Brahmanas and sannyasis are the natural leaders of all the varnas and ashrams. They require, in turn, the cooperation and support of the other varnas and ashrams in order to function properly. In order for the head of the body to function, all the limbs must work in harmony with it. In the same way, all the varnas and ashrams hold essential roles in relation to each other. When renunciates and householders, brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras all serve together with respect and affection, varnasrama dharma works perfectly and everyone benefits materially and spiritually.
Engagement in devotional service is essential. If persons engage in practical devotional service according to their propensities and are given the scope to act with some autonomy they feel inspired and committed. If they are neglected or not engaged they feel despondent, left out and disinterested. Could it be that the lack of cooperation and interest in building a society, or even our inability to develop strong local communities is because of this lack of properly engaging our congregation?
Varnashrama dharma helps individuals progress in bhakti and gradually reach the spiritual goal of life through cooperation and non-envy. In Srimad Bhagavatam, 5.13.11, in the purport of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami he writes, “The Krsna consciousness movement aims at creating an atmosphere of non-envy. Of course it is not possible for everyone to become Krsna conscious, but the Krsna consciousness movement can create an exemplary society wherein there is no envy.” If our society is made up of devotees who are for the most part non-envious, or at least, the leaders of the society are non-envious, then that society can be called a Krsna Consciousness society. Cooperation and non-envy are essential in order for daivi-varnasharama or any vaisnava society to prosper. This mentality allows members to work together across social, cultural and spiritual divisions. Non-envy is demonstrated when persons are happy to see others advance and take positions of responsibility of service. It means recognizing and appreciating the potential in others and encouraging and empowering them to serve according to their capacity without trying to exploit, manipulate or control them.
Applied Spirituality – Yukta Vairagya
Another important aspect of connecting our communities with the society at large is to ‘walk our talk’ or demonstrate how to apply our high philosophy practically in everyday life. This phenomenon can be termed, ‘applied spirituality’ and is the main ingredient required to attract quality new people. We will catch the attention of the public when they see us teaching a process for everyone including working persons, students, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters, not just the learned and renounced persons. When they see we are offering a philosophy and lifestyle that can be applied in all facets of life; family, business, health, education, relationships, cuisine, art, music, etc., they will appreciate the broad all encompassing nature of our philosophy. If we can show by personal example how to practice Krsna Consciousness and be happy, whatever stage of life we are in, many persons will be drawn to such a society.
Bhaktivinode Thakur is the perfect example of yukta vairagya- real renunciation and applied spirituality. He was a responsible person in society as a high court judge, a husband and father, at the same time he performed pure devotional service, strict sadhana-bhajana, preaching, and wrote so many songs and bhakti literatures. He did not prematurely renounce his responsibilities in the world, but showed by example to be ‘in the world but not of the world’. He is the father of Krsna Consciousness as we know it today. If it were not for him, we would all be drowning in illusion. His son, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur carried on his father’s mood and teachings. He was a brahmacari then became a sannyasi and never married. He preached strongly against markata-vairagya, or monkey renunciation and was strongly in favor of yukta-vairagya, or proper renunciation, utilizing everything appropriately in the service of the Lord. Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada also followed suit and showed practically how everyone all over the world from the lowest class up to the highest could become vaisnavas. Our Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja has been so liberal in attracting so many persons from different backgrounds to come together for sadhu-sanga.
If our sannyasis, preachers and leaders will imbibe this mood yukta-vairagya by encouraging everyone to serve in a capacity that is suited for them, it will revolutionize the preaching. On the other hand if the preaching is too focused on renunciation, neophyte persons will prematurely renounce their families and occupations and become ruined. We have seen too much of this. This pretentious platform does not help individuals but is the cause of their fall down and the degradation of society. By encouraging everyone to work according to their station of life in the spirit of devotion, gradually genuine renunciation develops.
vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yoga prayojitah,
janayati asu vairagyam, jnanam ca-yad ahaitukam (SB 1.2.7)“By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.”
As Vaisnavas our process is bhakti alone, not the path of karma. jnana, tapasya or vairagya. If renounced persons hold key managerial positions in large projects, businesses or societies, they may become embroiled in politics, raising money, and dealing with so many material considerations. We have seen in our society and in ISKCON how this has been fatal for sannyasis and brutal on persons who are under them. When Sannyasis manage others (like ksatriyas), due to their superior spiritual position, no-one wants to disagree with them even when wrong decisions are being made. With such autocratic management a leader may become deluded with a sense of self importance, become over-controlling and even abusive. It is therefore preferable that sannyasis don’t manage but preach, teach and counsel others. This is their given occupation. “Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness—these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.” (BG 18.42)
The management of buildings, temples (especially outside of India), big projects, money, societies, etc. should be left to the ksatriya and vaisya types and the grhasta-vaisnavas. That is there occupational duty. “Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas. Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas,” (BG 18.43-44). Householders are already dealing with money, management and business and have developed experience and proficiency in these areas, so there is no danger in them serving in those areas.
Krsna says in Bhagavad-Gita (3.35), “It is far better to discharge one’s prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another’s duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous.” So, accordingly everyone should act and be engaged in devotional service according their status in life, dharma and given propensities.
Western Society differs from Eastern Society
Western society is deeply rooted in democracy with a strong sense of individualism. Freedom of expression, open dialogue and questioning are all characteristics of westerners. Westerners, especially Americans and Europeans, are the inventors and pioneers who create new things, make breakthroughs in technology, medicine etc. They are the charity givers to the world’s developing countries. They are leaders in democratic politics and promoting personal liberties. While working within groups westerners manage by consensus. Therefore, when a strongly autocratic and hierarchical culture is imposed in the west it finds resistance. Could this be another reason why our sanga as a ‘society’ is not flourishing? Have we been trying to impose something that works in India into quite different cultures, ignoring the natural propensities of the persons living there?
Developing Devotional Communities
During the last 10 years western devotees have donated money towards building temples in the holy dhamas of India. It has been an important service to build these facilities for the annual Vrindavana and Navadvipa parikramas that host devotees from all over the world. The parikramas create strong samskaras (spiritual impressions) in the minds and hearts of the devotees who attend them. This service has been needed and is glorious. Those who have helped to fund these projects have acquired tremendous bhakti-sukriti (devotional credit) by serving the dhama and vaisnavas and their gurudeva.
On the other hand, in the last 10 years fewer resources have been put into building devotional communities outside of India. The result is that we have no major temples, preaching centers, schools or communities outside India. Except for ‘going to see Srila Gurudeva at the next festival or in India’; most western devotees seem to have little enthusiasm for anything else. Some persons categorize our sanga as a band of ‘gypsies’ with no real structure. If we want Krsna Consciousness to be deeply rooted in our hearts and minds and in the hearts and minds of our children, we will have to begin to build strong spiritual communities in the west.
There will always be a few rare devotees who renounce everything and live in Sri Navadvipa dhama or Sri Vrindavana dhama and practice ananya-bhajana (one-pointed devotion). This is wonderful. They have begun to realize Srila Rupa Goswami’s essence of all instructions in verse 8 of Upadesamrita, tan nama rupa caritadi sukirtananu…. However, most devotees will not come to this level of dedication or renunciation in their lifetime. Therefore, if we want to help devotees develop their bhakti and increase the worldwide preaching, strong spiritual communities will need to be established outside India.
New Models
As we develop local spiritual communities we should take advantage of the history of what has worked and what has not worked in the Gaudiya Matha, ISKCON and other spiritual groups and societies. From those lessons we can synthesize an approach that is appropriate for the time we live in.
Some people may object, why create a new way? Just accept the way things have always been done in our Gaudiya Math for generations, or what Srila Prabhupada has established in ISKCON. You shouldn’t try to change things; it is heresy to do so. But, these organizations have had their problems, as we know only too well. No-one is suggesting changing the core values or siddhanta, but only some adjustment in the practical application. Life is never static. It is always evolving and changing. To spread KC around the world, as AC Bhaktivedanta Swami did so successfully (and with revolutionary tactics too!), we will have to be creative, intelligent and as open minded as he was.
What will be the Test of Success?
The ‘proof is in the pudding’ or ‘the tasting’ they say. What will be the proof that we are on the road to creating the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society? When we see devotees thriving and prospering in their local communities (not struggling and quarrelling), when we secure a legacy for future generations by involving the younger generation in a vision and services they can embrace, when we provide engagement for members from all corners of the world and from all varnas and ashrams, when we see more members practicing good sadhana-bhajan and preaching, not just the sannyasis – we can say we are making progress towards creating a successful society.
To create and sustain an international society with the lofty ideals of Gaudiya Vaisnavism is not an easy task; it is also not impossible. Many other religious organizations have done it. It will take a clear inspiring vision, hard work, capital, and most importantly individuals committing their time and energy to serve cooperatively. It will take mature leaders, ‘saragrahi vaisnavas’ (those who take the essence of spirituality as opposed to its superficiality) to translate the Gaudiya Vaisnava culture in a way that everyone can appreciate and take part in. We already have a wonderful pure maha-bhagavata guru in the lead. All we need now is to get behind his vision, find ways to apply it and work cooperatively to manifest it.
If we create a large attractive form of a society with little spiritual substance then what is its value? We must preserve the purity of our parampara’s teachings, the monastic order, the Math, the sannyasis and brahmacaris, and our bhakti literatures. On the other hand, if we have deep spiritual substance but no form, no society or effective outreach arm, there will be no vehicle for connecting with the world. So, both must be there.
Conclusion
One purpose of this paper has been to take a courageous view of the obstacles we face in creating a society. I have taken some risk in bringing up these sensitive topics. As a result there may be diverse opinions to what has been written. I felt it necessary though in order to create a catharsis to reverse the disabling apathy around this subject.
I have asked how we can harmonize the diverse cultural backgrounds of our members so they feel included and inspired. I have asked how to harmonize the different social and spiritual statuses of our members so they want to cooperate and build a society. In attempting to answer these questions, based on years of research and personal experience, I hope I have offered some valuable solutions.
Another purpose of this paper has been to inspire a vision for the society. The vision is Srila Gurudeva’s vision, and that of our previous acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. They all have desired to create a society of devotees from all over the world and all walks of life who cooperatively serve together for the common goal of Krsna Consciousness. This vision was originally inspired by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. He is so merciful and is always trying to find ways to draw the conditioned souls back to their original nature of divine love and happiness, back to Godhead. A strong international devotional society will facilitate the flow of bhakti in the hearts of all its members and will certainly spread the rays of good fortune to the whole world.
RadheShaym Jai Jai !
We all need leaders and guaidance in our lives!
To be founded and established a society of ARYAS !
Is an ideal indeed and should be aspire for within any
Sampradya or Parampara of Vedic Dharma ! Sanatana Dharma !
Ravana was an ARYAN too! He was a Brahmin and in the lienage
of MahaRishi Pulashya ! How he came to such a pass and became
an UNARYA ? Is another KATHA we were hearing for eaons !
THE IDEALS OF THE ARYAS IN KALI-YUGA IS REMARKABLE !
FOR IN THEM WE ASPIRE FOR THE HIGHEST GOOD WITHIN OURSELVES
AND THAT’S WHERE THE SOCIETY STARTS !
Radhe Radhe
A SOCIETY WITH BIAS AND PREJUDICE
CREATES ISM AND SCHISM
LOVE IS ALL THERE IS!
EVERYTHING ELSE IS FALSE!
FIGHTING AGAINST THE TRUTH !
WE DONOT WANT ANOTHER ISKCON WITH ITS’ GBC!
ADI-PURU-SHAYM DIDNOT CREATE ANY OF THESE
SYSTEM NOR IS IT A SYSTEM !
IT CREATES CONFIDENCE MAN INSTEAD OF A MAN OR WOMEN
WHO HAS CONFIDENCE !
Syama
re: Cow Protection Wales, UK
I searched ‘cow protection’ & this article came up…
Here’s our YouTube appeal for universal cow protection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Aio0kgCcQ
Please can anyone help to purchase 15 acres of prime pasture land which came up for sale the same week we launched Cow Protection Wales? Here’s the URL:
http://www.dezrez.com/DRApp/Search.ASP?
WCI=Particular&WCE=002124202
If you know anyone at all or have any ideas about how to secure this land, it would be very much appreciated. Land like this for sale is extremely rare in these parts. This is about 3 miles from where we live. Gaurachand prabhu reckons he can support 10 to 15 cows on this land and is praying like mad for this one. We intend to rescue cows and bulls from local markets, and we’re also looking to start a small dairy for cruelty-free organic/raw milk. Its selling at £3 a litre and demand is outstripping supply, so small dairy farming is now becoming viable again…
Please reply to
cowprotectionwales@gmail.com
Many thanks… =:-)
Please visit our Cow Protection Wales Facebook page at:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cow-Protection-Wales/139729796096493
Cow seva ki jaya!
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Dear Mathuranatha Prabhu,
Dandavats. You make good points. Srila Gurudeva obviously wants from his transcendental vision, something more than what we have now, not just the continuation of the status quo.
You have suggested that it means more Maths, temples. I agree that this is certainly an important part of it. As you mention, it is important to have a place to congregate and perform sadhana-bhajan in association. But that is not all. As we see many institutions have big temples but no substance or depth in philosophy or affectionate and meaningful relationships between their members. So, although the structure, form and buildings are important, the content or substance is equally if not more important.
This ‘substance’ needs to be delineated and defined. What is it exactly? It is our philosophy yes, but it is also the application of the philosophy in a way that serves everyone, not just a few. Mahaprabhu’s mission is to give Prema, and that means total unconditional love and acceptance of the Lord and all of His energies and for all jivas. Mahaprabhu embraced the candalas and Brahmanas alike. The leaders of a society for Pure Bhakti must possess the same mood and strictly reject any sectarian views contaminated with prejudice towards vaisnavas according to their birth, race or nationality. Otherwise such an attempt to form a spiritual society will be superficial and material.
What is needed is deep realized understanding of the philosophy (not just intellectual expounding of the sastra or ‘dogma’) and a widespread liberal application of the philosophy that will touch the lives of its members. This will manifest as an all encompassing service mood that respects everyone and engages everyone according to their abilities, status, desires, etc. When we learn how to engage our members in meaningful ways that are appropriate for them, they will feel inspired and inspire others. It is muti-level and it is infectious.
The lack of inspiration and the lack of development in our society may be due to not understanding our members or offering them ways to be involved in the society and serve from whatever social status and position they are in. If everyone feels that they have to renounce the world and take saffron before they can do meaningful service, there will not be many coming forward, hence, the lack of involvement. On the other hand if they see ways to offer meaningful service without changing their social status or giving everything up, they will get involved. The key is initiative and creative thinking on the part of leadership to do what is needed to be successful.
Dandavat Pranams ! All Glories To Sri Guru and Sri Gouranga !!
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If there is no society, everyone will be separated. They will scatter here and there; there will be no control.
So naturally we will wonder how having a society will stop the devotees being separate and scattering here and there .There is no society now, so does that mean the devotees are separated and scattering here and there now?.I personally would say yes most definitely and its increasing .So clearly Srila Gurudeva wants a society to rectify that ..
So why are they separated and scattering here and there ?By definition to be separated means to have no association .So in other words Srila Gurudeva is saying He wants the devotees to always be in good association[not separated ]
“The word ‘Society’ means an advanced civilization or a group of persons who cooperate together for a particular purpose”.By definition a society means to be in the association of a group working cooperatively together.
So Srila Gurudeva wants a society so the devotees will always have good association .
How will our new society provide that association that is lacking [by definition ] without a society .That means the new society will add a new element of association that we currently dont have .
We already have Srila Gurudeva and his sannyassis travelling everywhere giving association intermittently .And we already have the association of Gurudevas books .But that status quo is not enough for Srila Gurudeva and[ by definition] He wants the new society to provide something more .
What could that possibly be ?What new element will the new society provide that will give us constant good association and stop us “being separated and scattering here and there” ??
The obvious answer , based upon the precedents set by our recent achariyas , is temples .Temples , maths , mandirs, ashrams provide the opportunity for constant good association and [by definition ] stop us from being separated and scattering here and there .
I guess thats why Srila Gurudeva has been constantly asking devotees all around the world where ever he goes to establish centers .So logically [as established above ] the new Society is supposed to help the devotees do that .
Dear devotees please give any logical ,reasonable replies and refrain from venting unresolved emotional aversions and apprehensions .
Radhe Radhe !!!
Very nice Vishrambha guru seva prabhu. I suggested in the ‘My sanga idea’ that articles of tantamount importance such as this to the future of our society and preaching movement should not be given only a few days on the front page of the website.
Thank you Abhirama Prabhu. Ragahava Pandit Prabhu who manages this web site must have put it back on the front page, even tough it expired, due to the volume of comments. There has been more blogs here than any other article published on BTB. So, this topic is interesting and thought provoking. You have permission to share this article in any way you think is appropriate.
I know that you are sincerely serving Srila Gurudeva and his mission and have an interest in seeing cooperation and development as well. Those who have this idea will support each other and work together.
May i humbly speak.It is not our position to judge the level of anothers service.I feel very disappointed at some of the points made in the above exchanges, unfortunately this confirms my worsed fears.
i agree with you i go cold when i see this mountain of ego
Radhe Radhe!
I believe that if you can not do it externally, you can do it internally, anyway you follows Gurudev order.
If I would keep a grudge to people who pulled me down in my life, I will not be able to keep going.
Gurudev sees everything, evrry time and every place. He can see your motivations and rewarded you acoordingly
Dandavats
“Could it be that the lack of cooperation and interest in building a society… is because of this lack of properly engaging our congregation?”
I cant speak for others, but I can give my own case as an example….
Srila Gurudeva has asked me at least 3 times (starting 12-13 years back) that I should be involved in editing his books. I told the heads of the book dept, sanyasis, and many others involved in the book dept this fact again and again and again over the years.. and yet no-one has helped me be in involved me in such.
It even went as far as the Sanga_Teams website advertised they needed help in the book dept ranging from editing to proof-reading and other things, and I wrote them explaining my education and Srila Gurudvea’s repeated request.. and yet still nothing!
I began to feel (a long time back) that it simply didnt even matter what Gurudeva wanted.. it just didnt seem to count.. and I would just have to be happy with doing nothing.
At least now this article and website has finally given me the chance to come forward in a public way and tell my story (for what its worth). However I dont even feel comfortable in giving my name as I fear that those in charge may be vindictive and NEVER give me the chance in what Srila Gurudeva has requested me to do (I still hold the hope that someday it might happen).
Dandavats anonymous devotee. Your testimonial is heard and will be repeated. It is not uncommon unfortunately. Thank you for bravely bringing up your frustration. It is not heresay. If we are able to know and hear what are the problems we may be able to overcome them.
I will be sending your response to Syamarani dd in publishing who has a very soft heart and I am sure will want to know who you are, and see if she can help. If you feel comfortable you can e-mail me confidentially at radhakanta@bhaktiprojects.org. Syamarani dd’s team are always looking for people to help, but yes, publishing can be scattered like so many other seva sections of our society. Let’s see what happens.
Dandavat Pranams , just in case anyone doesnt know , this subjects discussion has broadened right out on the new My Sanga Idea forum, to at present 45 ideas posted
136 comments 190 votes 60 users http://ipbys.ideascale.com/a/ideafactory.do?id=9554&mode=recent&discussionFilter=active&target=home
Radhe Radhe!!
this is the exact link.
jai gurudeva
yrs, raghava
http://backtobhakti.com/news-about-srila-gurudeva/srila-gurudeva-speaks-about-ipbys/
please give the link to the video prabhu
Devarsirat das (ACBSP 1976) says:
July 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM
please give the link to the video prabhu
Reply Prabuji , on the Home Page of the site we are on now -Back To Bhakti there is a series of revoling pictures in a featued box -right in the middle under the logo banner .One of the eight featured videos/articles is Srila Gurudeva sitting on a big cane chair talking to Yasodanandan entitled -”Gurudeva speaks about IPBYS” just click play when THAt one [the cane chair] comes up as there are a few of Gurudeva .
Hope that helps Radhe Radhe [md australia]
Laaks and Laaks of Sashtang Dandavat Pranams in the dust at the lotus feet of all the past , present , and future Vaisnavas. All Glories to Sri Sri Guru-Gouranga-Gandavika- Giridhari-Radha-Vinoda- bihariji ki jaya ! Srila Gurudeva ki jaya !
We just saw the new video of Srila Gurudeva speaking to Yasaodanadana Prabhu about the new society
quote:-” Yasodanadana dasa: You asked me to set up the Society. Why the Society, Gurudeva?
Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: If there is no society, everyone will be separated. They will scatter here and there; there will be no control.”
A controversial point no doubt , but open strait-forward communication should help .
“missunderstanding is like poison” :-Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada
Every society gives some benefits to its members [or they wont stay] and in return those members have some duties and obligations to the society [or the society will reject or discipline them].To derive those benefits we willingly come under the control of that society in respect to fulfilling our debt of duty and seva [in return for the things the society does for us ].
So as I understand Gurudeva the society is there to benefit us and control us so we are not separated [ from sat sanga] and scatter here and there [doing asat sanga] .
Srila Gurudeva has repeatedly ordered the Bhakti Trust and Sanyassis — make a society to benefit the devotees who voluntarily come under its control .
Not just them, but generally, Srila Gurudeva has requested /ordered us to do for him like what Swami Maharajas disciples did for Prabupada .Many times – so that order has come to many many of us directly.
So those that take up the order [without ulterior motives]will be empowered to do it .And those that are taking it to heart and doing the needful , we should not be envious of them ,but rather joyfully assist them .
Our independence is whether to make a society or not ,or take shelter of Srila Gurudevas Society or not .Whether we want to be controlled [by Guru and Krishna } or remain independent .
Ha Gouranga !! Gouranga Nitai!! [mathuranatha das australia]
Sadhu! Sadhu! Thank you my dear friend Radhakanta Prabhu….
Nice Points!!! I am definitely sympathetic to your observations!!
your friend,
the lowly and insignificant,
Mahabuddhi dasa
Thank you Mahabuddhi Prabhu, Dandavats. I know that persons like yourself who have so much experience to offer will one day find a place and be properly engageed in a Vaisnava society. I long for that day.
Your friend,
Radhakanta das
Dandavat Pranams dear prabhus
I normally don’t write or say too much, for fear of being exposed as totally unintelligent in front of the many learned devotees and because of this, I am always undecided if I should write or not, but here are some of my thoughts anyway.
We are already the International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga.
It sounds as if we still have to establish it, which creates some kind of illusion, because we think that we are the doers and because many of us are complete failures in material life we can see only difficulties and pressure ahead and feel reluctant to do anything.
It’s really not that difficult. All we have to do is to stay in touch and encourage each other to follow Srila Gurudevas wishes and teachings. We are spreading the Hare Krishna mantra publicly to “every town and village” in the world under the name of “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga”
We can remember that when Srila Gurudeva wishes His disciples to do anything, then all the power to for complete success is already there. His wishes and words are not empty sound; they are full of divine potency and power. We need to be willing and make ourselves available in devotional surrender and Lord Krishna gives the result.
There is no question like do we want it? Srila Gurudeva wants it, He is giving us something to do and we as His followers and His disciples we can accept and carry it out. The successful result is up to our strong Bhajan a pure heart and the desire to help Lord Chaitanya to establish the Yuga Dharma of chanting the Holy Names in every town and village.
We do not need big big temples or centres, but if opportunity arises we take it and build one. Otherwise we can rent a place once a week like i do, or use our own homes to invite the public to come and hear.
In my case I am 180 miles away from London in an old fishing town and my only devotee association are two ladies who just about begin to catch on to KC, but still, I am operated under the name of
“The Bhakti Yoga Society” and now under the name “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga” and for the last year and half have had weekly meetings using a room which I rented for £12 for two hours between 6 and 8pm every Thursday. Before that I struggled with Throat cancer and did nothing for about 5 years. Then BV Tridandi Maharaja said to me during His visit to my home
“ You are a Prabhupada disciple you should preach, not hang about” and that is how it started.
For all this time, it was extremely quiet, but I decided to continue no matter what. Then an Indian couple came and I was introduced to more local Indian families. This was 6 months ago, still it was quiet and there was no pattern to who came to the programs. The most who ever came where 20 people, but mostly only 2 or 3.
Then suddenly 12 weeks ago, one Indian family brought back from Vrindavan as a gift to us, the most beautiful Radha Krishna deities which Srila Gurudeva named Sri Sri Radha Govindaji and then totally unexpectedly and out of the blue, 6 weeks later, I received a phone call from another Indian couple, who had decided to build a small house at the end of their huge garden, big enough for up to 25 people, with a new kitchen, carpets a proper drive way, car parking e.g. with the idea, so that I can preach from there. I get the key in August when the building is finished. They already told me if people start coming, they will continue building on to it to accommodate up to 200 people. They also told me that travelling preachers can stay there or in their house 100 yards away. What about that?
They also bought a marquee big enough for 200 people, so we can hold mini festivals and his wife is making a big effort to tell the rest of the 200 strong Indian community to come every Sunday when we start, to the programs. They agreed to have a good old fashioned prasadam feast at 1pm every Sunday preceded by arti, kirtan lecture and so on. Like it used to be in the early days.
Without much doing I also received a donation of two cases of Bhagavad Gitas, from a very nice person in London simply for mentioning it, totally amazing.
I did not do anything, except holding (seemingly) unsuccessful programs and was steady doing so, wishing for things to develop a little further, like more people coming and I was always disappointed when no one came. Still it was blissful and a very good experience.
I ordered cards and some T-shirts with “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga” printing on it, and began distributing a newsletter via email and some printed copies, to local people. I also advertise in the local newspaper for free under the “what’s on” page. I opened a pay pal bank account for donations and gave it to the Indians (no laksmi yet)
To get subscriptions for the newsletter, I simply went from door to door told people about it and collected their emails. I also did book tables at outdoor sales in the local neighbourhood, just for service, hoping that something will come from it but not really believing that it will. Then before Italy some Indian couples said they want to be proper members of The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga and I am thinking this will increase in time. So we should not think that we have to establish a particular movement with rigid authorities and impossible to achieve goals (for our minds) e.g. Simply a small preaching program under the title International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society will do and then see what develops. However, If what happens so far does not develop, I simply go back to the old room I rented and start all over. I simply go along and think to myself this is Srila Gurudevas mercy .
If the plans are to big, we will stop before we start, it will look to much, to high, to far, to impossible for most of us and we will think “what will become of my Bhajan if all I do is managing and maintaining” This is true, so we should not burden our minds with goals we may not be able to comprehend and waste sleep over it, such things are beyond most of us anyway.
This is why I suggest to put all these thoughts of something similar in structure to lets say Iskcon aside and simply continue opening small preaching centres all over the World wherever we are, under the umbrella of the name “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga” mainly to be able to function within the law of the land and take advantage of the benefits this brings. We do have charity status and number already.
So it’s already happening, but because Srila Gurudeva wants the umbrella name “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga” we simply add this title to it. I don’t think we need to create something new, just increase what we are already doing under this name and try taking on individual responsibility wherever we are for preaching. Then according to Krishna wishes everything will develop or not, all we need to do is making our selves available for service and don’t be attached to the result.
The safe guard against irresponsible activity and a negative outcome maybe that if a devotee wants to act under the name “The International Society For Pure Bhakti Yoga”, then his good character and intent has to be verified somehow beforehand by a trustworthy source . He has to follow certain guidelines and for this we need to lay out a manifesto which sets the rules. Not that anyone can just do so and cause havoc to Srila Gurudevas good name.
BV Nemi Maharaja has recently produced a Mission statement and I took the initiative to amend it slightly, only adding some words, but here it is again.
Here is the present 2010
Mission statement “which I am sure is still not final”
Of the International Society for Pure Bhakti Yoga.
Our mission is to please Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and all our Vaishnava acaryas by following their teachings, which are summarized below.
* Understanding and realizing our relationship of service to Sri Guru-Gaura-Radha-Krishna with love and affection;
* To establish friendship and service to devotee members with love and affection;
* To share Krishna consciousness to others with love and affection.
Our specific commitments are:
1. To teach universal non-sectarian Vaisnava spiritual principles and practice in society;
2. To give education and training in bhakti-yoga To Sri Sri Radha and Krishna.
3. To publish and distribute transcendental literature, digital media and give audio-visual presentations.
4. To bring people closer to each other in relation to Sri Sri Radha & Krishna.
5. To perform and encourage the Congregational chanting of Lord Krishnas Holy Names The Hare Krishna Maha Mantra.
6. To establish temples and maintain / restore places of the Lord’s pastimes in India.
7. To practice teach and encourage simple and natural living.
8. To help solving the problems of this World and to bring peace to all people, by teaching the principles of Bhakti Yoga.
9. To establish the Yuga Dharma of the chanting of The Holy Names of God Krishna.
10. To promote The Bhagavad Gita translation and all other books by Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja for the benefit of mankind.
11. To be instrumental in encouraging positive interfaith relations between the different religions of this World.
Dear Devarsit Prabhu,
Dandavat Pranams. Thank you so much for your thoughtful comments. Your story is quite remarkable. Congratulations. I admire your courage and tenacity. Perhaps you should write an article for sevateams website. I think many devotees will be quite happy to hear about your preaching success and will get strength and inspiration from learning how you started.
I agree with you that grassroots preaching is a great foundation for spreading the movement as this type of nama-hatta preaching is what Sri Nityananda Prabhu Himself exemplified. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur also opened a marketplace for the holy name at Surabhi Kunja and from there did so much preaching in this style.
There are other areas of a society that would strengthen and benefit all the local preaching efforts. For example, book publishing, internet publishing, the major festivals in India, education for our young, care for the elderly, etc. require a more strategic larger scale international effort. By having these benefits the local communities can be proud to refer their new members to the benefits of the ‘greater society’. When Srila Gurudeva was thinking of a society, he was envisioning the type of preaching you are doing as well as the international projects, all insure his legacy with continue.
For your information the official name of our fledgling society (which has been registered as such in the US and UK) is the International Pure Bhakti Yoga Society. To give a consistent reliable message to the world as we develop, it is probably best to all use the same name.
I would love to hear more about your future developments, it sounds very exciting. Best of luck to you and please keep in touch.
Vaisnava dasanudas,
Radhakanta das
radhakanta@bhaktiprojects.org
Thanks for this wonderful report Devarsirat prabhu. Dandavat pranams.
After receiving the same mission statement from BV Nemi Maharaja I did point out to him that he had mistakenly taken the incorrect name that was selected for Gurudeva’s society as Radhakanta prabhu has indicated.
I am about to release a video recording of Srila Gurudeva to confirm the same for the benefit of all the devotees wordlwide.
All glories to your preaching activities, however big or small, but always in a serving mood.
Yrs, Raghava
Dear Radhakanta Prabhu
Dandavat Pranams to you to
I think because of the ever present danger of the manifestations of authoritarianism, envy, pride, pratista, greed, attachment, lack of faith and so on, we should be incredibly simple caring and affectionate in our approach from every angle and never ever impose total authority over anyone.
Certainly NOT put in charge over others, those with big controlling egos, “shudder”
A good manager is always humble, helpful and personal and only mature personalities should be chosen for any managerial services. Maybe guidelines can be set in this respect. May be in our society someone in good standing for at least three years, can become a manager of some kind. After some time he could be voted in again or voted out. We could look at Srila Prabhupadas will and take some things out of it and implement it the way He wanted it, like the above.
For spiritual authority we should understand the principles of the disciplic succession and Guru Tatva and try follow to the book whatever comes down. What has never been done in Iskcon we should do straight away now and create the proper understanding between managerial posts and spiritual authority.
No managerial post can function unchecked and independent for obvious reasons and for important decisions, devotee panels are required to look at the issue of he day making a joint decision.
Like in my case, I am in touch with Srila Gurudeva for any decision I make, nothing I do is unauthorised. I can suggest something and it is either okay or not. This makes me feel free from any feeling of big responsibility and I know that Krishna is the controller, leading the way. All I have to do is look after my bhajan and eat lots of halava and sweet rice, almost a daily comforting eating activity now since Italy, I am depressed, because Srila Gurudeva will not travel any more and I have travelling difficulties, so I doubt I will see Him ever again.
One of the great teaching from Srila Gurudeva is, that Genuine Love and affection is the teaspoon of sugar by which we can take any medicine and become healthy.
Danadavat Pranams Devarsirat Prabhu , very very inspiring and hope giving narration .My experience is similar though on a much smaller scale.Krishna helps me in so many small ways moment by moment, helps me do so many things I cant do , fixes mistakes I make .It is wonderful to hear others are having the same experience and more so .Truly Krishna is our friend , guardian and well wisher and carries what we lack and preserves what we have .
Radhe Radhe !! [mathuranatha das Australia]
Dandadavat Pranams Mathuranatha Prabhu
A big haribol from the UK
I dont know if anyone has a database for all of Srila Gurudevas books/ lectures/ conversations etc , but if all the instances where Srila Gurudeva requested devotees to make a preaching centre , math or mandir where compiled it would be quite convincing .
Unless and until a critical mass of devotees become convinced that it will be good for their Bhakti [and pleasing to Srila Gurudeva ] to have their own local center or math its not going to happen .And unless or until the substantial majority of Srila Gurudevas designated preachers become convinced and start pushing the concept its not going to happen .
Srila Gurudeva has said He wants a society formed so Parakrams , book printing and distribution etc goes on even if he is not here .The implication is that it may well not go on without Him.And the window of opportunity is rapidly closing [almost 15 years since Gurudeva came west] .So if we dont get it together soon we never will .Srila Gurudevas society could easily evaporate into nothing .No centers = no congregation =no one to pay the sannyasies air fares = no functional society = diminishing book printing and diminishing parakrams etc .
The mood is changing amongst the grass roots devotees from one of ” eventually they[or we] will get it together” to “its not going to happen ,Gurudeva is getting ready to leave, all hell will break loose and there will be nothing”
Neglect a disease too long it becomes life threatening .We are reaching that stage .In the the uphoria of Srila Gurudevas all conquering blazing glory we have neglected to distil the essence of his teachings into an enduring cultural format .The unthinkable is now a looming possibility .His sanga could scatter in the four winds ,his moods to be found only in the remaining books ,no longer in a living vibrant society .
Non action is a non option
Radhe Radhe [mathuranatha das australia]
We need a Society for things we cant do on our own .
Like the Yuga Dharm– pretty hard to do conversational chanting on your own , without a congregation .
Like for organising for advanced and affectionate devotees to come to our area , stay some where and give classes some where .
Like for publishing and printing and shipping Srila Gurudevas books to us . Like organising Parakrama .
Like doing preaching programs — hard to advertise , cook , do kirtan , give lecture , serve out prasadam , talk to guests ,clean up all on your own .
So many things we cannot do on our own , or at least no very efficiently or completely .
So “do we want International Society “? Its not really optional its a must have .Radhe Radhe!!
THIS sounds like a very acceptable basis for a Society, prabhu.
“On the other hand, in the last 10 years fewer resources have been put into building devotional communities outside of India. The result is that we have no major temples, preaching centers, schools or communities outside India. Except for ‘going to see Srila Gurudeva at the next festival or in India’; most western devotees seem to have little enthusiasm for anything else. Some persons categorize our sanga as a band of ‘gypsies’ with no real structure”
I believe, step by step everything will become manifested but not artificially, it will be natural process.
It may take some years, maybe many years but it is going to be healthy process of transformation.
It is already happening, devotess are becoming more open minded, welcoming, tolerant and so on.
On the West, many people (me included) do not want institution.
Why?
I am married person. I am affraid that institution will destroy my life if I will belong to it.
On the other side, if I do not belong to it, I feel FREE.
I work and see KARMI people and how is their life.
I feel some kind of security with them. They do not have so many problems as devotees have. most of people with whom I work are married, having houses, loving families and so on. Divorce rate is low, very low compare to vaisanav sanga.
Do they belong to any institution?
No
And seems like they do OK.
I believe that the best way how to establish society is to not to establish it at all. There is no need for something artificial like a foreign body.
Unless of course , it is going to be spiritual institution first opened in our hearts and then manifested externally in some sort of institution.
i believe this is the way and it will be natural process rather then compulsory artificial one like in ISCKON
!Radhe Radhe!
Thanks for your comments Murali prabhu.
It is quite natural to have these kind of concerns, considering the world of exploitation we live in and the history of similar spiritual organizations that seems to create more trauma than enlightened humans. Still our Srila Gurudeva has ordered that there shall be an International Society to further the mission of Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu and our Guru-varga.
By facilitating a platform for sharing ideas on how to best manifest this and shape the future of Srila Gurudeva’s sanga we hope to bring about a process of open communication and democratic decision making.
The forum can be accessed here:http://ipbys.ideascale.com
Yrs, Raghava
Jaya Srila Gurudeva!
In the past a Society was a strengthening agent that assisted the members to get things done according to the common goal – nowadays the general impression is that Society, particularly a religious society, is a hiding place for weak people…
just a thought
What do we want Srila Gurudeva’s Society to be?? A hiding place or a seeking place?
playing hide and seek?
dandavat pranams.. i remember a quote from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati”.That a spiritual Society without Sad Guru will commit activities that will make the hardened criminals cringe.”When i said previously that i was happy with the present situation i was refering to the society within our hearts.I was personally attacted to Srila Gurudeva and Srila Gurudeva sanga because of this aspect which i had not seen any were up to this point.An institutional society can be easy to corrupt,infiltrate,and mislead.
In our Gurudeva’s sanga there are so many quiet achievers (or silent workers as Srila Prabhupada lovingly called them), devotees who are just getting on with fulfilling Srila Gurudeva’s various desires in a non attention-seeking way (or like lambs at home and lions on the chase). Also there are devotees acting as leaders who are mainly just giving, lifting, encouraging and blessing.
Does this sound like the society within our hearts that you mention Sanatana prabhu?
Sounds like good idea but my understanding is simple.
We already have International Bhakti Yoga Society so there is no need to ESTABLISH any Bhakti Yoga Society institution.
What for? For whom?
There is so many institutions all over the world; religious and goverment ones.
Both of them are against PURE BHAKTI.
Pure bhakti does not go alongs with soul(atma)due to its material nature.
Again, International Pura Bhakti Society is already established by Srila Gurudeva, but if you add institution to it, it might work for some time but bring opposite results than expected.
Why not try to make our society a-institutional?
But answer which coming to my mind is:
- many people need it, I might not but many need to have it.
So, what is going to happen next?
THis people which do not need it, will ignore it and look for sadhu sanga somewhere else in the future..
Do I am right?
Is history going to repeat again?
Murali
Hari Bol RadhaKanta Prabhu, Without structure, censorship, or discipline our thoughts run rampant on automatic, (Jill Bolte Taylor, my stroke of insight). No matter what secondary ( daiva varnashrama) obligations are required to link our multi-layered Family so it can blossom, maths (communities) are essential. This we have heard from Sadhu and Sastra. As an iternational society endevoring to follow their Gurus orders, I`m hopeful that those who are also hopeful, will want to live in such a society, whereby love, respect, and a heartfelt desire to fall in love with God (Radha-Gopinatha)is their main objective. In this way, persons who have been relieved of their fears, can help guide by behavior structured to help those who also want this lifestyle, ( a life of devotion).
The time I spent in India has forever changed my life. I am greatful for those who have inspired me along the way. I`m confident that many many more such inspiring vaisnavas are present through-out our sanga that I have not met. Thank you all for creating a forum in which those who aspire and dream about living as a family, can manifest Maths that can embrace and make room for those still suffering the ups and downs of “I and Mine” consciousness. I`m hopeful that we can manifest individual Maths and communities that are abodes of devotion and communication for future devotees. Damodara Dasa
Hare Krsna, dandavat pranama to all participants in this conversation.
Since Radhakanta prabhu’s first post, I have been following with interest, as the development of Vaisnava community has been something that has interested me for many years. When I get time, (soon, I hope) I will send in my own posting; and I will certainly be an avid follower of the online communications platform that you organise, Raghava Pandit prabhu.
In service to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva,
Bhadra dasi (from New Zealand)
Sounds like a good idea. Let me work on this end to putting the bits and pieces in place, i.e. the What, Why and How and take it from there.
Radhey….
Yrs
Raghava
Just a humble suggestion :- to get more exposure you [we] could put something on Face Book , Pure Bhakti , GoGet , Sanga Space ,Seva Teams, etc Hari Bol
The ideas forum does have its own FB page now, on : http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=136515396376835#!/pages/My-Sanga-Idea/131592023546319?ref=ts
should be http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=136515396376835#!/pages/My-Sanga-Idea/131592023546319?ref=ts
Hare Krishna and dandavat pranams Radhakantha prabhu ji and to all who are participating (by commenting or as a reader) in this healthy and much needed open dialogue.
As the webservant of this forum I have some suggestions for facilitating a work group to distill, condense and execute ideas towards the fulfillment of Srila Gurudeva’s desire that a society should be formed.
This online work group will include tools for research and information gathering, developing surveys to solicit ideas from the worldwide sanga and give devotees a voice to express what every individual is looking for in such an intended Society.
Also, from speaking with many devotees at festivals and online it appears that actually there IS a longing for more structure (at least from an operational viewpoint) in order to serve our Gurudeva’s mission more effectively. (Think for example of the “chaos” at the registration booth upon arrival at the/any festival and devotees coming up with solutions, … if only we could do things this or that way…). This work group can help develop and facilitate a process for identifying what would be a workable structure based on general research (from other non-profit, volunteer-based and spiritual organizations) combined with data collected from internal web surveys conducted within the sanga.
What in the world is more beautiful then a well “orchestrated” kirtan with all of the musical instruments playing harmoniously in tune and aligned to bring pleasure to the Lord and His devotees? During the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu at the Ratha-yatra festival, the different kirtan parties were organized in such ways that they would increase the ecstasy of Gauranga and raise the consciousness of the entire universe!
By creating a communications platform for gathering, sharing, voting on and planning on executing ideas for the fulfillment of Srila Gurudeva’s mission we are already affecting the rise of a culture of open discussion and democracy in your sanga.
What do you all think of this idea?
Again, thanks to Radhakanta prabhu for initiating this dialogue.
Yrs, Raghava Pandit das
Dandavat Pranams Raghava Pandit prabhu,
sounds really good , I’m sure many devotees would appreciate you organising that and will look forward to it manifesting with optimistic anticipation .
Any anticipated time frame “this online work group/ communications platform” will be up and running?
[mathurantha das from australia]
Radhe Radhe!!
Thanks Mathuranatha ji. Dandavat pranams!
Such a system would not take very long to roll out. What I would like to do first is to see how many participants we can expect. If a good number of devotees think it is conceptually a good idea, we will introduce it at once.
Soon, Raghava
Dandavat Pranams Radhakanta Prabhu .
A long overdue discussion , thank you .Possibly two main problems :-lack of a clear conception of what Srila Gurudea wants and lack of a strong desire to implement what Srila Gurudeva wants .
One possible solution is for the minority of devotees who do have a strong desire to implement what Srila Gurudeva wants [and who agree upon what that is] ,is to form a society within a society .And as the small seeds of the new society become strong and happy and the wonderful mood becomes obvious to the larger society , gradually the culture will change ..It could be organic and spontaneous.Those that have love and affection and appreciation for each other and an exclusive desire to full fill Gurudvas vision can work together harmoniously in each location .Gradually some from the larger [non functional and fragmented ] society will join and take up that mood .In that way the mood remains intact and the new entrants take up the new mood .Otherwise if we attempt to include everyone immediately we will still have the same situation.A society with the majority of its members who are self-centred ,independent , and take more than they contribute to the society .
The opposite approach may also be considered:-.We have a society now but it is dysfunctional .The majority of the members are functionally sub-prime and by their association diluting the effectiveness of those attempting to manifest a functional society .Like many operational societies we could have a hierarchy or an aristocracy to engage those unwilling or unable to function spontaneously . Whether by peer pressure , legislation or force the morals ,values, and expectations of our society could be articulated , disseminated and inculcated into all the members to the exclusion of the old materialistic values .
Apparently Srila Gurudeva used to sometimes beat the bramacharies and even now can be very verbally heavy with his near and dear .Of course its always with love and affection , but to have a functional society standards and values must be strongly established .Clear and explicit guidelines as to what our society stands for . Then everyone knows what is sanctioned and rewarded by our society and what will lead to dishonour and rejection. Perhaps a formal code of behaviour and the ethics we stand for , or a motto , or Upadesavali etc. Like -”Our society’s members in good standing will ,rather die than not :- rise early , worship the diety , eat frugally , dress simply , engage incessant in nama seva and menial Guru seva etc etc And the lazy , decadent seekers of wealth ease and comfort will be overtly encouraged to reform or decamp.These days”tough love ” does seem to be displacing “never say no” in raising children – maybe a more traditional society model would be better than the current lass-fair unstructured model .
Please dont mind , I am just exploring different points of view as per a robust discussion .I,m not attached to any idea or out come and am wide open to Guru and Krishna manifesting a new , wonderful and unique solution to the “society dilemma”
” Haribolo ”
Aspiring for the mercy of Sri Guru and Sri Gouranga
the fallen and despicable Mathuranatha Das
Returning to your definition Radhakanta prabu, ‘Society’ means an advanced civilization or a group of persons who cooperate together for a particular purpose. Presumably our only purpose is Gurudeva’s purpose . To assist Him to execute the mission he has come down from the spiritual world on .
So one approach could be to define the various things Srila Gurudeva is doing and wanting to be done .Like books translated /published /printed /distributed , centers opened /expanded, Harinama Sankirtan ,new persons joining our society etc , etc . Then do a world wide statistical study to ascertain which regional groups of devotees are being most successful at delivering a maximised outcome in those various areas . Then try an ascertain what they are doing to achieve that .Then define their models into a formula and replicate it around the world .
Radhe Radhe!!
The opposite approach would be to first envision our totally ideal society in minute glorious detail .And then with the vision full worked , fill in the in between detailed steps to get there .
Like in every locality a fully functional mandir . Gorgeously worshipped deities , Large bramachari/sannyass ashram , printing press , gurukula , ladies ashrama , Harinama sankirtan and book distribution parties going out in every direction , and surrounded by many homes of devotee householders attending the math 2-3 x daily and all devotees blissfully engaged in Takurji seva , Harinama Sankirtan , book printing /distribution etc etc .
Or whatever we decide . But once the preferred model /template is conceived and agreed upon , then the implementation stage begins .
just the australian mathurantha again
Dear Mathuranatha Prabhu, thank you again for your comments. This discussion has been going on within the Bhakti Trust for years, but we could never reach a consensus to act decisively for the benefit of the greater sanga. Now certain members are continuing these discussions to see what interest there is amongst other devotees. We are looking for thinking devotees that are mature and experienced and who want to discuss the social issues we face today in the sanga. We seek those who have something intelligent to contribute and are willing to listen to each other.
We could explore the concept of ‘a society within a society’ as you recommend, as it is always practical to start from a core and expand out. You are certainly right that there are all levels of interest, dedication and involvement and not everyone is going to be involved in the same way. So, to have leadership, however it may take its form, is important.
We could also explore how to build a lay society, something which has not been considered, with lay preachers (ministers) who effectively nurture, educate, counsel and lead their local small communities (ie. nama-hatta). This is a practice that is common amongst most churches. The lay ‘ministers’ are trained through seminars and courses designed to prepare them as local ‘leaders’ or ministers to effectively deal with the diverse congregation.
Even our travelling preachers could benefit from this type of formal training. At present there is no specific formal training for our preachers to help them when they first start their ‘travelling preaching career’. They have learned the philosophy from hearing hari-katha and may be renounced. The rest they are expected to figure out on their own as they go. Unfortunately such learning can be at the expense of others. They may not be quipped with the proper interpersonal, social and counseling skills to deal with a variety of circumstances they will encounter. They mean well, but it may just be outside their realm of experience of knowledge or ability. There are examples of travelling preachers who preach about the uselessness of family life and material enjoyment to an audience of young grhastas with children. How will that benefit the audience, when in their stage they need to hear about becoming grhasta-vaisnavas and raising KC children. Or, a travelling preacher may encourage devotees to come to India for parikramas while doing nothing to help those local communities develop their congregations, temples, schools, etc.
It is evident there are strengths and weaknesses of our current social model. What we have has arisen naturally out of the following around Srila Gurudeva. There has been no conscious thought or planning for a society. If we want to improve on what we have we will have to look at it objectively and as you point out consider Srila Gurudeva’s desire and mood in trying to improve it.
Force will not work. It goes against everything that Srila Gurudeva has exhibited in his dealings with us. ‘Tough Love’ can be effective only after a relationship is developed and is strong (like between parent and child, guru-disciple, or close friends). If the closeness is not there, then being ‘tough’ will have the opposite result, it will turn the other person away.
Gurudeva talks about how Krsna is controlled by the love of Srimati Radhika. If we aspire to be her maidservant, then our love should become sweet and powerful like hers so that it can control Krsna and His servants. To be ‘controlled by love’ happens when one person agrees to be controlled by another due to loving surrender. It is not forced. How can this ‘love and affection’ be implemented on the social platform? Our leaders must exhibit this love and affection by example and precept, not just precept. Then the mass of devotees will follow and also imbibe this mood.
This is a big discussion. You have brought up a lot of good points and thus spurred on this lengthy response. Thank you for your insightful comments and the dialogue.
Dear Radhakanta Prabhu, I have been wishing this subject would be discussed for the last 14 years .Now all my stored up ideas are bursting out , so I do apologise for the sheer volume and diverse nature of my accumulated perspectives on this extremely important subject you have so kindly raised .
The following quote from Srila Gurudeva really clarifies for me the essence of WHAT needs to be facilitated for the sanga to naturally evolve and mature .
Srila Gurudeva :-”It was mentioned earlier that smarana is the primary limb of raganuga-bhakti. But one should understand that smarana is dependent on kirtana. In the present age of Kali, it is the practice of kirtana that grants the eligibility to enter into bhajana, because as all the sastras proclaim, kirtana has monarchy over all the other limbs of bhakti and bestows the highest result.”
So we need somewhere[ in each location ] where Kirtan is going on at least at mangala arati and sundar arati every day ,so devotees can join the kirtan and remember Krishnas pastimes .Thats the bottom line :- congegational chanting= smaran of krishna’s lilas = Bhakti.And so if Bhakti is increasing in our sangha our society will automatically become more functional .
Pretty much the math program or Prabhupads “iskcon sandwich’ [full morning and evening program with Guru seva in between ] needs to be actively advocated , facilitated , implemented, and maintained and supported whatever the cost
Most humans are social beings and need to belong to an identifiable cultural group and attend cultural activities at THEIR cultural center .Now a large proportion of Srila Gurudvas disciples in this area {Murwillumbah]have either re joined mainstrem society or regularly attend ISKcon.Thats the increasingly heavy cost of not establishing our own public places of worship – we gradually loose more and more of our members .
Radhe Radhe [the fallen and miserly australian mathuranatha das]
Dear Mathuranatha Prabhu, Dandavats. Thank you for all your good comments. I can see from your verbosity that you are interested in the topic and have alot to offer. I agree with you wholeheartedly that to have the practical vehicle like temples and an organization it will faciliate the bhakti practices of sravana, kirtana, krsna smaranam. Without that facility, it will still go on, but in a more limited way.
My natural question to you is what happened in Australia to prevent the devotees from coming together and making that happen. If you think it is appropriate to reply in this forum, please do, otherwise feel free to e-mail me directly at radhakanta@bhaktiprojects.org.
I appreciate your enthisiasm and conviction. I can also share with you some of my thoughts as to the reason for our inabilities in the bay area also to establish a solid preaching center/temple, even though we tried and there was no lack of finances.
Laaks and Laaks of Sashtang Dandavat Pranams in the dust at the lotus feet of all the past , present , and future Vaisnavas. All Glories to Sri Sri Guru-Gouranga-Gandavika- Giridhari-Radha-Vinoda- bihariji ki jaya ! Srila Gurudeva ki jaya !
In my humble , conditioned, opinion , we have failed to create a distinct society . Distinct from both the global materialistic society at large and from ISKcon.This is possibly because we have failed to create a distinct culture to which our sanga,s members feels it is a part of or at least identifies with and aspires to belong to.
If we had succeeded in establishing a large number of maths ,like the Gaudia math and Iskcon did that may well have given us the cultural identity we needed for a society to form .
The culture in the maths would have been distinctly unique and quite different from the society at large and Iskcons culture also .In the maths a whole different culture would exist . Renunciation [as opposed to materialism] , exclusive nama-bajan seva and vaisnava seva [as opposed to working hard for economic development and sense gratification ] ,residents always wearing traditional vaisnava clothing tilac etc, rising early etc etc . A whole different culture for the larger sanga of devotees to identify with and aspire to emulate and implement in their lives .A feeling of a distinct cultural identity , something to base a society upon .
Unfortunately ,at the moment our sanga resembles the society at large to an uncomfortable degree :- aversion to taking responsibility and working hard for the good of the society and just wanting to party and holiday.The result is an itinerant , festival, ecstasy crew with no infrastructure to support and maintain our devotional practices in between festivals [parties ] and parakram [holidays]And nothing for new people to attend or feel a part of .
Thank you Radha kanta Prabhu for raising this very important topic .
The wicked and miserly mathurantha das
Dandavat Pranams wise and benevolent Mathuranatha Prabhu. I believe you are the American Mathuranatha (ACBS) from your language. Is that right?
Your comments are like a waterfall of insight and inspiration. Thank you so much for sharing. I am glad that someone else is willing to speak out and give an honest assesment to where we are at as a society and what are the options for moving forward in a positive way. Well said.
Sorry to disappoint but its only the mad and excentric mathurantha from Australia
Dandavat Pranams to you Sudarsana Prabhu. Thank you for your relevant and good comments. I appreciate that you have pointed out we should not allow ourselves to be disabled by past bad experiences nor let those get in the way of future progress. It is natural that past experiences will influence us, but if we learn from them and maintain a positive attitude those experiences becomes beneficial. They are the building blocks of future success. It is said that any successful person has failed many times (and many times more than unsuccessful persons, because they don’t give up but persevere until they succeed).
I appreciate your enthusiasm and determination to be part of a solution and are willing to use your intelligence to try and come up with ways to be successful in fulfilling our Gurudeva’s desire for a functional Society.
Dandavat pranams. Radhakanta Prabhu.
Though many of us have been scarred and bruised by our experiences in ISKCON, this is all part of the purification process and we would be wise not to think in terms of success or failure.
As it is the desire of our beloved Gurudeva, Srila Narayana Maharaja to establish an International Society this must also be the desire of all the previous Acharyas and the Supreme Lord, therefore this should be our focus also.
It is imperative that we “rack our brains” and try to fulfill the desire of guru and I am certain that can only result in our success in whatever form that may take.
Dasanudas Sudarsana
Hari Bol!
Society is fine !
Have it and enjoy it………and grow and prosper!
It’s how you treat other people “WHO DOES NOT BELONG TO YOUR SOCIETY!”
DONOT FORGET THE “GREAT SCHISM OF ANOTHER CULTURE!” OF “WHO IS THE WHO!”
Syama
Dandavatws Sanatan Prabhu. Thank you for your comment. Its good that you are satisfied with our society. You are correct to say that out of bhajan everything can manifest. No one is suggesting creating a society out of mental concoction. This idea of a society came from the pure mind of Srila Gurudeva, not any conditioned soul.
I would challenge you to consider service to Vaisnavas in this apparent ‘external’ way of a society is also a form of bhajan, or worship of Hari, Guru and Vaisnavas. To serve the order of Guru is bhajan, and to fulfill his desires is the way that we can prepare ourselves for pure bhajan of sravana, kirtana, krsna smaranam. Without serving and pleasing Sri Guru, we cannot enter bhajan (yasya prasada bhagavat prasado, yasya prasada na gati kutho pi).
The purpose of a devotional Society therefore is not an imposition on bhajan as a reclusive devotee may think, but is favorable for bhajan, especially for all the new persons and neophyte devotees, which make up the majority of the members of Society. For the more advanced devotees who are preachers, it gives the opportunity to serve Vaisnvas. This is the inclination of the madhyama adhikaris.
Of course if you have entered a mature high level of bhakti and renunciation, then to do reclusive bhajan in Vrindavan is also acceptable. However, this level is not possible for most devotees. So, if you feel satisfied in doing this for yourself, then it is wonderful for you. I wish you all the best in your bhajan.
Dandavats Radhakantha Prabhu.. Thank you.If Srila Gurudeva wants this then we must do it.
Dandavats Radhakantha Prabhu I like our sanga the way its now.Out of bhajan every thing will be created.A mind created Society is almost an imposition.
Dandavats, Radhakantha Prabhu! Thanks for writing this very thoughtful article…I really enjoyed reading it. One of my biggest concerns would be regarding succession. Does Srila Gurudeva plan to appoint a single succeeding acarya or a multiple board similar to the GBC? Although no one may like to think about this, in lieu of what happened after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance it definitely merits careful preparation and clearly spelled-out planning. It will greatly affect many of the questions and scenarios raised in your article.
Haribol Prabhu,
Thank you for doing all the service you are doing to our Srila Gurudeva.
If you don’t know by now, I am not an avid contributor to “our” society. That doesn’t mean that I don’t support the efforts of anyone who is trying to work toward or for one.
Societies are a necessary evil in this world.
On the positive they can:
1. create an outlet for those who don’t know or aren’t sure how to server there srila Gurudeva.
2. create what looks like a unified front, thus pulling outsiders in by sheer vast numbers and non-alienation.
3. create a sence of belonging and fellowship for it’s members.
4. organize preaching to reach more people more of the time
On the nagative they can:
1. create sectarianism (this is the opposite of vaisnavism)
2. create power struggles and fighting between members
3. water down saddanta in order to appeal to masses
4. confuse serving a society (which is an inanimate abstract concept) vs serving a devotee.
So these are just a few general ideas. The number one problem with a “spiritual society” is that it is almost impossible to get people who are advanced or pure viasnavas in charge of it. And when inpure sources are trying to speak for a pure source, it is not rocket science to know what happpens next.
Another thing is that societies require money. And when someone has money, then it always seems their voice in a society is almost always heard and listened to, for better or worse.
In conclusion: A society is a double edged sword, so don’t expect everyone to jump aboard. It has very great things that it can accomplish in a short span of time. But in the long run it is almost always corrupted in this material world. Therefore we are all (IPBYS, ISKCON, Gaudiya Math…and so un) under the society of Krsna, Mahaprabhu, and our Gurudeva who represents a line of Gurus, and never stands alone. This society can’t be corrupted, but any off-shoots of this broad society…well I wish them all good luck and God speed.
Jai Sri Radhe!
Goloka Vrindavana Das
A monkey in human clothes
Hari Bol !! It is always a pleasure to read about the concern and desire of your good self to bring our sanga together in the spirit of parental concern. I think it is a great idea for any project in any part of the world to have someone interested in helping to shape the individual who shows interest in getting involved, instead of assuming that if someone shows interest, that they require no guidance or inspiration. I really like the idea of people coming together in honest ways, helping each other to heal by the austerity of shaping each individual by giving the time required,this can be viewed as another form of japa, a meditation of love. This is key for the wholistic welfare of all who truly aspire to live as a diverse family who value relationships and respect. Gaura Hari Bol.
Damodara das
Thank you Damodara Prabhu for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly with you that it is the responsibility of our society, and senior mature devotees to help educate and smoothly integrate new persons into our large spiritual family. If we do that, then not only will they feel loved and welcomed, but they will be mentored by us to do the same for others and on and on. This will grow the community of devotees unlimtedly. Multi-lvel KC.
In order to establish the international society that you mention, good capable managers are requiered. A clear structure of of standarized teaching is also required. Because we understand some purpose to establish parameters following the gurus way of thinking we think we can go ahead and create an international society but we have not the slithest idea of what managing is all about. In iskcon it proved to be a failure. It is a difficult thing. I wish you the best.
Thank you Prahladantha Prabhu. Points well made. You are right good management is key, and Srila Gurudeva’s style of management through love and affection and a ‘no controlling’ mood, based on pure bhakti is a very high platform.
I disagree with you that ISKCON is a failure. It has its limitations according to the adhikara of the persons leading it and due to their level of bhakti-sukriti. They are preaching according to their ability. It is beneficial. But we have to go further and do better. That is the benefit of having lived in both worlds.
I also think that if our intentions are good and we are in sadhu sanga and under guidance, then our attempt to create a society for the purpose of helping others will be beneficial, even if we are not expert. Krsna gives intelligence on how to serve to those that are sincere. Tesam satata yuktanam bhajatam priti purvakam dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te.
From the Worst Devotee in all three worlds. In my mind, not bad, in practise absolutely lousy, not worth nothing.
I think in past times, different groups that faught amongst each other, or had factions and sects, for universal changes united under one roof, until those changes were implemented, but then they all went back to their own groups, but the positive side of this is that they left the bridges open to the views of those other communities. Remember the world effort to stop Vietnam War, how many opposing groups came together came together unanimously to create one set of changes, end the war and that they did. Gay groups in Australia who previously had factions and different ideologies and never mixed, in order to change laws, united under one roof to change those laws back in the 80s. Now the laws are changed, those groups have all gone back to their own ways, but the bridges of communication are now open between those different, sometimes isolated groups have been laid and inter communication is an open channel. Now we have the internet, instead of factions and splintered groups playing tug of war, lay the bridges, unite under one roof of sanatana dharma, then the world might have a chance, otherwise we will be all swimming in a six hundred foot deep layer of corruption, oil and karmi karma, so thick no one can survive this.
In my heart, I can’t see any other way for this world than to unite under that one roof of sanatana dharma and pure prema bhakti. All other ways have totally failed.
At least with bhakti, there is a chance. A very good chance.
HARE KRISHNA from Sri Govardhan Dham,
my sincere pranams to all my very dear Godbrothers and Godsisters truly aspiring to fulfill the desires of our most worshipable Srila Gurudeva. WHAT SRI GURU ADVISES AND INSTRUCTS IS THE ULTIMATE BENEDICTION FULLY AUSPICIOUS, because He has the Divine vision of Past Present and future. So it should not be any doubt…..
Thank you for sharing……JAYA SRILA GURUDEVA! JAYA SRILA PRABHUPADA!
Thank you so much. This gives me hope!
Thank u Radhakantaji for this reflections!
After reading your text I decided just now to translate the Interview of Pure Bhakti Yoga Society with Srila Gurudeva to portuguese. I´ve also translated a msg of Brajanath prabhuji about this subject. I will try to see how I can advertise all my Gurudeva projects as part of Society. I hope that with this we can create a strong identity in our family as I see at ISKCON, Vrinda and so one.
Vancha-kalpa!
Dandavats. Jai Sri Sri Guru & Gaura
Very well written, Radhakanta Das ji. It may not be impossible that the individuals in our sangas can work together, but let’s not assume that independence is necesarily a bad thing. One of the hallmarks of a brahminical devotee is that he relies on Guru, Sadhu,&
Sastra but such a person also would rightly have an innate aversion to be led around blindly by the nose by any authoritarian despot who happens to be in charge of some local group or temple. Such a devotee would prefer to die than forsake doing what his own intuition
tells him is the right thing and favorable to bhakti. Hence, such persons may not necessarily live among the “renunciates” in ashrams. They nevertheless, may make good counselors.
Also, you make some good points about yukta vairagya. We see examples in Srila B.V. Narayan Mj Gurudev, that in considering someone for initiation he takes into consideration that person’s faith and potential rather than adhering to some dogmatic formula.
Srila ACBSP also took into account practical spirituality. As far as I know, he never sent anyone to tell the corn farmers of Latin America to shun making corn tortillas in favor of importing wheat
to make chapatis. Jaiva Dharma is the gold standard, but it behooves us to consider that each culture has its own valid naimitik
dharmas. I’m glad that Srila Prabhupad never pontificated that
there should be a world wide ban on tomatoes for months at a time
just because that’s the way its done in India.
aspiring servant, RD (acbsp) Miami
Dandavats Radhasyama Prabhu. Thanks for your appreciation and good comments. I love the analogies you make, very humorous and quite true. Independence is a great jewel isn’t it? Krsna has given it to us all as a precious gift and a wonderful quality that is in Him to the utmost degree. So, I appreciate it as well as variety. In our sanga we have both.
The obstacle is when that independence is misused. If there is seva without personal desire, and devotees are of like mindedness, then I would think there will be harmony and cooperation. Whenever there is too much self interest, then serving together becomes difficult. On some levels we should be able to find cooperation, otherwise, what is the practical value of all the beautiful lessons that our Gurudeva is giving us?
We have of course microcosms of ‘seva teams; who are doing well cooperating together, but nothing on a larger scale than that. Perhaps that is the way it is meant to be right now. For myself, I am a survivor of ISKCON and can easily retreat into a bhajan kutir ‘mode’. The reason I am even questioning and proding, is because Srila Gurudeva has some desire for a society, and I can also see the potential for its value.
So, we will see what will unfold in the years to come.
Sorry my email is relaxationmeditation at g mail com
Dear Radhakanta Prabhu
Please accept my dandavat pranams.
All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
please e be so kind and send me your email. I am just begiining a project in my home town and feel that i can get good advice from you.
I will write after Italy
Many thanks
ys Devarsirat das
radhakanta@bhaktiprojects.org. Happy to correspond with you.
Radhe Radhe
Koti Koti Pranam!
Who belong too or Who doesnot belong ?
That’s what the other “society asked you when you go there!”
I will nor mention their “acronym”……….
Syama
A Hare Krishna clarion call!
Srila Gurudeva’s desire for an international pure bhakti society will certainly be fulfilled.
One question: Is it meant to be a ‘community’ thing, a ‘management’ thing or simply on the basis of spiritual inspiration?
Why not use the internet for starters, that’s cheap.
It’s a bit like the Judean Peoples’ Front (or is that the Peoples’ Front of Judea) around here. Locally, we are a group of very ‘different’ individuals – that’s for sure – and we’re not quite sure how to celebrate that, despite all good instruction. In pure bhakti can we pray for miracles?
Thank you Subala Sakha Prabhu for your comments, quite aptly put a ‘Hare Krsna clarion call’. I like that. The society will be fulfilled, yes, and it is up the followers of Gurudeva to determine the quality of that society and how successful it will be. Regarding your question about what it is beant to be, I think it is all of the above. A community to share our bhakti, management by love and affection, and an inspiration and support to each others services.
We can use the internet, as this forum is doing, and all avenues of communication. Everything in the world is an extension of Krsna’s energy and is thus for His seva. Not just what is cheap, but also what is expensive. Krsna is not a pauper, neither are His devotees. Therefore, my emphasis of bhakti over renunciation. Nothing belongs to us, so we have nothing to renounce. Everything belongs to Krsna and everything can be used in His service.
Thanks for the dialogue.
It will help us to clarify the goal from the outset.
We can do this by reference to the instructions of our Srila Gurudeva, and of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
As far as I can understand, we’re working towards an international confederation of independently managed Vaisnava communities, each centred around a Mandir & Math. The size of the Math really doesn’t matter, as even very few serious and sincere bhaktas is sufficient to inspire a very large community of sadhakas, who in turn can help to inspire a much larger community of devotees.
There are many examples we can look to for lessons. The Catholic Church, which is very hierarchical; the Jewish diaspora, which is more personal in nature; and so on. The main thing is that we must always deal with one another in the proper Vaisnava way: giving kindness to those less advanced, exchanging friendship with those on the same platform of love of God, and respecting our seniors.
In relation to management I would like to relay a point that was told to me by a disciple of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada at Mayapur. He said, in short, that the primary and only qualification / role of a ‘Hare Krishna’ manager is to facilitate sadhu-sanga.
The longer explanation is that a pure sadhu is perfectly content living under a tree performing bhajan. But for the well-being of the people in general, and under the instructions of the Lord he may wish to uplift those around him who are suffering in ignorance. In a purely local situation there are few complications, but as more people come, our Sadhu will require a degree of organisation so that the pure vani of Mahaprabhu can be effectively broadcast, and to this end he might engage an assistant to help organise things. Such managers may or may not be pure bhaktas themselves. In fact it is highly most likely that they are not at all. But nevertheless they are assisting a pure sadhu to broadcast pure bhakti. That is their role and their only role and their limit. Bringing people to hear from sad-sadhu.
Now that sounds spot on to me. What do you think?
Thank you Subala Krsna Prabhu for your interesting and relative comments. This is the kind of dialogue I was hoping for. You are giving some valuable suggestions that could begin to create a model that works.
I agree with you that the purpose of a spiritual society is to foster sadhu-sanga, and in their association perform nama kirtan, bhagavat sravana, sri murti sraddhaya sevaya, and mathura vasa (the 5 principle angas of bhakti). So, temples or Maths are helpful for that. The society will have have additional social welfare functions like caring for the elderly, women, provide education for youth and all its members, counseling services, business services and networking, and whole range of other activities. These are necessary and are all in support of the main function of sadhu-sanga, as you point out.
You mention that management will most likely will be carried out by devotees who are not pure or advanced but should be in ‘anugatya’ or under the guidance of pure devotees. This is a very important point. This may be the main ingredient of failure of spiritual organizations who get ‘off track’ with their priorities, intentions or the way they deal with other vaisnavas. That is Daivi-Varnasrama, that the ksatriyas are under the brahmanas (true brahmanas, vaisnavas), thus they can manage properly.
Yes, I agree you are ‘spot on’ in this regard.
Identifying the proper model and coming to a consensus amongst the leading devotees is the first step. It will take some effort, time, discussions and finally alignment of purpose. The next step is to find ways that it can be practically implemented in the sanga. That is more challenging and will take even more effort. There is a lot of seva to be done to realize this goal, much more than blogs on an internet site. However, the internet is a fabulous tool for networking and information gathering. It is just one avenue to help identify persons who have an interest in being part of that, and generate ideas that start the consensus building.
Thank you for the dialogue.
Prabhuji, You lost me at ‘social welfare activities’.
Those living in the Math are there wholly and solely for guru-seva – which in today’s world will include some ‘highest welfare work’ for sure, with the “doing good” performed strictly to the highest principles.
If you mean to say that the members of the wider society of devotees are sane, sober and ‘big’ enough to conduct the kinds of activities you’ve mentioned, then certainly, that sounds excellent. But I want to make the point that the social welfare activities you propose should be established and go on as a by-product of association with pure bhaktas, and not set up as any kind of goal – as a natural by-product of association of pure bhaktas people may get inspired to do these kinds of things. Or where there is no Math, but there are pious people.
In short, if the goal, the main goal, the #1 goal without a second is not ‘anyabhilasita-sunyam’ then the Society of those dreams seems doomed from the start.
The evidence for my opinion is in the preaching and activities of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swamui Maharaja’s and of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja also. Daivi-varnashram is all very well but without suddha-bhaktas there is no ‘daivi’.
Dandavat Pranams Subal Krishna Prabhuji [from australia?]While I wish ,what you are perceiving ,was my perception also, sadly I dont share your admirable trusting simplicity . “As far as I can understand, we’re working towards an international confederation of independently managed Vaisnava communities, each centred around a Mandir & Math. “[quote from your reply]
After a decade and a half of Srila Gurudeva asking for a society like Swamajis maybe its time for some really strait-forward debate .For the sake of Srila Gurudevs mission lets risk ruffling a few feathers of the wealthy and powerful , those senior by initiation and even some of the sannyassis .Because the bottom line is execution of Srila Gurudevas order has been way sub-prime and the buck has to stop somewhere.
I honestly feel that a proportion of Srila Gurudevas more prominent managers and preachers have not supported the concept of ” working towards an international confederation of independently managed Vaisnava communities, each centred around a Mandir & Math” as you so aptly put it .
Perhaps subconsciously they felt their prominent positions would be eclipsed if innumerable ,dynamic, thriving temples sprang up around the world.Or perhaps they felt it would be a real headache to manage and very difficult to maintain control .
Anyway while a minority of us strongly feel that ” we’re working towards an international confederation of independently managed Vaisnava communities, each centred around a Mandir & Math. ” making that a universally accepted maxim of our society will only be possible if Krishna helps us and makes the impossible possible .
Radhe Radhe!!
Our social and political environment, all our wonderful freedoms notwithstanding, is extremely oppressive, and our western conditioning doesn’t foster independent thoughtfulness at. all.
Another of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, now departed once advised me that in this world mostly everyone is trying to pull others down and take their place, and then eventually they are pulled down, and so on.
He said that if we perceive an ‘issue’ and are not an ‘in-charge’ responsible for fixing it then our process is that we take that ‘issue’ to the responsible higher authority and leave it with him (or her, I suppose). Our duty is then done and we can be peaceful. We can also expect, hope and pray that the Lord will act, seeing that we have left the matter in His care by acting properly and not trying to “do” the “fixing” ourself.
I can’t see anyone really being responsible for what you have said, unless I’ve misunderstood something.
I agree whole heartedly with your conception , as you so nicely put it :- “As far as I can understand, we’re working towards an international confederation of independently managed Vaisnava communities, each centred around a Mandir & Math.
Over the last decade and a half some of Srila Gurudevas apparently prominent leaders have been opposed ,to varying degrees , to the establishment of maths , mandirs , ashrams etc around the world .Some overtly opposed but many disinterested in ,or apathetic to the concept .That may well be a substantially contributing factor why :- to quote Radhakanta Prabhu ” in the last 10 years fewer resources have been put into building devotional communities outside of India. The result is that we have no major temples, preaching centers, schools or communities outside India.”
So if a change of mentality is needed ,it is needed from the top down ,so that devotees who do want to fulfil Srila Gurus desires are encouraged and assisted rather than being stifled and undermined .I am sorry but to some degree that has been my subjective experience .Probably not so many of Srila Gurudevas seniour devotees /sannyassis/Bhakti Trust members etc have been guilty of that , but it shouldn’t be any.
Hari Bol Subal , are you the Subal from Murwillumbah? Its Mathurantha das here from The Garden Ashrama Murwillumbah .
Radhe Radhe!1
Dandavat pranams
Thank you for provoking this kind of reflection…
Good food for thought!